[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled  (Read 18607 times)

Stan Pat

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2017, 08:03:06 PM »
The word generation is used in many different ways, and people don't like to accept that if they have an agenda. I would suggest reading this article on the word generation.



 Wow! This should be required reading in every church.  &TY


You can tell it's a great article because it's also residing on so many other different websites and blogs, and is quoted in other articles. It makes perfect sense.

George

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 311
  • I'm a llama!
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2017, 06:18:24 PM »
It is the scripture itself that denies it happened in ad 70 because if you're going to take it literally as you claim you are, then ad 70 doesn't qualify. All the literal stones of the city and Temple were not thrown down where not one was left standing one upon another. If you're not going to take it literally, then at the very least stop saying you're taking it literally. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not. Ever heard of a hyperbole? It wasn't meant to be literal. So every stone didn't need to fall, it was the intent that mattered. Jerusalem was totally destroyed.

Frank Mortimer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2017, 09:17:38 PM »
Here's a quote you made George.

"We're consistent literalists. The difference between us and you is, when we say we take things literally, we mean literally."

So I guess you mean whenever you decide you want to take it literally. How can you whine and moan about Amillennialists spiritualizing the city when you turn right around and spiritualize Christ saying not one stone would be left one upon another in the city? On top of that inconsistency, you take the stones as literal, but the stones all being thrown down as not literal. And you call yourself a consistent literalist?

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2017, 09:41:00 AM »
>>>
stop saying you're taking it literally. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not. Ever heard of a hyperbole? It wasn't meant to be literal. So every stone didn't need to fall, it was the intent that mattered.
<<<

It wasn't meant to be taken literally? ...that's what we've been saying, and what you have been denying all these years. Now, when it obviously cannot be taken literally, suddenly you agree? :thinker:

Moreover, Hyperbole is defined as language that describes something as better or worse than it really is. So you are saying Christ made an extreme exaggeration when saying specifically that "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." so that wasn't to be taken literally "by a consistent literalist?" Not one stone upon another that is not thrown down "literally" means to you many stones would be left standing one upon another? That doesn't make much sense from a "consistent literalist" standpoint. Particularly when you claim that the prophecy of this city's destruction has to be taken literally, and that it is tortuous not to take it literally.  :Say_what:

Melanie is correct, you are attempting to have it both ways. Literal when it suits your purpose, and not literal when you get into trouble attempting to take the "literal" text describing the destruction of the city, fit. There's a word for that.

Here's your quote:
    So every stone didn't need to fall.
Here's Christ's Quote:
   Luke 19:44
   
  • "And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

In all seriousness, it seems that you are contradicting God's word if you insist on this being a prophesy of a consistent literal fulfillment. ...your words, not mine.

But the truth is, in that verse Christ is not talking to or about a literal city, but a literal people and their children. Cities don't give birth to children. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Reformed Baptist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • Reformed Baptists
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2017, 03:27:26 PM »
It wasn't meant to be taken literally? ...that's what we've been saying, and what you have been denying all these years. Now, when it obviously cannot be taken literally, suddenly you agree? :thinker:

Moreover, Hyperbole is defined as language that describes something as better or worse than it really is. So you are saying Christ made an extreme exaggeration when saying specifically that "there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." so that wasn't to be taken literally "by a consistent literalist?" Not one stone upon another that is not thrown down "literally" means to you many stones would be left standing one upon another? That doesn't make much sense from a "consistent literalist" standpoint. Particularly when you claim that the prophecy of this city's destruction has to be taken literally, and that it is tortuous not to take it literally.  :Say_what:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 :Goodpoint: In other words, it's literal until he says it's not literal. And it's not literal only when he's trapped and "forced" to admit it's not literal. That would be considered, private interpretation, or to interpret as we personally want to believe. As you've demonstrated, the only consistent interpretation is God's speaking of both the Holy Temple and the Holy City as spiritually His people that were left in ruins.





ZeroCool

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2017, 09:21:21 AM »
:Goodpoint: In other words, it's literal until he says it's not literal. And it's not literal only when he's trapped and "forced" to admit it's not literal. That would be considered, private interpretation, or to interpret as we personally want to believe. As you've demonstrated, the only consistent interpretation is God's speaking of both the Holy Temple and the Holy City as spiritually His people that were left in ruins.

So why is this view not more widely accepted? And why is Premillennial theology so widely accepted?


Kevin Wright

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 22
  • Always Reforming
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2017, 02:41:35 AM »
Premillennial theology came into popularity through the many false prophets teaching a literal understanding of nearly everything, plus national televangelists like Hal Lindsey, Jim Baker, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Copeland, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Kenneth E. Hagin, Joyce Meyer and the rest of the crazies that polluted the gospel of truth. That is why it is so widely accepted, and this biblical view not. Mass hysteria about Israel, prayer cloths and the antichrist.

Dan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • Dan the Man
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2017, 01:49:29 AM »
Yes, a biblical generation is around 40 years.

The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible.


Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.

Trevor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
  • Gender: Male
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2017, 04:31:17 AM »
Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.

Strong's doesn't know that a generation means 40 years. Strong's says the word "generation" there in Greek is γενεα (genea), which can also refer to a family, stock, nation. (Strongs, definition 2b) . It's easy to deny something when you don't actually study the Bible carefully like Tony does.
A Mind For Truth
Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
New York, NY

James Heckman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2017, 04:33:51 AM »
Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.

Strong's doesn't know that a generation means 40 years. Strong's says the word "generation" there in Greek is γενεα (genea), which can also refer to a family, stock, nation. (Strongs, definition 2b) . It's easy to deny something when you don't actually study the Bible carefully like Tony does. A generation can mean a lot of things.

Dan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • Dan the Man
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2017, 02:17:17 PM »
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible. That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord. They study the scriptures and they teach us from years of experience and learning.

Ephesians 4:11
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers."

He gave some to be teachers, and others to be learners.

Reformer

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1660
  • Reformed and Evangelical
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2017, 01:03:07 AM »
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible.

Dan, it's obvious that you think that way, unfortunate but obvious. We do have to study the Bible, that's how we know we are not deceived.


Quote
That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord.

The Scribes and Pharisees went to schools of higher learning also and look what it got them. Those who think like you are destined to end up the same way. As followers of the blind, led by the blind.

Lu 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?


Quote
They study the scriptures and they teach us from years of experience and learning.

And you've learned what from Dr. Walvoord? That there are 50 reasons for a Pretribulation rapture? 230 ways his prophesies concerning Russia and the Arab states was correct? How to make the kingdom Premillennial and earthly, and how Dispnsationalism is related to Progressive Revelation? No thanks. Study the scriptures yourselves people, and God will teach you through experience and learning.

1Jo 2:26
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Quote
He gave some to be teachers, and others to be learners.

We're all learners. What we learn, and from what camp we learn it is the real point.

Ro 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

What was written, the scriptures, were written for our learning, not for us to ignore it and blindly follow the ministers who can't tell Israel from Israel, Jew from Jew, Temple from Temple and Kingdom from Kingdom. Dispensationalism has nothing to teach any God fearing Christian.

Soldier

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2017, 09:10:25 AM »
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible. That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord.

Journey away from Premnillennialism and John Walvoord
by Sam Storms

Although I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was regularly exposed to Scripture, I can't recall ever hearing anything about a “millennial” kingdom, much less the variety of theories regarding its meaning and relationship to the second coming of Christ. Like many of my generation, my initial exposure to biblical eschatology was in reading Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth during the summer of 1970.

Not long thereafter I purchased a Scofield Reference Bible and began to devour its notes and underline them more passionately than I did the biblical text on which they commented. No one, as I recall, ever suggested to me there was a view other than that of the dispensational, pretribulational, premillennialism of Scofield. Anyone who dared call it into question was suspected of not believing in biblical inerrancy.

Questioning Premillennialism

Upon graduating from The University of Oklahoma in 1973, I began my studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. My professors were a Who's Who of dispensational premillennialism: John Walvoord (then president of DTS), Charles Ryrie (author of Dispensationalism Today and The Ryrie Study Bible), and J. Dwight Pentecost (author of perhaps the most influential text on the subject at that time, Things to Come), just to mention the more well-known. Anything other than the dispensational premillennial perspective as found in Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and taught in the many DTS classrooms was considered less than evangelical. The only thing I recall hearing about amillennialism, for example, was how dangerous it was given the fact that it was popular among theological liberals who didn't take the Bible very seriously.

Robert Gundry's book The Church and the Tribulation was released in 1973, the same year I began my studies at Dallas, and it fell like a theological atom bomb on the campus. Everyone was reading it, and more than a few were being drawn to its post-tribulational perspective on the timing of the rapture. Debates in the classroom, cafeteria, and elsewhere were abundant and quite heated. Someone obtained a copy of Daniel Fuller's PhD dissertation in which he critiqued the hermeneutics of dispensationalism, and more gasoline was thrown on the fire.

Upon my graduation from Dallas Seminary in 1977 I immediately immersed myself in a study of all aspects and schools of eschatological thought. Over the next few years, the two most influential and persuasive volumes I read were The Presence of the Future: The Eschatology of Biblical Realism by George Eldon Ladd (himself a historic premillennialist), and Anthony Hoekema's book The Bible and the Future (Hoekema was an amillennialist). It is worth noting here that the distinction between Israel and the church, on which dispensationalism is largely based, could not withstand either Ladd or Hoekema's relentless assault.

My Unpardonable Sin

It wasn't long before Ladd, Hoekema, and Gundry, together with a few others, had persuaded me that there is no basis in Scripture for a pre-tribulational rapture of the church. That was, in the eyes of many, bad enough. Indeed, I distinctly recall the horror (trust me, “horror” is by no means an exaggerated term to describe the reaction I received) in my church when I made it known that I could no longer embrace a pre-tribulation rapture. More than a few were convinced that I was well on my way into theological liberalism! But when in the early 1980s I abandoned premillennialism in all its forms, public reaction was such that you would have sworn I had committed the unpardonable sin. I'm not suggesting that all or even the majority of dispensational premillennialists feel this way today (I hope and pray that few do), but the atmosphere in the 1970s and 1980s was something less than amicable for those who departed from the accepted eschatological faith.

My departure from premillennialism and embrace of amillennialism was gradual and came as a result of two discoveries as I studied Scripture. First, I devoted myself to a thorough examination of what the New Testament said would occur at the time of Christ's second coming (or parousia). What I found was a consistent witness concerning what would either end or begin as a result of our Lord's return to the earth. Sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, and the inauguration of the New Heavens and New Earth would ensue. But why is this a problem for premillennialism? Good question.

Scriptural Challenges for Premillenialists

If you are a premillennialist, whether dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

• You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming.

• You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man.

• You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

So what's wrong with believing these things, asks the premillennialist? What's wrong is that these many things that premillennialists must believe (because of the way they interpret Scripture), the NT explicitly denies. In other words, in my study of the second coming of Christ I discovered that, contrary to what premillennialism requires us to believe, death is defeated and swallowed up in victory at the parousia, the natural creation is set free from its bondage to corruption at the parousia, the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately following the parousia, all opportunity to receive Christ as savior terminates at the parousia, and both the final resurrection and eternal judgment of unbelievers will occur at the time of the parousia. Simply put, the NT portrayals of the second coming of Christ forced me to conclude that a millennial age, subsequent to Christ's return, of the sort proposed by premillennialism was impossible.

The second factor that turned me from premillennialism to amillennialism was a study of Revelation 20, the text cited by all premillennialists in support of their theory. Contrary to what I had been taught and long believed, I came to see Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective.

My eschatological journey and biblical defense of amillennialism may now be examined in greater detail in my book, Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative (Mentor, 2013).

Terrell Meyer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2017, 06:49:27 PM »
 :o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist.  That just goes to show God will call his sheep out from the wolves anywhere. See, you learn something new every day.

John Walvoord may be academically well known, but anyone who s read his books can see his methodology is  amateurish at best. Why Premillennialists swear by him is beyond belief, considering the wild premises in his books.

It's obvious from the use of the term "generation of vipers" that Christ is not referring to just those people at that time, unless you thing he was saying this 40 years of vipers, as if there are no vipers after 40 years. To me, that doesn't make sense. Family of vipers makes sense and as other already said, fits perfectly with them being children of the devil. Christ was calling them the devil's family.

Psalms 58:3-4 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear."

This is the generation of vipers, a generation that will not pass until all be fulfilled.

David Knoles

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • I'm a llama!
Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2017, 08:52:14 PM »
Well then how do you explain Christ saying to that generation, his contemporaries, that he was a sign. Obviously generation meant those people who were there in Jerusalem and would be there for the next 40 years. What does a generation mean there?

"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."
Luke 11:30

A generation is 40 years.



 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]