[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing  (Read 18783 times)

Dryfus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Gender: Male
  • Nothing without Proof
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2004, 10:20:15 AM »
Freedom and democracy as it was invisioned by the founding fathers like Thomas Jefferson, is an American ideal. This type democracy is only good for countries that are sophisticated enough to understand what they are voting for. It is not for poor under developed countries where votes can be bought or states that have not attained a higher level of political maturity. In countries like Iraq where poverty, political and religious instability are still the norm, it wouldn't be a good idea to forcefully impose democratic rule and attempt to make it work in such a short period of time as this country wants to spend there. Look at Russia, it's been ove4r 10 years and they still haven't gotten it right yet, and most think they had it better under communism. So much for democracy being the great panacea.
The whole world is a Stage

Dryfus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Gender: Male
  • Nothing without Proof
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2004, 10:27:40 AM »
What is wrong with you people? Anyone who is anti-democracy is anti-american and anti-cicvil rights. Democracy is a good thing for all people, period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

That's ridiculous. The present Israel-Palestine conflict shows that a democracy that only values its own rules, is not really "democratic," in common sense.

We as a country have forfeited our right to label ourselves a democracic state. Our political institutions are controlled by powerful lobby, business, and special interest groups who are successfully able to buy votes in congress and the senate and leverage the media to control public opinion. A good man can't raise the kind of money it takes to win a presidential election. Is this democracy?

The whole world is a Stage

Matrix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • Gender: Male
  • Neo
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2004, 01:06:04 PM »
There seems to be a lot of unpatriotic people who are christians.

Oh I just have to address some of these statements. By if by unpatriotic you mean a lot of intelligent people who are christian, then I agree. I've heard some intelligent things here with regards to the bungling of this war than I have in most conservative forums.


Quote
Don't you think that we should support our republican president in bringing democracy to those people in Iraq?

No I don't. I support our troops, I don't support stupidity. You think for one second Bush was thinking about the poor people in Iraq when he went to war? Don't kid yourself. He was thinking about how his father didn't finish the job. If he really cared so much about people, then rather than throwing a hundred billion dollars down an endless Iraqi hole, he would use it to help his own people. A hundred billion dollars is nothing to sneeze at. Do you know that ten billion could provide health care for every american in this country, but "Patriots" say we can't afford it. And yet we can afford to throw ten times that much down an Iraqi bottomless pit just because we have to support an imbecile? All the time while cutting taxes, decreasing services and trying to destroy social security? Is my math incorrect, or is there something wrong with this picture? Why are none of you "Patriots" who hate paying taxes not screaming about the hundred billion dollars spent in Iraq. Do you even know what a hundred billion is? By comparison, If  a democrat were ask to spend 1 million (with an M) dollars on a kids lunch program, the "patriots" would all have a heart attack claiming they're trying to bankrupt america. It's such hypocrisy.


Quote
Do you want a democrat in office? Let's not forget, the people of Iraq were being ruled by a tyrant.

And we're not? Maybe a democrat in office might be a good thing, since things seem to be much better when they are president and people actually don't get laid off. More jobs have been lost under Bush than any other president, and the outsourcing of american jobs is growing by leaps and bounds. While Bush pats business on the back, they rake us over by exporting more and more american jobs, and all I hear from "Patriots" is how there is a recovery.


Quote
So what if Sadam didn't really have weapons of mass destruction, he still needed to be taken down.

You say so what, I say so what about democracy? Forget Bush's revisionist history, weapons of mass destruction was the whole point of the war. He promised us he'd find them. So where are they? George Bush convinced us to go to war only by claiming that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and that Sadam would use them against us. That was a lie, and you say so what? Sadam is a pitiful little man and a coward, and Korea was 10 times more dangerous to this country than Sadam was. Everyone knows that. but it was all a pretense to finish the job his father started. He was just to stupid to figure out the mess that he was getting into.


Quote
And the world is a safer place because of it.

What world are you living in that is safer? A dream world? Before the war there were about 100 hard core Terrorists around the world the FBI had to worry about. Now it is estimated that there are about 2000, and recruiting has skyrocketed since the arab world is showing these images of america bungling things in Iraq. The world a safer place? What are you smoking? Bush has made it almost inevitable that hatred of us is growing, and that there will be a constant supply of lunatics ready to blow themselves up to destroy us. I can't believe any intelligent person could even have the unmitigated gaul to say that the world is safer because of President Bush. Terrorist attacks have become as common as grass since he went into Iraq.

 Being Republican is one thing, being blind to the truth is another. Bush went to Afghanistan and did the right thing. We all backed him because there was a clear and present danger and a hotbed of terrorist activity. But then he got cocky and like all cowboys he stuck his foot in it and it's going to cost him and us dearly. This country cannot afford to have a stupid president. There is too much power in the US Presidency to have this man's hands on it.


Quote
So let's just back him in whatever he does because he knows more than you or I do.

That's a laugh! He doesn't know anything, and he won't listen to those who do. That's why he's stumbling along in this war now not having any idea how to extricate himself gracefully from this quagmire. Another Texas President kept us in a quagmire many years ago, is history repeating itself?  He doesn't have a clue what to do next, except maybe fall off the wagon again.


Quote
I can't see how anyone could even think that bringing democracy to Iraq was not a good thing. We're not communists, we should be happy that they are free people


Once our soldiers leave that country, all hell is going to break loose, and Iran is going to get it's tentacles in it also. Unless of course you want to spend another hundred billion dollars next year, and the year after, and the year after. But that may be no problem for "patriots," but it's a problem for most Americans who see the hypocrisy of Republicans when it comes to deficit spending and mortgaging the future. But then again, You can always blame it on Hilary.

George

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 311
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2004, 01:52:34 AM »
Oh the sky is falling? President Bush has done a great job in Iraq under some very difficult circumstances. He's stood by his position and as Republicans and as Americans we need to stand by him on this issue. He's the only one who won't make a full scale retreat from the policy the United States needs to hold.

There is no such thing as a perfect government, but ours comes closer than any other and the President is a big reason for that. There will always be dissent amongst the population of a nation, but under our republic we should notice more favourable opinions of government operations and less dissenting voices that give comfort to the democrats and the liberals and the terrorists.

Our boys died for Iraq, what do you want to do, pull out and have them have died in vain? The president is not stupod, he knows what has to be done and he'll stay the course.

Genrev

  • Guest
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2004, 09:22:50 AM »
I have been following this thread with interest.  I am very confused about what is going on with our military.

My 57 year old husband was called back to Active Duty the day before Thanksgiving.  Yesterday he was deployed...sent to some unknown country north of Afghanistan.

We went out to see him off, of course.  After a brief time together, Smallpox shots and roll call for those being deployed, etc., we were all led in a brief prayer which ended as follows:

"...Watch over them.  They are doing this for our country and for you."

Can anyone explain what they meant by that? 

Did they mean that this "War on Terror" is for God?  And is that Biblical?

Blessings,
Minna

John

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
  • Gender: Male
  • A man with God is always in the majority-John Knox
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2004, 09:14:01 PM »
A democracy is not what we have, we live in a representitive republic. The governmental system is not ordained by God, but  if we are going to design a system that seeks to keep evil men in check, then we'd be hard pressed to find a better system of government.

One might think listening to the carping by one political party that Bush started the war, allowed the terrorist to attack, picked on Iraq to claim their oil reserves, never warned Iraq to comply with UN resolutions, never gave them a chance to comply, never allowed inspectors to try and find WMD, never had a willing coalition of supporting countries willing to fight against terror organizations, never had any evidence that Iraq was harboring, training, and sponsoring international terrorism including those that attack the USA. Wait! That's exactly the clap-trap one political party has been spinning out continuously since shortly after 9-11 with little effect. The same party that never met a petty dictator or communist it didn't love (and try to have fund their political machine) or a law it wouldn't try and undermine or break now sits in judgment during a time of war calling a sitting president a liar and a war criminal (while apologizing for AL Queda and Saddam Hussein's bad behavior). The very same political party that did nothing on its watch to track, arrest, kill, stop terror acts; even while the terrorist came and went freely while the immigration service was made a pawn of the white house (to get more voters).

Yes, Bush has made mistakes and so have the terrorists. But while his arch enemy (the opposing political power not Al Queda) seeks to destroy the USA from within with subversion the terrorists continue to seek to kill YOU and your family. They want you dead, while the anti-Bush bloc simply want Kerry to win, at any cost. It is doubtful they even think there is a real threat -- their biggest concern is gay rights, abortion, and getting re-elected.

What do you suppose drives one political party to such an anti-American, anti-God, anti-Law extreme position of self-hating of Americans and America? The answer is easy. They are the voting bloc of those who hate God, rebel against all forms of authority (God being the chief source), and hate the police, the military, the judicial system, and all laws in general. American is evil and wrong ... they think to themselves. We deserve to be attacked, to be killed ... this political party does not find it odd that they side with terrorists in wishing our demise. They have one consumming driving force -- hatred of God and authority: A single powerful country is de facto their focus of loathing and disgust.

Nothing Bush does will ever change this political situation. It will only grow worse as Americans grow more ignorant, lazy, and dependent upon their political party to feed, cloth, house, and pay them. In the end American will probably succumb to the enemy. But it won't be Al Queda or terrorist groups that do it. It will be the subversive element right here at home.

john


Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

David Knoles

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2004, 12:44:15 AM »
Oh the sky is falling? President Bush has done a great job in Iraq under some very difficult circumstances. He's stood by his position and as Republicans and as Americans we need to stand by him on this issue. He's the only one who won't make a full scale retreat from the policy the United States needs to hold.


You are so right my friends. It's not any coincidence that most of the christians backing the President are Southern, Patriotic and Premillennialists who take the bible literally. We are Republican through and through and stand by our President. The notion that this country under President Bush tries to impose its "democracy" on other nations is laughable. Democracy is about listening to the peoples' voices at home, not in other nations. And the President is listening to the good thinking americans and not to the allegorizing liberals who want to be under Roman catholic style religion. Do not be deceived.



Scot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Gender: Male
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2004, 02:10:59 AM »
Quote
A democracy is not what we have, we live in a representitive republic.

I'm not sure many people understand that.


Gameboy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Gender: Male
  • "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine" Pr17:22
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2004, 07:45:11 PM »
First, Bush isn't the president of the people, because more people in this country voted against him than for him. That's because despite these posts, and as some have said, we don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. If we did live in a democracy, Al Gore would have been elected president because over half a million more people in this countrty wanted Gore and voted for him than voted for George Bush. But those half a million votes were disenfranchised by not having their votes count. So while Bush is out yapping about democracy, he really wouldn't want to see it here.

So you Republicans don't really want a democracy, do you? Because then your precious political candidates would be out of office if the people were allowed to have it their way. And there's a very good chance even in this republic Bush will not be reelected this year. Because people understand he is an incompetent leader who blindly listens to people who don't know anything about international events. Chaney is a dinosaur who should be in a museum..

Dryfus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Gender: Male
  • Nothing without Proof
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2004, 04:32:56 AM »
I will say just one question, and I hope to get an intelligent response. Intelligent doesn't mean right wing fanatics, skin heads, Nazi, or the likes of confeederate chest beaters calling everyone who is not a republican reactionary lemming, a liberal.

The first thing that Bush said was that He was there to bring democracy to Iraq and to liberate the people to determine their own paths. The second thing Bush said was that he would not allow an Islamic government in Iraq. The statements are contradictory, and that's Bush in a nutshell. He doesn't appear to be very smart and that's dangerous to the world.

We have seen the democratic process in operation for the last 50 years in Israel which started by expelling the Palestinians from their lands, and to tell you the truth; it has put us off this so-called democracy for life.

The whole world is a Stage

beauty4ashes

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Female
  • Praise God!
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2004, 07:49:42 AM »
Nothing in this world is perfect yet.

Being free in Christ, I will stand by a president that wishes to protect American freedom.
( even if I don't agree with how it was and is done)

No matter what others call it..republic, democracy, mob rule.

I call it freedom.




Dryfus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Gender: Male
  • Nothing without Proof
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2004, 01:15:02 PM »
Freedom isn't a source of stupidity, Bush is. He's made more mistakes in one year than other Presidents have made in two terms.

I think that the United States has no business trying to force a western-style democracy on other peoples and cultures. At best Bush is ignorant of other's cultural values and concepts. And at worst he is another example to the world of cultural imperialism.

 Iraq is a good example of American hypocracy. Bush man said that the Iraqi people were free to set up their own form of government and then he attempted to hand picked Iraqis who would make sure that the form of government to be chosen will be a capitalistic western democracy. He is a walking talking moron.

When he found that the people of Iraq wouldn't go along with his dog and poney show and accept his hand picked CIA candidates, he looks like a fool back peddling. He came to the table unprepared, and now those he picked are in trouble, suspected of criminal activity, and he just wants to drop everything and act stupid. Anyone who votes for Bush must be as ignorant as he is with regards to foreign relartions, world issues, and international politics.

He's alienated every country in the world, even gotten Tony Blair in trouble, and has done more to hurt the U.S. and help recruit more terrorists than any presdient ever. The rest of the world looks at him as the cowboy and a clown he is. He is no freedom fighter, he's a moron.

The good news is, from what I hear, he's going to lose the election, again. They are registering heavily in florida to vote against him, and this time he won't have his party disenfranchising voters or his brother's help in cooking the results. And the world will be a better place when he's gone.


The whole world is a Stage

Reformer

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1660
  • Reformed and Evangelical
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2004, 03:28:15 AM »

Reading these scathing posts, I have to admit that there's no question that some of President Bush's actions are hypocritical and somewhat foolish. And I would be foolish if I tried to convince anyone that he's done a great job as President. He hasn't done a great job, and actually He's been quite bad. These untold billions spent in Iraq is just part of the disater. And I'm sure the lives lost in Iraq are in vain, because when we leave that place will be worse than it was before we got there. At least Sadam held the religious nuts down over there. Who's going to hold them down when we leave the country?

But I am not going to vote for the democratic candidate just because of that. President Bush will probably lose, and I might just sit this one out. But the democratic candidate is no better. First of all he's catholic, and is pro abortion and waffles on gay rights. In the politics of the United States it's all about choosing the lessor of two evils. So I won't be choosing him.

I'll grant you your three points.

1. I don't believe that the President had all pure motives for going to Iraq.    2. Yes, he was trying to force a western style democracy upon them.
3. Yes, he's not the sharpest tool in the woodshed and has made many mistakes.

But I also don't believe that the alternative is better. So I have to go with a half-conservative view, rather than a liberal view. I'm not supporting a party that approves of gay marriages and abortion. And I'm not about to throw my vote away on a patriotic party than can't possibly win, and that I am suspicious of anyway. That leaves me with the choice of voting for the President, or not voting at all. And for the first time, I'm not sure which I will do this year. He's been a great disappointment.

yaboo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 80
  • I'm a Lamma
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2004, 07:24:31 PM »
All you Patriots, so called, may have helped elect the Bush regime, but the majority of people in America did not. Therefore you have a man leading you who is not only unpopular abraod, but who wasn't even the choice of your own country. Your argument for backing him falls a little flat when your own people by a big majority didn't want to elect him. Obviously Bush was not the choice of the people, but of the political machine. so where's democracy?

John

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
  • Gender: Male
  • A man with God is always in the majority-John Knox
Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2004, 01:31:49 AM »
Quote
Bush isn't the president of the people, because more people in this country voted against him than for him
.

It doesn't matter that Gore received a few more votes than Bush that is not how elections work. The popular vote only matters in each individual state. The winner of the popular vote in each state wins all that states electoral votes. Bush won 271 electoral votes to Gores 266, 270 votes are required to win out of the 538 available from all states. The popular vote does not determine who will be president; it simply does not work that way despite all the crowing by certain politically minded people. The overall popular vote does not determine elections -- get that embedded in your forehead. Bush won because he had more electoral votes than Gore, even though Gore had slightly more popular votes overall.

The popular vote in each state determines elections as the electoral votes for that state goes to the state winner. Gore won some big states with many electoral votes, but overall he won only 19 states to Bush's 29 states. In the end Bush had more electoral votes because he picked up more states. That's how candidates campaign -- to try and win the undecided states and get more of the Electoral College votes. They know this going in -- neither candidate thought they would win by getting more of the overall popular vote.

The recount in Florida has been done numerous times since the election -- Bush has won every single official and unofficial recount. In fact, Bush won Florida by only 1,725 votes after the smoke cleared. There is overwhelming evidence of election fraud in the Florida recounts too. The recount was heavily biased toward Gore. For instance, Bush would gain 60-120 votes per county but Gore would gain three times that amount. Apparently the irregularities in voting favored Gore. In fact, after the first recount Gore had found 1,400 votes more for himself than Bush -- a statistical impossibility apart from election fraud.  Though Bush won the Florida recount, the election fraud by the party faithful unnecessarily narrowed the gap. Tactics used to adjust the votes in Gores favor included: removing Bush votes, adding fraudulent Gore votes, punching new holes for Gore on ballots not marked, counting dimpled ballots for Gore, purposefully miscounted ballots, not counting overseas ballots from the U.S. military, and feeding Gore ballots through the counting machine more than once. This does not include the tricks of allowing felons, illegal immigrants, the mentally ill, and the under age to vote in state elections (and to vote more than once). In the end it didn't matter ... Bush did win Florida and the electoral vote. Gore did not.

This means Bush was elected fairly according to the laws of the land despite all the protests from the party faithful. Gore simply did not win -- that's all -- he failed to win enough states. End of story. He wasn't selected he was elected -- just as every modern president. Bush didn't steal Florida or the election, though a good argument can be made that Gore operatives did try to pervert the recount process and had some success -- but still Bush won.

Whether you like President Bush or not, he is your president elected according to law. While the talking points for one political party speak of hatred toward Bush, calling him an imbecile and idiot, stating he is worse than Hitler, a deserter, a traitor, a liar, a coward, a fraud, and on and on -- one might hope that Christian testimony would be better served by a more respectful and honored tone toward those appointed over you.

  • 2Pe 2:10  But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Remember, God who is Sovereign over all the affairs of men ultimately appoints them. God is not a Democrat or Republican -- He does not promote one form of government over another -- all events work according to His Holy Will -- including elections, enemy attacks, and war. We can argue policy and stratgey but we are not to mock, insult, or dishonor those God has appointed over us. We cannot expect those of the flesh to be men of honor but for the child of God it is mandatory. We dishonor God when we dishonor our governmental rulers (yes, even Hitler was used by God -- a wicked man). When your leaders asks you to disobey God then you may oppose him -- otherwise, obey.

  • Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

  • Rom 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


john 
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]