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Author Topic: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing  (Read 19038 times)

Rich Aikers

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Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« on: May 24, 2004, 07:07:47 AM »
This is a spinoff on my poll because I didn't want to clutter the poll with messages about democracy. I added the question to the poll question because to be honest with you, I'm not really sure anymore that democracy is a good thing or if democracy is a bad thing. The way I see this country changing because of it, I wonder if perhaps a Godly ruler couldn't govern this country better than letting everyone have a say. I know that's probably like talking treason around here, but this country is going downhill fast, and democracy is driving it. And now we're trying to export democracy abroad. I just don't know that it's a good thing. Your views are welcomed.

Matrix

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2004, 08:31:18 AM »
Interesting question. Don't really know the answer, but here's a quote I heard once that caught my atrention:

"Democracy: The mistaken belief that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time."

I git a kick out of that, but like you I'm not really sure that it's not at least partly true. As a christian looking to do the right thing, it does make me think whether democracy is really any better (or worse) than any other system of rule. For example, I ask myself if it would be better to have a king david rule over us with all his faults, or to have a democracy with all it's faults?

Drew

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2004, 04:02:49 PM »
What is wrong with you people? Anyone who is anti-democracy is anti-american and anti-cicvil rights. Democracy is a good thing for all people, period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That's what is wrong with this country now, all the unpatriotic liberals who don't take the bible literally and give Israel their due, don't respect democracy, and would just stand by as tyrants like Sadam kept millions of people scared of him as supreme ruler.

To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race. And democracy made that possible.

Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2004, 12:05:01 AM »
This is from www.ismellarat.com

"Renew the Covenant"
DECLARATION OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for a people to renew their national covenant with God, and to resume among the powers of the earth that obedient station to which the laws of God bind them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the renewal.

We hold these truths to be Biblically evident, that all men are created equal before the Law of God and covenantally responsible to Him. That they are endowed by their Creator with the possibility of blessing or cursing depending on their obedient response to His Covenant and its mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in the death and resurrection of Christ and subsequent obedience to His Word is the only source of life, liberty and happiness for men and nations.

That as one means of securing this Covenant, God has ordained the institution of civil government, deriving its just power from God alone. That whenever any form of government becomes disobedient and destructive of these ends, it is the responsibility of its Christian citizens to call the nation back to God, to pray for God’s mercy, and use all legal means available to restore its foundations and reorganize its powers according to the Word of God.

The Word of God, indeed, will dictate, that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes or violently cast off in lawless revolutions. Accordingly the Bible hath shown, that God’s people are enjoined to bear patiently under His hand of discipline, while evils are sufferable, than to avenge themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to separate them from their God and reduce them under absolute despotism, it is the right, it is the duty, of duly ordained Christian leaders in church and state to reprove such government and to restore those biblical forms that will ensure their future security.

Such has been the patient sufferance of these United States, and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their present system of government. The history of the present ruling class in this country is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the casting away of the Law of God and establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states.

To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world….

They have slain at the hands of the abortionist in excess of 30 millions of unborn infants.

They have refused their assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

They have obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing to limit their judicial decrees to the stated intent of either the Constitution or the Bible.

They have erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers, to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

They have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving their assent to their acts of pretended legislation.

For imposing taxes on us without our consent.

For depriving us, in many cases, (especially those related to taxation) of the benefits of trial by jury.

For weakening our own legislatures, and declaring their own bureaucracies invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

They are at this time advancing a comprehensive program – legislative, economic, and cultural – to complete the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms. Our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A ruling class whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant – rule apart from Divine authority – is unfit to govern the affairs of a Christian people.

Nor have we been wanting in attentions to our countrymen. We have warned them from time to time, of their attempts to extend an unbiblical jurisdiction over us and have participated in the election of leaders professing to restrain this abuse to no avail. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here as a biblical commonwealth governed according to the Word of God. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connnexions and correspondence. They too, have been deaf to the voice of justice and consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity which impels us to this covenant renewal, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, adversaries in rebellion, in submission to God friends.

We, therefore, the Christian leaders of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the Holy Scriptures, solemnly publish and declare, that forsaking pluralism these United States are, and of right ought to be one nation under God, and that our representatives must swear allegiance to govern according to His Word , and that, as a nation covenanted to God, they will have full power to perform those duties which covenanted nations must of biblical warrant do.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of the God of Covenants, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Matrix

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2004, 05:04:29 AM »
Democracy is an adequate form of government for americans so far, but is democracy good for the world or is it another example of cultural imperialism? Has democracy been a good thing? It all depends. Democracy for who? Is democracy good for the world, or is it an example of how to throw the whole world into competing bickering sides so stagnated by their blind aversion to each other that nothing good can get done. Like democrats and republicans that make for demagoguery where the country's welfare is secondary to politics, and anarchy and chaos the result.

 Look at Iraq. When democracy comes to Iraq, they will be ruled by the majority shite muslims with their anti-God, anti-american, Jihad terrorist bent. So will the world be a safer place because these shites now have control of a middle eastern power state, with oil riches to support their brand of politics? Or will Iraq end up a haven for more arab religious sects, genocide, terrorists, Iranian influences, and anarchy? Democracy in Iraq isn't going to make America safer, it will cause more problems. Waving the flag and calling people traitors for not supporting democracy isn't going to solve them either.

The only reason Saudi Arabia isn't this fanatical religious terrorist state in chaos and an overt enemy of america is because they are not a democracy. When George Bush and by implication america, starts trying to force it's brand of democratic government upon the world which they know little about, they will find they will come to forever regreat it. For the shites in the Middle East will not only support, but spawn terrorists in the name of allah. Any competent leader should be smart enough to figure that out. But when you have incompetent leaders, you get actions taken that they didn't weigh the consequences or prepare for the aftermath. Yes, democracy can be good thing, but it also can be a very bad thing in the wrong hands. Democracy in Iraq with it's majority fanatical religious shite population is not a bad thing, it's a horrible thing. Especially as they are led around by the nose by a few religious clerics. Just as the "once" popular overthrow of the Shaw or king of Iran and his replacement with Ayatollah Khomeini was a horrible thing for that country. Believe it or not, they were actually better off under the Shaw.

When will people understand that it's not our job to go around the world and remove tyrants. God didn't give us that task. For my money, the democratic process is unworkable as a universal or worldwide model. And that's what some people cannot seem to understand as they seek to export and impose our way of life upon others. It will be disasterous.


Dana Pescator

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2004, 11:28:14 AM »
Matrix,
  Brilliant intelligent message. I've been listening to speeches by my friends and cheer leaders from the right all week, and yours is the first message I've read or heard that makes any sense to me. I can't say that I agree with you totally about democracy, but I do know that there is a lot of truth in what you've said.

I think that President Bush himself said it best during the campaign, He said "I don't think America should be the policemen of the world," and "If elected I sure won't be nation building," and "I don't believe the role of America is to go around the world saying 'that's the way it's got to be'".

Now if only he had listened to himself...  ;D

Nice Post! Democracy is a good thing when it's handled by good people.



Reformer

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2004, 12:45:37 PM »
I will back our President, even though he's done some really stupid things in Iraq, because we should all back the President. And besides, the democrats wouldn't do any better and their liberal policies outweigh President Bush's miscues in Iraq.

Yes, I think it was a mistake to go to Iraq and try and bring democracy to them, because they're not ready for it. And we're the ones who have ended up paying for it in lives, and countless billions of our dollars, despite the fact they are rich wirth oil wells. While at the same time those in office claim we can't afford to pay for heath care for our senior citizens. That seems like creative financing to me.

But look at the alternative. It is the democrats with abortion and gay rights and more laws than we need. It's not like we can undo Iraq, we're there now. We sure can't just pull out and run now. I don't really blame Bush, I believe Chaney is really responsible. But if Iraq does manage to be a democracy, everyone will be jumping on the bandwagon. So let's back the President.



Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2004, 04:37:02 PM »
Has anyone read "A Christian Manifesto" by Francis Schaeffer?

How can we back a government that goes directly against the word of God and makes laws for own personal gain? Our government is placed there to enforce God's law, the Bible. When they cease doing this, it is our duty to disobey. The king is not law, the law is king. God's law. Anyone remember the covenanter's of old? When the king put himself over God's law, they knew that he no longer had the right to be king. They fought for THE king. Jesus Christ.


beauty4ashes

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2004, 12:07:55 AM »
Democracy is a very good thing.

It is much like God allowing mistakes, repentance and recompance.

God doesn't force Himself and is not a God of "forces" but a God of freedom.

Democracy is much like that allowing freedom.

Anyone that wants to live under dictatorship could easily move somewhere more appropriate for them.


Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2004, 12:44:01 AM »
At my house we live under a monarchy and Jesus is king. When a decision needs to be made we don't go by what the majority thinks (mob rules), we go by what our king commands.

Anyway, isn't America supposed to be a republic not a democracy?

beauty4ashes

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2004, 06:36:47 AM »
Jesus has never ordered us in any way to disobey authority of govenments.

You are free to move you know.

Scot

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2004, 08:59:53 AM »
That is absurd!! You actually think that we should obey government over Christ? So if the government one day decides that I am no longer allowed to worship, then Jesus has never ordered me to disobey them?  ::)

Here's a paragraph from Lex Rex. I think it would do you good to get the book. You can read more of it here - www.hisglory.us/articles/lexrex.htm

Because the text saith, "Let every soul be subject to the higher powers." But no powers commanding things unlawful, and killing the innocent people of God, can be higher powers, but in that lower powers. He that commandeth not what God commandeth, and punisheth and killeth where God, if personally and immediately present, would neither command nor punish, is not in these acts to be subjected unto, and obeyed as a superior power; for all habitual, all actual superiority is a formal participation of the power of the Most High. Arnisaeus well saith, "That of Aristotle must be true, It is against nature, better and worthier men should be in subjection to unworthier and more wicked men"; but when magistrates command wickedness, and kill the innocent, the non-obeyers, in so far, are worthier than the commanders (whatever they be in habit and in office) actually, or in these wicked acts are unworthier and inferior, and the non-obeyers are in that worthier, as being zealous adherents to God's command and not to man's will. I desire not to be mistaken; if we speak of habitual excellency, godly and holy men, as the witnesses of Christ in things lawful, are to obey wicked and infidel kings and emperors, but in that these wicked kings have an excellency in respect of office above them; but when they command things unlawful, and kill the innocent, they do it not by virtue of any office, and so in that they are not higher powers, but lower and weak ones. Laertius doth explain Aristotle well, who defineth a tyrant by this, "That he commandeth his subjects by violence"; and Arnisaeus condemneth Laertius for this, "Because one tyrannical action doth no more constitute a tyrant, than one unjust action doth constitute an unjust man." But he may condemn, as he doth indeed, for this is essential to a tyrant, to command and rule by violence. If a lawful prince do one or more acts of a tyrant, he is not a tyrant for that, yet his action in that is tyrannical, and he doth not that as a king, but in that act as a sinful man, having something of tyranny in him.

beauty4ashes

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2004, 10:18:35 AM »
Scott,

I will certainly always worship the Lord.

When the government gets that bad then it will be a dictatorship...which it seems you wish.

You are free here you know.

Gilda

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2004, 12:45:50 PM »
If this country believes so much in democracy, then why don't they implement this system in UN? I'll tell you why. Because then they couldn't get done what they want done. That's not democracy. How many dictatorships have been supported by the United states while preaching democracy? Personally, I would replace democracy with a  theocracy.

yaboo

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Re: Has Democracy Been a Good Thing
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2004, 05:49:39 PM »
As a exchange student, I find that the American people do seem to have a genuinely democratic value system. But as democracies go their system of government is very seriously flawed.

For one thing the electoral college is not really democratic, it's representative. As I understand it, you are a republic, not a democratic state. Though Americans do seem to confuse the two on a daily basis. This is highlighted in your two-senators-per-state laws. This also is not democratic, because it gives disproportionate weight to less populous states. Conservatives certainly wouldn't want to change to a democracy, because these less populous states are usually conservative. As I see it as an outside observer, Americans are ruled by a system of government that often frustrates the will of the people, rather than implements it. And please, don't take that as an attack, because as systems go, yours is one of the best. It's just not perfect, and it's not for everyone. And it's certasinly not democratic. If it were, George Bush would have never been elected, because his opponent got half a million more votes than he did.

 


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