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Author Topic: Did Moses and Elijah Die?  (Read 11488 times)

Oneil

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2004, 12:30:10 PM »
Quote
I think it is then most probably, that Elijah didn't die in the whirlwind; but was just transported to another location; so as to allow Elisha to get out from under his shadow....and this will allow the most plain and common sense rendering of the 'letter passage';

But that's the stumbling block. It's a big assumption on your part that Elijah was not taken up into heaven, when scripture says he was. It didn't say he went flying around the heavens, it said into heaven. You say it's tradition that the church believes he went into heaven, but I don't follow tradition. I think the plain sense of the text is that he was taken by God up into heaven. Talk about the common sense rendering, that is what most people see as the common sense rendering. Now whether he died or not is up for debate, but most all of us agree that the common sense rendering is that he went up into heaven. And not just flew around the heaven (sky) and was dropped off somewhere. I think that falls into the category of conjecture. I think you make a mistake in saying it's just because of our tradition. I looked at the scriptures carefully, and am open for any biblical proof that he didn't go up into heaven.



Dave Taylor

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2004, 05:42:41 PM »
Let's look at some different angles.

Depending on 'which heaven' was the author's intent; makes a huge impact on this event.

1) The 1st heaven, home of the birds, is a reasonable choice; since we are dealing with a whirlwind...that is where they exist.  If someone was taken up into a whirlwind, then because of the storm, wind, and clouds; they would easily go out of sight.  The only contextual point that is given in the passage to which heaven is 'the whilrwind' which don't occur in Heavens #2 & #3; only the 1st Heaven.  Considering the context, I don't see this being a big assumption.
2) I think we can rule out the 2nd heaven (outerspace) since there is no context whatsoever for it.
3) If we consider the 3rd heaven, then I believe scripture is adamant that it could not have been bodily; but would have had to have been in the spirit/soul only and would have been the result of either 'a vision' or death.

While you believe #1 is not the most common sense view; I find it to be; because of where whirlwinds naturally occur (1st heaven) and it allows Elijah to remain alive bodily; and be able to write the letter of 2 Chronicles years later; which is the most natural and contextual reading of that passage.

I do not believe scripturally; the idea of Elijah not dying, is untendable.

So, we may disagree on whether or not he died at this event; and which heaven he was taken into.

What can we agree on?

Can we agree on:
1) At some point in history past, Elijah did physically die? 
2) If Elijah went to the 3rd Heaven, he had to die; and only His soul could have made the trip not his mortal body?
3) If Elijah only went up into the 1st Heaven, he could have survived the event; and written the 2 Chronicles letter later; as it states.  This would also explain why they were looking for him....If you saw your friend get sucked up into a tornado, afterwards you would probably get a group and try to look for them too; because that is the nature expectation of the event; you wouldn't have expected them to be sucked all the way to the 3rd heaven would you?
And that is just how Elisha and the other saints reacted...they put together a search in the area.

Perhaps others can share their insights and recommend some other considerations we may have not mentioned or may have missed.




Kenneth White

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2004, 06:31:25 PM »
You all may also want to consider this. This is what I remember from a study by Tony Warren about this issue.

 2 Ki 2:8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
 9  And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

This is a picture of coming into the promised land, just as the lord did with Moses when they crossed over on dry land through the red sea from Egypt. And so seeing this is the case, it would appear to me that it is more likely that Elijah did go up into heaven, as the continuation of the type.

 2Ki 2:1  And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

No offense meant to you Dave, since I respect your study habits, but to me the common sense rendering of this seems to be he went up into heaven to be with the Lord. Also the chariots of fire seem to illustrate clearly the presence of the Lord to carry him to heaven.

 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It's unlikely in my opinion that the Lord sent chariots of fire symbolizing his great glory, to usher Elijah a few miles away. That's just my view on it. That's not to say your view is not valid, just to say the other view seems more valid to me from the whole context of these scriptures.

I also took the liberty of looking up every single verse that says "Into Heaven" and every single one spoke not of the sky, but of the heaven where God is. So letting scripture define scripture I would say that is pretty impressive evidence that he went into that heaven. Here are all those verses including the ones of elijah Elijah. So it would actually be deviating from the normal to say that this phrasiology does not mean the third heaven. Every word we know is divinely inspired. Notice how every one without exception speak of this heaven.

 2Ki 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
 Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
 Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
 Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
 Mr 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
 Lu 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
 Lu 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
 Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
 Ac 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
 Ac 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
 Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
 Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
 1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Looks like it definitely means into the heaven where God dwells.

Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dave Taylor

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2004, 09:52:56 PM »
OK, going in that direction a bit; how do we reconcile 'the manner' of Elijah going to the 3rd heaven?

1) Did flesh and blood go into Heaven?  (I don't think that is scriptural)

2) Did his flesh and blood get translated into a glorified body?  (It isn't stated, and it would usurp Christ, which I believe scrpturally is the first of that type.)

3) Did his body rise; but only his spirit ascend into the 3rd heaven; and his body was 'dealt with' (for lack of a better phrase) so that somewhere, it returned to the dust of the ground to await the resurrection?

4) Another view we haven't considered?




judykanova

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2004, 04:06:34 AM »
Judy, two of your points I would like to comment on. ...


The KJV 'Elias-NT' is the same as the OT-Elijah; not Elisha.  So when Matthew and John spoke of 'Elias-NT' they were referring to Elijah; not Elisha; So if you want to say "Elias, who wrote ‘in the spirit of Elijah’" you are saying the same person wrote on his own behalf.

So when 2 Chronicles plainly tells us that the letter was written to king Jehoram from Elijah; I think we should accept that verse for what it says...nothing in the context of that verse implies anything from Elisha.

I think it is then most probably, that Elijah didn't die in the whirlwind; but was just transported to another location; so as to allow Elisha to get out from under his shadow....and this will allow the most plain and common sense rendering of the 'letter passage'; and will also fit with the similar example we find in the NT where the Lord relocates Philip bodily from one location to another; to serve his will in that particular instance.

Dave,  thanks for the correction -- I had forgotten about this translation difference between the OT Hebrew and NT Greek with regards to certain names, and also did not pay close enough attention to the spelling difference between Elisa and Elisha.  But that does not negate the point I was trying to make -- namely, that the Bible provides ample examples where certain people are used as 'types'.  Notably Elijah typifies the prophets of God, whereby we are told that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, just as we are told that Elijah's spirit was also given to Elisha .  So then we have both consistency and harmony if we consider that the letter written to king Jehoram was written by Elisha, particularly given the earlier account of Elijah being taken "into heaven".

Ki 2:9
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10  And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12  And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.  And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
14  And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15  And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
16  And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
17  And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not


Notice the 'double portion' of Elijah's spirit that Elisha was given.  Notice Elijah's mantle (covering) that Elisha assumed.  Notice how Elijah's 'spirit' was readily apparant to others who looked upon Elisha.  Why then would we not consider that the Lord would call Elisha, Elijah -- much in the same way that John the Baptist was called Elijah in the NT?  This is further supported by that view that Elijah was indeed taken "into heaven"  to be with the Lord -- letting the Bible defines it's own terms.

Also, regarding your stance that Elijah was taken just "so as to allow Elisha to get out from under his shadow"...  You realize of course that this is speculation on your part.  I don't know why the Lord took Elijah, but it would be for His purposes that go well beyond this human rationale.


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Point 2)

I am fine with the premise that Elijah's spirit is in Heaven with the Lord.  However, I cannot biblically accept the idea that Elijah was bodily in heaven with the Lord.

The NT teaches us that Jesus Christ was the firstborn of creation and the first fruits of the resurrection; Acts 26 goes so far as to tell us the Jesus was 'The First Resurrection' (Protos Anastasis).
I Corinthians tells us that Jesus was the first of a kind to be change and made into an immortal, incorruptible, and glorified body.

Elijah; sorry bud; you can't ascend into Heaven bodily several hundred years before Jesus Christ....He is the first to do that.
Elijah's spirit, per Eccelesiates 12:6 'returned to God who gave it'; but his body; must have seen corruption and awaits its resurrection; as all men save Christ do; who were ever born.

And as oneil said, flesh and blood cannot enter in.

I agree with Oneil on this point and had said originally that "indeed we live in corrupt bodies that cannot possibly be accepted in the presence of a most Holy God."

But I had also raised the possibility that Elijah’s body was transformed which I no longer think is credible --  given what Oneil and subsequently you and others have noted regarding Christ being the 'first born from the dead'.  So that raises the possibility that Elijah's body was consumed, and he entered "into heaven" in his spirit essence only.

Consider again this portion of the passage you presented.

2Ki 2:11-13
11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12  And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.


We know that fire often signifies judgement; but it is also associated sometimes with purification and salvation; (much like God's Word which is a two-edged sword).
Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Num 31:23 
Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

Heb 12:28-29
28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29  For our God is a consuming fire.


In this passage  we see very similar language regarding the Lord coming with a 'chariot', 'fire', 'whirlwind', ... except in this case, the context is one of judgment:
Isa 66:15-16 
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16  For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.


I also ran across this passage:
2Ki 13:14 
Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.


Please note this same phraseology --  'O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel' --  seems to be an idiom of that day, associated with physical death??  It's only found twice in the Bible in reference to Elijah's (probable) death, and with Elisha's (unquestionable) death.

So, I think most agree that Elijah could not have entered "into heaven" in the flesh.  And based on the feedback of others, I no longer hold to the possibility of his body being transformed; but rather I think we may also consider that his flesh was 'consumed' by God's fire, such that the only thing remaining was his 'pure' spiritual essense.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Dave Taylor

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2004, 12:09:49 PM »
Judy,
I understand and agree with the point you are making about the spirit of Elijah; as compared to John the Baptist; and then applied to Elisha.

However, when you state:
Quote
Notice the 'double portion' of Elijah's spirit that Elisha was given.  Notice Elijah's mantle (covering) that Elisha assumed.  Notice how Elijah's 'spirit' [as readily apparant to others who looked upon Elisha.  Why then would we not consider that the Lord would call Elisha, Elijah

I would think the reason the letter from Elijah should not be 'reconsidered' (which is what you are suggesting we do) to be rather from 'Elisha' is because of two things.

1) The word plainly says the letter is from Elijah, not from Elisha, not from someone in the spirit of Elijah, and no context in that passage to denote anyone other than Elijah
2) Does the writer of 2 Chronicles use this technique that you propse (Elijah really means Elisha) anywhere else in the book?  If this is a literary technique we find the writer of 2 Chronicles doing; and explaining throughout his book; then it would have precidence to stand on.  However, it appears to be this one single isolated instance; and an isolated instance that does not give any explaination or instruction to interpret it in that manner.

In 2 Kings, we see scriptures where Elisha as mentioned referred to specifically 'in the spirit of Elijah'. 
In the New Testament, we see Elijah (Elias) specifically explained as a symbolic reference with John the Baptist.

However, in 2 Chronicles; where the letter is written to the king from Elijah; we do not have this. 

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, and perhaps we will just have to leave this portion to others to discuss; but I see nothing in 2 Chronicles that instructs us to re-interpret the letter to be from Elisha instead of the stated Elijah.  (unless it was a scrible error; of which I would doubt..I checked the LXX just to be sure, and it too rendered Elijah)




I agree with your point that when I said, "to allow Elisha to get out from under his shadow" was speculation on my part.

I based that off of the scriptures that show Elisha wouldn't leave Elijah's side; "As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee" each time when Elijah went to Bethel, then Jericho, then Jordan....Elisha  didn't mind Elijah, and went with him anyway.  That was the basis for why Elijah was 'moved' to another location, via the whirlwind...so Elisha wouldn't follow, and would begin his own ministry; using that double portion of spirit.

Quote
So, I think most agree that Elijah could not have entered "into heaven" in the flesh.  And based on the feedback of others, I no longer hold to the possibility of his body being transformed; but rather I think we may also consider that his flesh was 'consumed' by God's fire, such that the only thing remaining was his 'pure' spiritual essense.

I would agree that that is a much more tendable and acceptible answer than a transformation or mortal body trip to heaven.

If that is true, then Elijah did die, and his body did return (albeit in ashes) to the ground to await the resurrection; and his spirit returned to God whom gave it.  That keeps the Elijah story back in sync with the Bible; and removes the common traditional view of bodily assumption.

The only problem I still have grief with, is the letter....I will dig some more in Kings and Chronicles and see if there is any other possibilites we may have missed.




andreas

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2004, 09:11:57 PM »
<<<But that's the stumbling block. It's a big assumption on your part that Elijah was not taken up into heaven, when scripture says he was. It didn't say he went flying around the heavens, it said into heaven. You say it's tradition that the church believes he went into heaven, but I don't follow tradition. I think the plain sense of the text is that he was taken by God up into heaven. Talk about the common sense rendering, that is what most people see as the common sense rendering. Now whether he died or not is up for debate, but most all of us agree that the common sense rendering is that he went up into heaven. And not just flew around the heaven (sky) and was dropped off somewhere. I think that falls into the category of conjecture. I think you make a mistake in saying it's just because of our tradition. I looked at the scriptures carefully, and am open for any biblical proof that he didn't go up into heaven.>>>


Elijah was taken by a whirlwind "into heaven",yet  some 900 years after the event, Jesus said,"no man has ascended up to heaven",John3:13,and since the word of God does not contradict itself,Elijah did not go to the third heaven.The third heaven is what Jesus calls "His father's house" John 14:2 ,Paul calls paradise,Luke 23:43,and" the heaven of heavens" Deuteronomy 10:14. He could not have gone to the second heaven,where the planets and stars are,Genesis1:14-17,15:5,22:17,for there are no whirlwinds there.Therefore he was taken to the first heaven,Genesis1:20, Lamentations 4:19.
The Hebrew word for heaven is shamayim.This same word is used to describe the sky. Genesis 7:3, "fowls of the air".also in Genesis 7:23,"fowl of the heaven".The word sky and heaven are interchanged from the same Hebrew word. Psaim 8:8.
Another word for the first heaven is shachaq.Again this is interchanged with the word sky.Psalm 89:6,as heaven and Deuteronomy 33:26,as sky.
Why was he taken away?
"knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day?"Kings 2:3.Elijah was being replaced by Elisha.
He was not killed, for we have the letter of 2 Chronicles 21:12,and surely Elijah did not send that from heaven.Elijah was simply taken to another place,and why not?
 "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea". Acts 8:39-40
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di˘ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

judykanova

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2004, 03:07:31 AM »
Judy,
I understand and agree with the point you are making about the spirit of Elijah; as compared to John the Baptist; and then applied to Elisha.

However, when you state:
Notice the 'double portion' of Elijah's spirit that Elisha was given.  Notice Elijah's mantle (covering) that Elisha assumed.  Notice how Elijah's 'spirit' [as readily apparant to others who looked upon Elisha.  Why then would we not consider that the Lord would call Elisha, Elijah.

I would think the reason the letter from Elijah should not be 'reconsidered' (which is what you are suggesting we do) to be rather from 'Elisha' is because of two things.

1) The word plainly says the letter is from Elijah, not from Elisha, not from someone in the spirit of Elijah, and no context in that passage to denote anyone other than Elijah
2) Does the writer of 2 Chronicles use this technique that you propse (Elijah really means Elisha) anywhere else in the book?  If this is a literary technique we find the writer of 2 Chronicles doing; and explaining throughout his book; then it would have precidence to stand on.  However, it appears to be this one single isolated instance; and an isolated instance that does not give any explaination or instruction to interpret it in that manner.

In 2 Kings, we see scriptures where Elisha as mentioned referred to specifically 'in the spirit of Elijah'. 
In the New Testament, we see Elijah (Elias) specifically explained as a symbolic reference with John the Baptist.

However, in 2 Chronicles; where the letter is written to the king from Elijah; we do not have this. 

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, and perhaps we will just have to leave this portion to others to discuss; but I see nothing in 2 Chronicles that instructs us to re-interpret the letter to be from Elisha instead of the stated Elijah.  (unless it was a scrible error; of which I would doubt..I checked the LXX just to be sure, and it too rendered Elijah)

If the passage about the letter could be viewed without knowledge of prior events -- namely Elijah being taken "into heaven" and not seen again, then I would say,...  yes -- 'Elijah' refers to the actual person of Elijah.  But before we even get to this question, one has to decide if Elijah had indeed been taken "into heaven" -- (letting the Bible define it's usage of this phraseology), or was still alive on the earth. And given what I've read and considered at this point, I believe that Elijah was taken to be with the Lord.   Therefore a symbolic use of the name 'Elijah' -- not the person, but rather what he symbolizes, would be in order. 

The prophet to the houses of Israel and Judah after Elijah was taken 'into heaven', was Elisha. 
2 King and 2 Chronicles closely mirror each other and record much of the same information regards the kings of Judah and Israel.  Consider this passage which demonstrates that Elisha was the prophet sought by king Jehoram (the king who later received the letter) when he needed counsel.

2Ki 3:1-15
1 Now Jehoram the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned twelve years.
2  And he wrought evil in the sight of the LORD; but not like his father, and like his mother: for he put away the image of Baal that his father had made.
3  Nevertheless he cleaved unto the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom.
4  And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool.
5  But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
6  And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
7  And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.
8  And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom.
So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days' journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them.
10  And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab!
11  But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may enquire of the LORD by him?
And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.
12  And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the LORD is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.
13  And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab.
14  And Elisha said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee.
15  But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him. ...


Here we see 3 kings -- Jehoram the king of Israel, Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and the king of Edom -- who joined forces and sought a prophet regarding the common threat of the Moabites.  And that prophet was Elisha.

Knowing that Elisha served as prophet to king Jehoram, and given the prior, well publicized event surrounding Elijah's miraculous disappearance, then, if a letter appeared out of the blue from the actual Elijah, I would think some degree of skepticism, disbelief or alarm would have been raised.  But there is no indication of this when king Jehoram received the letter near the end of his own life -- many years after the Elijah was taken into heaven and was not seen again.

Quote
The only problem I still have grief with, is the letter....I will dig some more in Kings and Chronicles and see if there is any other possibilites we may have missed.

The above passage and those mentioned previously, reconciles this for me at this point.  But whether the letter was from Elisha or Elijah, the message given and the end result of God's judgment against this king, remains unchanged.

God Bless your continued studies in His Word.

judy
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Dave Taylor

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2005, 05:41:17 PM »
bumping up to the top; for those who might want to read this; and get involved in the new sister thread discussing Enoch. 

(Not to be confused with the altrusian sleestak forefather from the lost city in Sid & Marty Krofts - Land of the Lost)

DvilleWall

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2005, 09:04:45 PM »
Christians believe that Elijah was transfigured, but Moses had supposedly died. Am I correct in this? So how could Moses be transfigured before Christ had first died and risen so that he was the first fruit?

Hello everyone
Im new to the board. Hope all here are doing well. Has anyone given thought to the idea that maybe  Jesus, Peter, James and John went and got a glimpse of the 1000 yr period of rest? Jesus was transfigured. Maybe having something to do with His glory? The way He will appear in the kingdom. It really does not say that Moses and Elijah were transfigured. There are a few other things said in that passage that lead me to believe this is true.

Melanie

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 07:06:00 PM »
OK, going in that direction a bit; how do we reconcile 'the manner' of Elijah going to the 3rd heaven?

1) Did flesh and blood go into Heaven?  (I don't think that is scriptural)


 Moses died, his flesh and blood were buried in the earth and has since (I assume) turned to dust.


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2) Did his flesh and blood get translated into a glorified body?  (It isn't stated, and it would usurp Christ, which I believe scrpturally is the first of that type.)

 Flesh and blood did not get translated, flesh and blood were buried. Only in his soul, absent from the body, did Moses go to heaven.

 2 Corinthians 5:8
 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.'


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3) Did his body rise; but only his spirit ascend into the 3rd heaven; and his body was 'dealt with' (for lack of a better phrase) so that somewhere, it returned to the dust of the ground to await the resurrection?

 Rise when?


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4) Another view we haven't considered?

 That Moses died, his flesh was put in the grave and rotted away like any other flesh. And in his soul, he went to live and reign with Christ. Just like everyone else. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord if you are elect.

Ray B

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 10:14:43 AM »
Christians believe that Elijah was transfigured, but Moses had supposedly died. Am I correct in this? So how could Moses be transfigured before Christ had first died and risen so that he was the first fruit?

The prophet and Jewish historian Josephus appears to have the answer to this contradiction. He writes that Moses didn't really die after all. He says that Moses only wrote that he died so people would not start to worship him and that might keep them from crossing into the promised land. So he believes that instead of dying, Moses was transfigured. Would you all agree that this is a much better explanation?

Dryfus,
The Scriptures are clear that Moses died, yet he did not die of old age or of a worn out body as it seems life was taken from him as his body was still good to go on. As GOD buries HIS servent, but still to be used again in HIS plan.

 Deuteronomy 34:5-7
 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
 7And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.



  Moses was to be used in other ways even after physical death, in the plan of GOD (ex: the Transfiguration) as we see dispute being made over his body by Spiritual Powers.


 Jude 1:9
 9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Chloe

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2013, 09:28:52 AM »
 )nicethread( Interesting.  Has anyone found anything more on Elijah's body dying or being left on earth? )bump(

Cecil

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2013, 12:09:07 PM »
David Taylor's argument posted on August 31, 2004 in response to this topic was very thorough and irrefutable. Nothing more to say ! :ditto:
Elijah does not die at this time, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. (Joh 3:13) This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing God’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.—2Ch 21:12-15

Melanie

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Re: Did Moses and Elijah Die?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2018, 08:01:52 AM »
Depending on 'which heaven' was the author's intent; makes a huge impact on this event.

1) The 1st heaven, home of the birds, is a reasonable choice; since we are dealing with a whirlwind...that is where they exist.

Yes, but if he was taken up in a tornado where he was never found or seen again, it's pretty much a guarantee he's dead. That would be my reasonable expectation and would fit the context perfectly. He died in the tornado and in a spiritual chariot went to be with the Lord. Not in his body, but as all believers do, in their souls existence.


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If someone was taken up into a whirlwind, then because of the storm, wind, and clouds; they would easily go out of sight.

Yes, and if they went so far out of sight as to never been seen again, which would be miles upon miles, then it's reasonable to assume that they are dead, is it not? That's what we should surmise reasonably by reading the text. That this even killed him and in a chariot he went to be with the lord. I don't understand how you think that a unreasonable understanding, considering the context.


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2) I think we can rule out the 2nd heaven (outerspace) since there is no context whatsoever for it.

OK.


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3) If we consider the 3rd heaven, then I believe scripture is adamant that it could not have been bodily; but would have had to have been in the spirit/soul only and would have been the result of either 'a vision' or death.

It's reasonable to deduce that his body would have been destroyed by the tornado carrying him that far, just as it would be today. And since he was never seen again, it is reasonable to think that what remained of his body was either deposited miles away or obliterated so badly by debris that he was unrecognizable. But in his soul he went up into heaven on a spiritual chariot. That's reasonable.


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it allows Elijah to remain alive bodily; and be able to write the letter of 2 Chronicles years later; which is the most natural and contextual reading of that passage.

I disagree. If the people had known Elijah was still alive by allegedly receiving a letter from him after they had searched and he was presumed dead, it would have been a major phenomenon and fantastic Biblical news and not just this speculation that it is today. In addition there is not one statement in scripture that shows Elisha still thought Elijah was still alive beside the letters, which you think was after the tornado. A idea that man theologians easily explain was not the case.


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I do not believe scripturally; the idea of Elijah not dying, is untendable.

Your strongest and really only argument, is the letters Elijah wrote. Which can, and is easily explained by most conservative Reformed theologians.


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What can we agree on?

Can we agree on:
1) At some point in history past, Elijah did physically die? 

Yes


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2) If Elijah went to the 3rd Heaven, he had to die; and only His soul could have made the trip not his mortal body?

Yes


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3) If Elijah only went up into the 1st Heaven, he could have survived the event; and written the 2 Chronicles letter later; as it states.  This would also explain why they were looking for him....If you saw your friend get sucked up into a tornado, afterwards you would probably get a group and try to look for them too; because that is the nature expectation of the event;

Yes, and unless he was hiding, they would have found him. If he was hiding, why did he write the 2 chronicles to the people openly? So he wasn't hiding, he messaged Elisha, which is contradictory to your idea he wanted Elisha to take over and that is why he went away. Which begs the question, why no one knew of him being alive and wrote of this great news? No scriptures speaks of him being alive and doing anything after that tornado. The two letters most studied theologians agree were written before the tornado. Why would he continued to message Elisha as if his reason for going away was no reason at all.


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you wouldn't have expected them to be sucked all the way to the 3rd heaven would you?

The reaction of the people was just as we would expect. That he was not found and never seen again is also as expected, but only if he was dead. In Tornadoes, floods, volcanoes, etc., people are never found again on a routine basis. Even though people go looking for them.


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And that is just how Elisha and the other saints reacted...they put together a search in the area.

And he was never found or seen again, just as we would expect if someone was taken high up in a tornado and died.



 


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