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Author Topic: Sacrifice of Oblation  (Read 12699 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2005, 11:15:10 AM »
Agreed, Dean!

Friends, let go over Daniel 9:25 to 27 once more time:


Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Verse 25 above was talking about the the restore of Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince.  UNTO the Messiah the Prince does not stop at Christ's birth, but also included His baptism and earthly ministry. UNTIL He will be cut off AFTER 62 weeks as next verse states: 

Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This is the death of Messiah! The only time 70th convenant week could start is AFTER the 62 weeks! That is after the cut off of the Messiah.  It happened at the Cross. Let read the next verse: 

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This was how the convenant week begun, at the cross, when Christ was cut off.  This can also confirmed by Hebrew. 

Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Jesus Christ is our mediator of the new testament, and the new testament cannot start without the death of Christ.  The confirmation of the convenant week only must start after the 62 week. It did not happen at the baptism of Christ as some supposed, BECAUSE He was not cut off YET!  Hebrew 9:17 required Christ to die so that the convenant or testament could be strengthen or confirmed. Upon His death, Jesus cried, "It is finished". It is done for. It is being confirmed! The New Testament era have begun. 

Daniel 9:27 also stated that in the 'midst of the week', or sometime later during the convenant week, God will cause sacrifice and the oblation to cease. Why? Because He has finished sealing all of His People (Revelation 7:3) so that the sacrifice will no longer be needed and the corproate part of the church has become more unfaithful. The abomination of desolation and the period called the 'Great Tribulation', as Jesus warned in Matthew 24:21, will begin.  That period will only be a short time, until the consummation. Until God decides to cut Great Tribulation short for the sake of His Elects on earth, Matthew 24:22.

Readers, if you want to learn more about Daniel 9:25-27, I strongly suggest that you read Tony Warren's study that you can find here. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/dan9.html

Peace,
Erik Diamond

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Baerchild

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2005, 01:00:15 PM »

       I believe that the New Testament era began at the cross. The period between the cross/resurrection and Pentecost must be included in the New Testament  era (70th week), EVEN THOUGH Pentecost "officially" launched the New Testament "church age". ( Remember how that we learned that the Old Testament sabbath was changed to the  New Testament Sunday "sabbath" in reading about that first Sunday when Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre?  This was BEFORE Pentecost ... yet obviously STILL on the New Testament side of the cross).

      The Lord's Baptism and His earthly ministry is NOT included within the New Testament era. The Cross is the one GRAND event which separates the Old and New Testament eras ... the veil of the temple was rent in two, from top to bottom, as a testament to this truth.

      Jim, the 69 "weeks" were on the Old Testament side of the cross ... when God was dealing in types, shadows, figures, etc.  I don't know of anyone who believes the entire 70th week to be literal in nature ... HOW CAN IT BE???  Also, as Harold Camping says in his pamphlet ("The Seventy Weeks of Daniel Nine"), "It is the prerogative of God to use numbers as he desires". ;)
 
Hey Dean,

Here's some earlier comments from Kohathe in this thread:

From reply #9, "I have always agreed that the covenant week began at the time Christ was baptized.  That was when Christ was announced the Lamb of God, that was when Christ began his early ministry and proclaimed the acceptable year of the Lord.  Therefore the sacrifice and oblation ceased at the cross when the veiled of the temple rent in two because Christ came as the sacrificial Lamb who whose sacrifice was once and for all and ended all sacrifices." 

From reply #20, "My question then to Erik or who would want to respond.  What do you do with the 3 1/2 years between the end of the 69th week and the cross?  Do we just skip that and start the covenant week at the cross?  The 70 weeks should be consecutive, since there was no break going from the 7 weeks to the 62 week, why would there be a break from the 69 week to the cross?  I hope Im making this clear.   And it's interesting that the time span between the end of 69th week and the cross is exactly 3 1/2 years or the middle of one week."

From reply #26, "...Christ's ministry on earth has to be included in the covenant week.  We know that Christ selected the 12 disciples, and saved a number of people BEFORE the cross, if it weren't for this part of Christ's ministry there would be no church... The people who became saved during His ministry also make up the "holy city" so we can't cut that off and begin a covenant week at the cross without including this time period."

From #46, "I did a little searching last night and discovered two verses that might help. Romans 15:8 (beginning of covenant week) and, and 1Corinthians 1:8 (end of covenant week)"

Quite a bit of time was used in this thread to point out that "covenant" and "testament" are interchangeable words.  In trying to make this point, the discussion got tedious at times but some of us may have concluded that God would have us look at the word "covenant", as translated from the Hebrew, as "testament" in Daniel 9:27..."He will confirm the testament..."  And the question still remains, How can you have His testament without His testimony?  His very presence confirms The Promise in part, no?  From about #66 we get into the distinction between The Promise/New Testament and the Old Covenant -- interesting to note that the New Testament is actually older than The Old Testament.

Also, if all of the other weeks are calculated to be literal periods of time, why isn't the 70th week of Daniel 9 also literal? Once we understand that the 1,000 years of Revelation 20 are not included in Daniel 9:27, things begin to clear up...hopefully :-\

Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Let me include it in Daniel 9:27 for your interest:

And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
Jim

Trevor

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2012, 04:19:38 PM »
WoW! What a Great thread. I learned more today reading this thread than I learned about the Covenant being confirmed by whole life. I wish I had been here when it was posted. A little heated and off track at times, but definitely rewarding in the end. Thanks to all who participated.

A follow up on the belief that a sacrifice of oblation or offering could only be without blood. That cannot be true. Because of verses like this.

"And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offer it of the herd; whether it be a male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD". Leviticus 3:1

So to Baerchild, I believe that is incorrect. Sacrifice and offering can be with shedding of blood.
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Beechwood

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2012, 01:36:45 AM »
Trevor,
  I find that every thread where I learned something, there was someone challenging what scripture says, and someone supporting his view from scripture and defending the faith. This one was no different. The key is not to be stubborn, and accept what scripture says even when it contradicts what we have learned.

One again, I think it comes down to how we understand scripture. Causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease Spiritually, or physically? Because if Physical, it didn't stop at the cross. The Physical Jews were still doing it. If Spiritual, it didn't stop at the cross, because the Spiritual Jews are still doing it. For us, it cannot end until there remains no more Israelites to be atoned for by this sacrifice. As long as the gospel hasn't been silenced, sacrifice and offering continues.

Hebrews 13:15-16
"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased."
 
This is the sacrifice where God is pleased, not with killing animals and sprinkling blood on physical altars in Israel. Those who attempt to read the Bible in a physical manner, as physical kings, 1000 year reign, Physical Feasts, Temple, Israel, Sacrifices, etc. There will always be this division between those of us who God allows to understand that he spoke spiritually, and those who keep looking at the world for Physical fulfillments.

Sacrifice and oblation will cease when there is no longer the gospel Spirit sealing the saints. This will occur when the Antichrist spirit enters the holy temple to sit and rule there so there is no truth in the Church anymore.

David Knoles

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #109 on: July 24, 2012, 03:20:55 PM »
First of all, Erik and that guy Kenneth are always spiritualizing away the oblation and reign of Christ, so  Baerchild was just trying to straighten them out about taking things physically. As to the subject at hand, here is a good article explaining it.

http://www.moresureword.com/oblation.html

When you spiritualize the rebuilding of the Temple and the sacrifices and offerings, you know you will run into trouble. It's actually an attack on the Jews.




Erik Diamond

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2012, 01:17:16 AM »
  • Quote
    When you spiritualize the rebuilding of the Temple and the sacrifices and offerings, you know you will run into trouble. It's actually an attack on the Jews.

    David,

    You still don't get it.  Lord Jesus was not speaking of the physical temple then standing.  He was just thrown the buyers and sellers out of the Temple, and the Jewish leaders were asking how Jesus has the authority to do this. What did Jesus response?

John 2:19
  • Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
You, like the Jews, might think Jesus was talking about physical temple, but you have carnal mind.  Jesus spoke in metaphors, allegories, and parables.  When Christ speaks about the Temple being destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days, they only were thinking about earthly stones and how long it took for those stones to be rebuild in 46 literal years!  It is BECAUSE they did not have the eyes to see, or the ears to hear. They were Spiritually blind.  The Jews protested and Christ explained:

John 2:19-21
  • Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
  • Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
  • But he spake of the temple of his body.
Jesus corrected them by saying Christ was not talking about a literal temple, but HIS BODY which REPRESENTS congregation Israel! The literal temple was ONLY A TYPE, pointing to True! Christ "IS" Israel!  The Jews DID destroy the temple by having Messiah the Prince being CUT OFF!  This was the end of their old testament congregation!  They no longer represents the Kingdom of God.  Why don't you double check with Daniel 9 and see what God actually talked about:

Dan 9:26
  • And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The people of the Prince Messiah is Jews at that time when Christ were cut off! They did come and destroy the city and the sanctuary in which Christ's body represented!  The moment they killed Messiah the Prince, the temple was destroyed! It was NOT the literal temple but their congregation which Christ body REPRESENTED!   

Please notice that Jesus will raise it up in 3 days. What was it?  Literal temple? No, he was still talking about HIS BODY which still represents the congregation of Israel. The question is, which congregation is it? 

Acts 15:14-15
  • Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
  • And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
  • After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
  • That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
This is the NEW TESTAMENT congregation now filled with the GENTILES.  This  temple has ALREADY being rebuild with Gentiles coming in!  Not literal temple with literal stones at all!   Now you should be able to see the shift of God's Kingdom representation from Old Testament Congregation to the New.  Didn't you ever READ the Scriptures and LISTEN to what God actually says:

Matthew 21:42-43
  • "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same isbecome the head of the corner:this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
  • Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The builders were the Jews, the ones who have rejected Messiah the Prince! This SAME STONE is Christ who became the corner stone of NEW BUILDING! It is not a literal building at all!  It is still Christ's body being rebuilt with Gentiles coming in.  The old testament congregation has fell at the Cross and the representative for the kingdom of God was taken from old testament congregation (mainly Jews) and given to a holy nation which "IS" now new testament congregation (mainly Gentiles)!  THIS IS THE BODY OF CHRIST! 

 So what Bible proof do you have, David, that Christ was talking his body supposed to be a literal Jewish building?!  It is because you do not have the understanding of "types, shadows, and figures" which God used in the Old Testament.  Christ, their Messiah the Prince, spoke about HIS BODY which was indeed DESTROYED by his own people (Jews) which represented the fall of the old testament congregation at the Cross, but in THREE DAYS, Christ did raise (rebuild) it....this time with the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION where CHRIST is NOW the CHIEF CORNER STONE of THAT BUILDING. It is in fact, a spiritual building!


Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

David Knoles

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2012, 09:21:32 AM »
the Jewish leaders were asking how Jesus has the authority to do this. What did Jesus response?

Erik

You people are always against the Jews. You accuse the Jews of killing Christ and that the Gentile Church took the place of Israel in God's plan. This type of Anti-Semitism is Antichrist according to what we read. That's why I gave you all the article. It shows that clearly.

---

This is extremely important for believers to understand. The morning and evening oblation has nothing to do with sin, blood, or the work of Messiah. The lambs slain for the morning and evening oblation affirm that the God of Israel is the only true God and owner of the fullness of the earth because He created it. The apostles and others in the temple, who knew Messiah, also knew that the morning and evening oblation on the temple mount affirmed God's ownership of the fullness of the whole earth because He had also redeemed it.

We dare not join with the antichrist when he will soon go to Jerusalem to stop this morning and evening oblation. There is nothing which God or man could devise which flies more squarely in the face against the new world religious system of the antichrist called the Global Ethic.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

It is the Antichrist that will soon go to Jerusalem to stop the sacrifice and morning and evening oblation.

Beechwood

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2012, 10:40:28 AM »
I have always agreed that the covenant week began at the time Christ was baptized.  That was when Christ was announced the Lamb of God, that was when Christ began his early ministry and proclaimed the acceptable year of the Lord. 

That's not biblical nor logical. We have to at least understand that common sense dictates that if Christ makes strong a covenant for one week, then the act of "making strong" must occur at the beginning of the week. Or half the week went by without being made strong. One cannot make strong a covenant for one week if the act of making strong does not occur until the middle of the week. So Tony, Erik and the rest have to be correct in their eschatology. The covenant week must start at Christ's death.

 Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".

And in the middle of the week He (Christ Himself) removes the sacrifice and offering for or because of the overspreading of abomination. Are we in that time or near it?



David Knoles

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2012, 06:06:44 PM »
Beechwood, Baerchild has it wrong thinking it was before Christ died and Erik has it wrong thinking it happened. Sacrifice and offering will cease when the time of Messiah is to come again. Then the Jews will turn to Christ.

David Knoles

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2012, 06:11:16 PM »
You still don't get it.  Lord Jesus was not speaking of the physical temple then standing.

That's your opinion erik. I don't agree with it. He said look at these buildings.


Quote
Jesus corrected them by saying Christ was not talking about a literal temple, but HIS BODY

That's a different matter.


Quote
Dan 9:26
  • And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


The people of what Prince? Could it be the prince of darkness?

 Ephesians 2:2
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"



Reformer

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2012, 09:40:15 AM »

That's your opinion erik. I don't agree with it. He said look at these buildings.


And why did he say that? Was it to tell them God was so mad that he would take his wrath out on a pile of stones? Or to illustrate that these stones of this supposed great Temple of God's people mean absolutely nothing, and it is them that would be the stones thrown down with not one remaining? And sure enough, the entire Old Testament congregation fell, never to rise again. Still, God provided a miraculous rebuilding with Christ, the stone they rejected, as the chief corner stone.

 Ac 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The problem with Premillennialists and Dispensationalists is that they have their eyes on the physical examples, and not the true. Physical sacrifices and oblations, which were the examples, not the true. Physical reigns in Jerusalem, which were the examples, not the true. Physical holy lands in the middle east, which were the example, not the true. And physical Temples, which were the example, not the true.

Erik is right, you just don't get it!


Quote
Quote
Jesus corrected them by saying Christ was not talking about a literal temple, but HIS BODY

That's a different matter.

How so? You don't think Jesus uses the physical to illustrate the spiritual?

Quote from Tony Warren:
  "Jesus had just thrown the buyers and sellers out of the Holy Temple saying they had made God's house of prayer, a den of thieves, and the Jews ask him what "sign" He could give showing he had the authority to do this, and Christ answered, "destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up."

Christ doesn't follow your strict rules of separating Physical and Spiritual. On the contrary, he used the Physical to illustrate the spiritual.


Quote
The people of what Prince? Could it be the prince of darkness?

No! It is the ONLY Prince being talked about in that context. Scripture out of context is pretext. The Only Prince we read about in that context of Daniel is Messiah the Prince. To inject a totally different Prince there that isn't named, defined or spoken about is dishonest.

Reformer

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #116 on: July 26, 2012, 09:46:22 AM »
Beechwood, Baerchild has it wrong thinking it was before Christ died and Erik has it wrong thinking it happened. Sacrifice and offering will cease when the time of Messiah is to come again. Then the Jews will turn to Christ.

Sacrifice and offering will cease in the midst of the New Testament period, for the purpose of ushering in the great tribulation and fall of the Church. It is a time of famine of hearing the word of God, because there is no more sacrifice and offering. After which, Christ will return.


David Knoles

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2013, 08:18:40 AM »
Beechwood, Baerchild has it wrong thinking it was before Christ died and Erik has it wrong thinking it happened. Sacrifice and offering will cease when the time of Messiah is to come again. Then the Jews will turn to Christ.

Sacrifice and offering will cease in the midst of the New Testament period, for the purpose of ushering in the great tribulation and fall of the Church. It is a time of famine of hearing the word of God, because there is no more sacrifice and offering. After which, Christ will return.

Do you offer sacrifice? Have you ever killed a Lamb? Then Sacrifice and offering ceased a long time ago.

Tony Warren

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Re: Sacrifice of Oblation
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2013, 01:22:25 PM »
>>>
Do you offer sacrifice? Have you ever killed a Lamb? Then Sacrifice and offering ceased a long time ago.
<<<

Christ's death was because of us, and we offer sacrifices daily--Or we should. The daily/continual sacrifice of the gospel. It's actually become more a forgotten tradition these days as, other jobs, education, politics, finances, friends, possessions and our own welfare have become more important.

...generally speaking.

Hebrews 13:15
  • "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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