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Author Topic: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing  (Read 18771 times)

Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2004, 06:55:00 PM »
yaboo,

It seems that you understand more about our government than most of it's citizens. You're right. We're a republic (at least we're supposed to be). I'm not sure why we're talking democracy.

Beauty4ashes,

You just said that we're not to disobey government, then you say that you would if things "get that bad." Which is it?

That's another problem with todays christians. People have gotten so used to liberal theology and so used to the evil around us that we don't think "it's that bad".

I'll admit that our government is better than most (or maybe they're just better at hiding the corruption  ;)) but that doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with it.

Read the "Declaration of Dependance on God" that I posted. Do you deny that our government does these things? You seem proud of it. I'm not.

Diane Moody

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2004, 08:18:34 AM »
As has already been shown by others, we don't really live in a democracy, nor would most people want a true democracy because it would upset the applecart. Nor do I think we should be playing politics by pretending to export democracy to countries that we really wouldn't want to be a democracy. For instance, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. God forbid that their leaders should ever be elected by democracies. I don't know where Christians (of all people) get this idea that Islam is our friend and we can co-exist with them. It's the fastest growing religion in the world because unlike christians, they proselytize and evangelize.

My view is that so long as people have food on their tables, and clothing in their closets, can make a decent living, and have a roof over their heads, the system of government does not matter. We don't need to be making these countries democracies, because that's playing with fire and we're the ones going to end up being burnt.

I have always thought that the most important thing for any nation is not self-governance by the people, but moral and just leadership. Freedom of choice in the form of democracy is not always a good or godly thing for the world.


beauty4ashes

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2004, 06:32:01 AM »
Quote
That's another problem with todays christians. People have gotten so used to liberal theology and so used to the evil around us that we don't think "it's that bad".

I will always worship the Lord and through His grace I will have a mouth to speak when it gets that bad Scott.

Doesn't mean I am to revolt and start disobeying. Just trusting that when government begins killing us for being Christian, through Christ I will stand.


George

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2004, 10:28:18 AM »
There seems to be a lot of unpatriotic people who are christians. Don't you think that we should support our republican president in bringing democracy to those people in Iraq? Do you want a democrat in office? Let's not forget, the people of Iraq were being ruled by a tyrant. So what if Sadam didn't really have weapons of mass destruction, he still needed to be taken down. And the world is a safer place because of it. So let's just back him in whatever he does because he knows more than you or I do.

I can't see how anyone could even think that bringing democracy to Iraq was not a good thing. We're not communists, we should be happy that they are free people

Chicago Bear

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2004, 12:19:25 PM »
Most political systems can be appropriate under the right circumstances, and they can all be fair and just. It all depends upon the people who are running the system. If they are unfair, then the system will be perceived as unfair. Democracy is suitable for our great nation, but to assume that it is suitable everywhere is to be child-like in understanding the global world community. President Bush is unsophisticated in his worldview and has merely replaced one regime with another. Only time will tell if the people of Iraq are worse off than they were before. The fact is, the whole country could slide into chaos and fall apart at the seams, or it could grow to become a standard for the middle east. Granted, the model the President has for it is not likely at all with fanatical religious leaders representing the majority, but it is possible that things could get better.

Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Peng Bao

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2004, 02:18:57 PM »
First let me say that I think the united states is a great country. But I don't believe the united states government has any right at all to tell other countries what form of government they should have, or that they should dictate these countries tear down their cultures to give women what they perceive as rights, or arbitrarily overthrow governments because they don't think they are practicing human rights. This is just as other countries don't have the right to tell the united states what kind of rights of government that it's people should have. The arrogance of your president shows a complete disregard for the sovereignty of other nations, the beliefs of other countries and no recognition that some cultures are different from America, and has every right to be that way without the united states threatening to overthrow them.

And it's not really about human rights, because there are plenty of countries just as bad as Iraq in regards to torture and human rights violations (China and North Korea are two that come to mind), and mr Bush is not going to invade them to straighten them out. I believe that whether we like it or not, each and every country has a right to their own autonomy. In just four years Bush has done more to harm the reputation of the united states than all other presidents combined. No one can presume to arbitrarily force democracy or their way of life upon other nations. It's wrong, and it shouldn't have happened.

As a christian I know that God never told anyone to go out and straighten out other nations, or to force them at the point of a sword, or bring them democracy, or free these people from the tyranny of their leaders. I had thought that we had all learned the error of the crusades.

George

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2004, 02:46:22 PM »
It isn't enough that we have unpatriotic christians here at home, but now we have foreigners ripping this country as well.

As christians we have to stand by the president. If we don't then we are traitors to this great nation, and should just go live somewhere else. This is our country, love it or leave it. You want to bad-mouth the USA because it's helping a country, that's crazy. It's open season on america ever since this president took office. Because he's a conxervative with moral values.

I didn't hear you complaining when Sadam was violating rights. Now it's all about a few Iraq prisoners having their picture taken. American prisoners were treated a lot worse than anything that our soldiers did. Where were you then?


Bruce

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2004, 05:46:38 PM »
It isn't enough that we have unpatriotic christians here at home, but now we have foreigners ripping this country as well.

Oh I see. So if anyone dares to tell the truth about this President, they automatically get singled out as some kind of pirana? Listen, it was the President who jumped into this war braggadocios about having no problem going it alone. It was the President who told everyone to shut up when the generals said that he didn't have enough troops to handle the aftermath. It was the President who without thinking it through as an intelligent person would, said the Iraq people would love us when we got there and throw flowers. Not unpatriotic liberals, but the President. And now he's humbled coming with his tail between his legs begging the UN to come in and take some of the responsibility so americans can stop getting killed, and he can maybe win an election. You blame foreigners, liberals and people who you claim are unpatriotic for that?


Quote
As christians we have to stand by the president. If we don't then we are traitors to this great nation, and should just go live somewhere else. This is our country, love it or leave it.

It's mindless thinking like this that has gotten this country in the hot water in Iraq that it's in now. Texas cowboys who think they're in a B western movie where they can act first and think later. The President of the greatest country in the world has got to be smarter than that. But you're telling us we should either agree with the President or leave the country? You have to be joking? And you have the nerve to talk about patriotism and freedom? This country was built upon disagreements, discussion and debate. This country was established because we wouldn't just follow the government blindly with everything it said or did. If the American Patriots were to hear your statements, they certainly wouldn't count you in their number. Freedom means freedom to disagree. It doesn't mean freedom to agree or get out.

I am unclear when the rules changed for who decides the kind of government or system that a nation must have in place. I was under the impression that the country decided for itself. I was under the impression that countries can't be subjugated by other countries just because they treat their own people poorly. President Bush did not have the right to impose our system of government onto Iraq bragging about democracy. And now too late he's learning his lesson and trying to extricate himself from a lions mouth without losing face.

He has no intestinal fortitude. Today I read he's letting the terrorist murderous Cleric that our soldiers had surrounded leave the city without being arrested. After he swore he wouldn't do that, and said this guy would have to pay for his killing spree. His words were just meaningless. Now he's eating crow and doesn't have a clue what to do next. He's no leader, and the only one in his cabinent with any sense and the guts to disagree with his policy is Colin Powell, and he won't listen to him. You have the yes-man Condy Rice, and the viking Dick Chaney, I mean no wonder he's in this mess.

I wonder if a year from now when this same fanatical islamic zealot the President is letting go free is again responsible for killing more americans, will you still step up and say it's because Bush let him go in 2004. Or will you blame Liberals or the Clinton Administration, or maybe the biased media? It is not unpatriotic to say "President Bush is incompetent" in handling this situation, that's why we live in a free country. So we can say that. The liberals didn't make this mess in Iraq, George W. Bush and his incompetent crew did.

If I'm unpatriotic in saying this truth, I guess that's what I am.




Matrix

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2004, 06:47:57 PM »
Who was it that said:
  "Democracy is the people's right to choose the next lot of politicians to muck them around with their political ideals, for the peoples own good, whether the people want it or not."


David Knoles

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2004, 03:11:26 AM »
It isn't enough that we have unpatriotic christians here at home, but now we have foreigners ripping this country as well.

As christians we have to stand by the president. If we don't then we are traitors to this great nation, and should just go live somewhere else. This is our country, love it or leave it. You want to bad-mouth the USA because it's helping a country, that's crazy. It's open season on america ever since this president took office. Because he's a conxervative with moral values.


I agree with you. This country needs to get behind the president against these terrorists. Did you ever notice how it's liberal christians who are democrats who don't support the president? It's all political, it's not about doing the right thing anymore.

And people overseas can't understand the passion Americans have for christian values, and how President Bush is doing things based on his theology, and not liberal ideals. We threw Clinton out of office and now have a President who is christian and does christian things, and democrats don't like that. What they are doing is insulting our fighting men over there. We need to back our president and back our troops, not pick on every little thing they do wrong.



Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2004, 09:09:20 AM »
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a President who is christian and does christian things

I do sincerely hope that our president is truly saved BUT did you hear him speak about the muslim God? He claimed that the peaceful muslims serve the same God as Christians. Sorry, but that's not the God I serve and if our president is serving that God then he's not a true Christian.

Reformer

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2004, 05:54:06 PM »
David, George, and anyone else who wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am patriotic, and I do believe we should back our troops and stand with the President. But this "Love it or leave it" stuff is neither patriotic, christian or democratic. And saying that President Bush has done some really stupid things is not treason.

I agree with you that a lot of it is politically motivated, but let's face facts. Some of it the president and his cabinet brought upon themselves. If President Clinton had done the same things, we would be calling for his head. We all know that.

So I'm voting for President Bush, but I am not doing so with blinders on. He's not a very good leader, he's not organized, nor does he handle the economy or employment issues very well, but I'm voting for him because he's better than the alternative. But I'm not going to call people names because they see the same errors I see, but are of another political view. Because that's what democracy is all about. It's about tolerance for other peoples opinion. If not, then we might as well not live in a democratic society.


Reformer

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2004, 06:00:07 PM »
Oh I see. So if anyone dares to tell the truth about this President, they automatically get singled out as some kind of pirana?


It's not "all" the truth. There are some good things happening in Iraq, schools opening, hospitals better, oil flowing, but you will seldom hear about them on the news, because no one will watch good news. It's all about ratings.

Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2004, 11:32:36 PM »
If we're really concerned about being "patriotic" here, may I suggest that you check out these links. Let's quit talking republicans and democrats. There are more Biblical parties out there. Give me some feedback on what you think of the links.

www.patriotparty.us/

www.americanheritageparty.or g/

Scot

Diane Moody

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2004, 08:02:54 AM »
Most political systems can be appropriate under the right circumstances, and they can all be fair and just. It all depends upon the people who are running the system. If they are unfair, then the system will be perceived as unfair. Democracy is suitable for our great nation, but to assume that it is suitable everywhere is to be child-like in understanding the global world community.


I think that you are right. Democracy isn't what makes a country great, its leadership is. Remember in the bible when Israel had no king, and God said that every man did what was right in his own eyes? That nation was under a form of democracy, or was it mob rule? And that didn't work out too well.

As opposed to when the nation had a king like Solomon. He ruled justly for the most part and the nation did pretty well. Of course he wasn't perfect and got into idolatry, but he ruled a better nation than when they had no king and existed under a form of what we would call democracy.

Anyway, I have to scratch my head when I hear Christians saying that democracy is the system that God wants everyone under. There is nothing about the proper system for God's people being a democracy written in scripture. At least I haven't seen it.



 


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