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Author Topic: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled  (Read 17456 times)

NoMass

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2017, 04:07:18 AM »
If genea means contemporaries, then both the signs preceding Christ's coming and the parousia itself (at least partially) must occur within the span of a single generation – variously understood to mean between 20 and 80 years, with the majority of opinion favoring 30-40 years. Scholars who define genea in this way, arrive at one of the following interpretations of Matthew 24.34:

1. Christ was mistaken – he thought the parousia (coming) would occur in the first century, but it did not. (This view represents liberal theologians and skeptics. It is acknowledged, though not subscribed to, by France.)

2. Christ was referring to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in AD 70.

3. Christ was indicating the generation that would be alive when the signs reached the stage of final fulfillment.

Wanda

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2017, 07:47:43 AM »
:o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist.  That just goes to show God will call his sheep out from the wolves anywhere. See, you learn something new every day.

Reformer, Ernest Reisinger, a lot of very good Christians once were. Unfortunately, Dispensationalists are coddled in most Christian circles, it's refreshing that TW and some others don't play that game of "we're all good Christians with a simple difference of opinion" game.

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Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
by John H. Gerstner; 1991, 275 pp., Wolgemuth & Hyatt.
Reviewed by Ernest Reisinger

The long awaited, long-expected, and much-needed work on Dispensationalism has arrived.

I am most happy to write this little review, one reason being that I was held in the jaws of this warped system of theology for the first ten years of my Christian life. During that period I wore out three Scofield Bibles and was working on my fourth! For years I taught it with charts and maps.

Dr. J. I. Packer commends Gerstner's work in the following way: "In this book a clear-headed classical Calvinist challenges contemporary Dispensational Theology. Pussyfooting is not Dr. Gerstner's style; he values controversy as a way of clearing the air, and conducts it with bracing vigor. With skill and thorough knowledge he maps the geography of the gulf that lies between the two positions, and invites the reader to agree that Dispensationalism is seriously astray. All readers will be grateful to the author for clarifying the issues more precisely than any previous book has done. He sets out to show that Calvinism and Dispensationalism are radically opposed, and he proves his point."

Dr. Gerstner points out how Dispensationalism infiltrated the United Presbyterian Church of the North. Indeed this seems incredible because the Dispensational warped system of theology is diametrically opposed to covenant theology. He clearly points out the grave dangers of this system that has so many fine Christians and teachers deceived.

The Southern Presbyterian Church was not affected as much. Men like Robert Dabney wrote against this theology (See Dabney's Discussions, Vol. 1, p. 214, Banner of Truth Trust).

One of the many facets that Dr. Gerstner clears up is the claim of many, if not all, Dispensational teachers who tell us that they are four-point Calvinists. This book will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they are not Calvinistic at all -- not even on one point -- rather they are Arminian to the core on every point.

The author addresses the contemporary Lordship controversy. He gives the historical context of the controversy and clarifies the terms of the debate. He crumbles the Dispensational house on this point. I think it is fair to say that, by reading the whole book, one must conclude that "non-Lordship salvation" is only a child of two dangerous parents -- the father is Arminianism and the mother is Dispensational Antinomianism.

When the open-minded reader finishes this book he will agree with Charles Ryrie's statement in his Balancing the Christian Life: "The importance of this question cannot be overestimated in relation to both salvation and sanctification. The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is false and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel" (Gal. 1:6-9). It is another gospel. The question is, Which one is the biblical gospel? Which one is the apostolic gospel?

Many Calvinists will not agree with Dr. Gerstner on every point of his view of the atonement where he disagrees with some of the great men of the Westminster Theological Seminary.

I wish he would have given more pages to the doctrine of assurance and to the Dispensational perversions of it. I feel the same way in regard to the moral Law and Dispensationalism. What is said is very helpful but since these are two areas where Dispensationalism is in complete opposition to all the respected creeds and confessions, they could have warranted a bit more emphasis. This book is an absolute must for all serious Bible teachers and preachers.

This book may be secured from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, P.O. Box 613, Carlisle, PA 17013.

Robert Powell

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2017, 04:26:02 AM »
A generation is 40 years.


David, when God says he is in the generation of the righteous, what is he saying?


Robert Powell

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2017, 04:30:25 AM »
A generation is 40 years.

    Genesis 15:13
    And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

    And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

    And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

    But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

David,
Were the children of Israel serving their taskmasters in Egypt 160 years (4 of your generations) or 400 like the Lord prophesied? Why don't you ever answer a question? Is it because you can't answer all the contradictions that you make to scripture?

Reformer

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2017, 11:26:42 AM »
David,
Why don't you ever answer a question? Is it because you can't answer all the contradictions that you make to scripture?

Of course. No Dispensationalist, or Premillennialist for that matter, can effectively answer biblical questions addressing the germane questions we post because to do so contradicts the passages we post. That includes the vaunted Dr. John F. Walvoord (as evidenced in his debate against a Amillennialist theologian). Unless they want to indulge in a colossal twisting of the verses and claim that it means something it doesn't say. Which is often what they do anyway.

David knows that his 40 years (160 as you said) theory doesn't match the generations the Lord says Israel were in Egypt, but understanding this as the 4 families does. Here's a quote from Tony Warren's article on the chronology of the Patriarchs.

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They were promised to be in bondage 400 years, but in the fourth generation come out to take the land of the Amorites because of their sins. And as we saw in the record of the four generations in Egypt, according to God, that's exactly how many generations were in Egypt.
       The Generation of Levi
       The Generation of Kohath
       The Generation of Amram
       The Generation of Aaron
 

And they came out in the 4th generation (Aaron). 400 years in bondage in Egypt, 430 total years, 30 of which were spent not in bondage.  As quoted from the chronology of scripture:
       The Family of Levi
       The Family of Kohath
       The Family of Amram
       The Family of Aaron
They came out in the family of Aaron proving that God does not define a generation as 40 years. Yes, a generation can be 40 years, it can also be 100 years or 80 years, depending upon the Patriarch or family reference.

Reformer

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2017, 12:37:01 PM »
Everyone knows a generation is 40 years, this is nonsense to claim it means family. You got this nonsense from Tony Warren. Careful you are not led astray.


Generation is toldah {to-led-aw'}; from 3205; descent, i.e. family or figuratively ancestry or ancestral history; birth or genesis of something. Yes, even in the Old Tesament.

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Those Christians here who claim that a generation doesn't mean family, are actually very sloppy in their scholarship, which is typical of Premillennial theologians and their followers.

Looking at the context and declaration of Matthew saying "This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled," the family of evil is the only way it really can be understood in the light of everything Christ said there. It's the generation of evil. The second coming of Christ is the only time on this earth when this generation shall pass. And it's the only time that the blood of all the righteous slain from Adam to anyone else will be fall upon this wicked generation, as they are judged. taking this generation as 40 years makes no sense whatsoever.


ZeroCool

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2017, 05:12:26 PM »
You guys are taking me to school. I learn so much lurking here.  &TY

George

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2017, 02:11:49 AM »
:o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist. 

You never heard of the falling away?  :)

The fact is, 70 ad is an accepted interpretation of the prophecy, even among many, many Calvinist authors who agree the Jerusalem falling was fulfilled then when every stone was thrown down.

David Knoles

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2017, 11:49:10 AM »
Well, I can tell you that I'm not the least bit convinced by Tony's article. A generation means a generation, so those things did take place in A.D. 70. Just because Tony doesn't see that doesn't mean that it's not true. The signs which the Lord mentioned are found in Matthew 24:4-14 took place within that period. We will not take the time to discuss all these, but it is sufficient to say that every one of them was fulfilled within the forty-year span between the time of the Lord’s discourse and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Let me recommend three good sources of material in this connection:

J. Marcellus Kik, Matthew XXIV, (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1948)

Roy Deaver, “Matthew 24” in Premillennialism: True or False?, (Wendell Winkler, Ed., 1978, pp. 105ff)

Cecil May, “Matthew 24,” The Biblical Doctrine of Last Things, (David Lipe, Ed., 1984, pp. 115ff).

These are excellent study materials of this theme.

Reformer

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2017, 09:17:10 AM »
Well, I can tell you that I'm not the least bit convinced by Tony's article. A generation means a generation,

A generation meaning a generation is not the question, the question is, does "genea" always mean a generation or can it be used as a family, from its root genos?

Php 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Obviously it can and is used this way. Since we all stand in the midst of this crooked and perverse genea as children of God in the midst of the children of the Devil. Two families, only one crooked and perverse.


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so those things did take place in A.D. 70.

You can keep repeating what is untrue, but that doesn't make it become true to honest people. There were more than one stone left standing one upon another in the city of Jerusalem after A.D. 70, proving beyond any "reasonable" doubt that this was not the stones Christ was talking about.


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Just because Tony doesn't see that doesn't mean that it's not true.

It's not about what Tony sees, it's about what the Bible says must occur. You can't see something that doesn't exist, and since one stone was left standing one upon another, then a fulfillment clearly didn't take place in A.D. 70. Christ was not mistaken. And if you see no stones left standing in the city of Jerusalem from that time or even of the temple foundation wall, then you are dreaming and should wake up. Because to this day, those stones stand one upon another in Jerusalem. Just because you (and others) irrationally imagine that no stones are left standing, doesn't make it true. You can go to Jerusalem, see stones left standing one upon another, and then "pretend" they don't exist, but that's called "being delusional." So call it what it is.


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We will not take the time to discuss all these,

Of course not. Because then you've have to explain how you deny a present reality by means of a delusional fable passed down by a generation of those who don't understand authority of scripture. When scripture says not one stone, it means it. So then, the Temple and City that Christ referenced has not one stone left standing, it is completely gone, laid even with the ground, it's no more. And a rebuilding has taken place, with Christ the chief corner stone that others rejected. Tony's correct because he follows scripture, you follow Josephus and a long list of lemmings unschooled in prophecy.


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Let me recommend three good sources of material in this connection:

J. Marcellus Kik, Matthew XXIV, (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1948)

Roy Deaver, “Matthew 24” in Premillennialism: True or False?, (Wendell Winkler, Ed., 1978, pp. 105ff)

Cecil May, “Matthew 24,” The Biblical Doctrine of Last Things, (David Lipe, Ed., 1984, pp. 115ff).

These are excellent study materials of this theme.

I have a better recommendation. Go to the source, the Bible. Compare Scripture with Scripture, fable with reality, stone with stone, not one, with not one, and prophesy with prophesy. See if all the stones weren't thrown down, and Christ being the chief corner stone, and the rebuilding of a new temple and city introducing a new dispensation of Israel.

Ps 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

 Mt 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And why can't you recognize this truth of the stones, the Temple and the rebuilding? That is the question.

 1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Time to man up and accept the truth over Reformed, Evangelical and Premillennial traditions.

Erik Diamond

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2017, 06:56:23 PM »
 :amen:  Reformer!
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tim Norton

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2017, 11:39:37 PM »
Let me recommend three good sources of material in this connection:

J. Marcellus Kik, Matthew XXIV, (Presbyterian & Reformed, 1948)

Roy Deaver, “Matthew 24” in Premillennialism: True or False?, (Wendell Winkler, Ed., 1978, pp. 105ff)

Cecil May, “Matthew 24,” The Biblical Doctrine of Last Things, (David Lipe, Ed., 1984, pp. 115ff).

These are excellent study materials of this theme.

I have a better recommendation. Go to the source, the Bible.

Isn't it interesting how Christians continue to quote the thoughts of authors as if their ideas overrule what the bible actually says? Because someone said it's an exaggeration, we don't have to understand it as not one stone on top of another? Wow, this is acceptable? How is that sound theology?  This runs the gamut whether they are Reformed Christians, liberal Christians or evangelicals. Their retort seems always to be about what someone else wrote instead of "this is what I read in the Bible."

I'm not saying you can't reference book authors, but come on!  Their words cannot make God's word null and void. If Christ said not one stone, then that's what he meant. The only question is, what stones are n view, since obviously God references spiritual stones of a spiritual Temple. The question should be, which stones perfectly fit scripture and which stones don't.

Just ask yourself, when the foundation stone was rejected, what happened to all the other stones, and why does scripture talk about a rebuilding at Pentecost? Just use your head, that's all we ask.

Amos 9:11-12
"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this".

Acts 5:16-017
 "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things".

Did you see any tabernacle and city rebuilt and Gentiles welcomed with Christ's death and resurrection? I did. Not a literal city or sanctuary or Gentiles literally coming to Jerusalem, but a restoration that has nothing to do with national Israel's physical stone's in the middle east.

And the generation that destroyed the city and sanctuary? The same generation that killed Abel, the prophets and Christ, and that certainly wasn't a contemporary 40 year period after Christ died.

Reformed Baptist

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2017, 10:08:15 AM »
 :iagree: with you guys. It just doesn't fit unless you force it, and that's not how prophesy works. When it belongs, it fits. When it doesn't, it's contradictory.

George

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2017, 07:53:19 PM »
It doesn't need to fit, it's a hyperbole. It just needs to be explained so you can understand it, and Dr. John Walvoord does an excellent job of that. What you don't understand is that all the stones didn't need to be thrown down, it's enough that the city was in ruins and the historical record shows it was destroyed. The problem with you liberal, amillennialist, reformers is that you reject God's people Israel and their restoration. Here's what John said about that.
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Unfortunately, the study of the future of Israel has been obscured by controversy in other areas of Biblical theology. Liberal or neo-orthodox theologians, who do not accept the infallibility of the Scriptures, tend to ignore what the Bible teaches about Israel. Among conservatives there is a radical division concerning the meaning of Biblical revelation in relation to Israel. Some contemporary amillenarians deny any future to Israel as such and consider the promises to Israel as being fulfilled in the church in the present age. Others believe that there will be a spiritual restoration of Israel, but tend to disregard the geographic and political aspects of Israel's promises (John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962) p. 9.).

Erik Diamond

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2017, 08:42:29 PM »
It looks like the premillennialists are using "hyperbole" as an excuse to defend their faulty doctrine.  They are so blind. Sad.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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