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Author Topic: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb  (Read 5086 times)

Genrev

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Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« on: April 24, 2004, 08:48:49 AM »
Dear Mr. Warren and Everyone,

I am in need of help again.  I am still studying John 21, and when looking more closely at verse 9, I came to Luke 24.  Here are the verses I am looking at:


John 21

5  Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

9  As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.


Luke 24

41  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42  And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.


What I am wondering is what do the broiled fish and honeycomb represent spiritually.

From what we pretty much concluded earlier in the thread about the 153 fishes (I think), the 153 fishes represent true believers who have been brought through the fire by our Lord Jesus Christ.  But what do the fishes that are already on the coals of fire (John 21:9) and the broiled fish (Luke 24:42) represent?

And what does the honeycomb represent?

From what I understand, honey and the honeycomb signify "sweetness." 
Just an example...


Revelation 10

9  And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10  And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.


The word "sweet" brought to mind the many times in the Old Testament that we are told of a sweet smelling savour unto the Lord.

Just a few examples...


Genesis 8:21

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Exodous 29:18

And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.


Leviticus 1:9

But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.


And in the New Testament, we are told that Christ, the antitype of all of the Old Testament sacrifices, "hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour."


Ephesians 5:2

1  Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2  And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


Then in 2 Corinthians, we are told:


2 Corinthians 2

14  Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15  For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16  To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17  For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


So, my question is, are the verses I just listed applicable to Luke 24:42?  I just need to know if I am on the right track with this.  If not, what does that verse mean?

All help/correction/comments welcomed.

Blessings,
Minna


andreas

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 02:00:47 AM »
<<<I am in need of help again.  I am still studying John 21, and when looking more closely at verse 9,>>>

The fish on the fire was not the same fish the apostles caught,as you can see with the verse in John  21:9.
The fish on the fire was provided by Jesus.We are sailors in the  world,as the scriptures clearly tell us what the sea represents,
Rev 17:15,
Isa 8:7,
Jer 47:2.
When we safely reach the heavenly shore,Christ has already prepared a reward for us,here represented by the fish on the fire.
Rev 22:12,
Isa 40:10,
Jer17:10 ,
Ps. 28:4.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Genrev

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2004, 07:17:02 AM »
Dear Andreas,

Are you saying that John 21:9 is linked to our Lord's feeding of the five thousand (Matthew 14:13-21;  Mark 6:30-44;  Luke 9:10-17;  John 6:1-14) and of the four thousand (Matthew 15:32-39;  Mark 8:1-10) and reflects back to God's providing manna (food) for the Israelites in the wilderness?  If so, I can see this.

But how does Luke 24:41-43 fit into this, or does it?  Here the apostles feed the Lord.

Luke 24

41  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42  And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43  And he took it, and did eat before them.


Thanks for your help, Andreas.  It is most appreciated because I am obviously very confused about this, and I want to understand it.

Blessings,
Minna

andreas

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2004, 07:30:10 PM »
<<<But how does Luke 24:41-43 fit into this, or does it?>>>

 -Proof that he was resurrected.He appealed to their senses,eyes,"behold  my hands and my feet " Luke 24:39,and eating.A spirit can not eat material things."who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead."Acts 10:41.

-Spiritually it signifies that we will eat with Him in His kingdom once we landed on the heavenly shores.."that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom".Luke 22:30
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Genrev

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2004, 07:58:32 AM »
Dear Andreas,

Thank-you for those verses.  You have helped put things back in perscective for me.

Another thing that has been on my mind in relation to the verses in Luke 24 is this:

Does Samson's riddle have any bearing on them?


Luke 24

41  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42  And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43  And he took it, and did eat before them.



Judges 14:14 (Samson's Riddle)

And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

All help appreciated.

Blessings,
Minna

Genrev

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2004, 03:20:54 AM »
Dear Everyone,

I think I must have made another one of my blunders on this one.  Please forgive me.

But can anyone explain Samson's Riddle (Judges 14) and the Philistines' answer to Samson to me?

And does the honeycomb and honey in Scripture represent the Word of God?

Thanks so very much.

Blessings,
Minna

jd@

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2004, 03:51:28 AM »
Quote
But can anyone explain Samson's Riddle (Judges 14) and the Philistines' answer to Samson to me?

Yep.  Samson thought he'd help himself to some honey, (even though he wasn't supposed to be touching dead animals) and then decided to trick the Philistines by posing a riddle.  But they found out that he'd found the honey in the carcass of a lion.  As a result Samson went out and killed lots of people.  But God's plan was to deliver his people from the Philistines, and he used Samson to accomplish this. 

Genrev

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2004, 04:07:56 AM »
Dear jd@,

Thank-you for explaining this to me.  But I also need to know if there is spiritual significance to this riddle.  And if so, what does the lion represent?  What does the honey represent?  Does the meat symbolize something?

And does this chapter in Judges have any bearing on Luke 24?


Luke 24

41  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42  And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43  And he took it, and did eat before them.

44  And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Here is all of Judges 14:


Judges 14

1  And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.

2  And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

3  Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

4  But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

5  Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

6  And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

7  And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well.

8  And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.

9  And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.

10  So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do.

11  And it came to pass, when they saw him, that they brought thirty companions to be with him.

12  And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:

13  But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.

14  And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

15  And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

16  And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?

17  And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

18  And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? and what is stronger than a lion? And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

19  And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.

20  But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.



What is sweeter than honey?

and what is stronger than a lion?


All help appreciated.


Blessings,
Minna

jd@

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2004, 04:16:57 AM »
Why do you suppose that they have to represent anything??  The "spiritual" significance is that God uses sinful people like Samson in accomplishing his purposes. 

There is a grave danger in separating the physical and the spiritual.  This is what is sometimes called "Platonism", or at other times, "Gnosticism."  It manifests itself (amongst many other ways) in wanting to interpret all of the Scriptures allegorically - not being satisifed with the 'physical' (or historical, or literary or whatever) dimension to the various details we are given in Biblical narrative, it seeks to impose a "spiritual" interpretation as well. 

Be very careful, Minna.

Pearson

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2004, 04:47:15 AM »
Dear Everyone,

But can anyone explain Samson's Riddle (Judges 14) and the Philistines' answer to Samson to me?

And does the honeycomb and honey in Scripture represent the Word of God?


Minna, It's a riddle illustrating wisdom, which is of Christ. I think you will find the answer to Judges 14:14 in this verse.

 2nd Chronicles 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.

The fact that in 3 days they could not expound on the riddle illustrates the purpose of God. In other words, it was not given to the philistines who were the enemies of God, to know wisdom.

 Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Honey is symbolic of the word of God. The word of God came from the defeat of the strong, that is the lion. satan is called the strong one in matthew 12:29, and also called the lion who goes forth seeking whom he may devour. And Christ defeated him that his word might be revealed.

Or it could be that the lion represents Christ as the strong, who was slain for us, and out of him came forth the word of God.

Genrev

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2004, 05:47:45 AM »

There is a grave danger in separating the physical and the spiritual.  This is what is sometimes called "Platonism", or at other times, "Gnosticism."  It manifests itself (amongst many other ways) in wanting to interpret all of the Scriptures allegorically - not being satisifed with the 'physical' (or historical, or literary or whatever) dimension to the various details we are given in Biblical narrative, it seeks to impose a "spiritual" interpretation as well. 

Be very careful, Minna.

Dear jd@,

I thank you for your advice, but I am not wanting to separate the physical from the spiritual.  I believe that the account in Judges 14 is of a true historical event.  My question was is there a deeper spiritual truth in the account.  Gnosticism?  I pray not.  I am just trying to understand.  But again, thank-you for your warning.

Blessings,
Minna

Genrev

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2004, 06:03:53 AM »


Honey is symbolic of the word of God....

Quote


Dear Pearson,

Thank-you.  That answers one of my questions.  This is what I was thinking honey represents here, also.

Quote


 The word of God came from the defeat of the strong, that is the lion. satan is called the strong one in matthew 12:29, and also called the lion who goes forth seeking whom he may devour. And Christ defeated him that his word might be revealed.
...

Or it could be that the lion represents Christ as the strong, who was slain for us, and out of him came forth the word of God.

Quote

Yes, thank-you again, Pearson.  I can see it both ways....hence, the reason for my question.

We do know that Samson was counted among the righteous:


Hebrews 11

32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33  Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34  Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.


But I'm still stumped.  What do you think, Pearson?

Blessings,
Minna

jd@

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2004, 07:57:33 AM »
I mention Platonism because the allegorical method of interpretation was especially prevalent in Alexandria in the first few centuries, and it seemed to come directly as a result of Platonic infection.

Quote
My question was is there a deeper spiritual truth in the account

And the answer has to be, 'no'.  At least, not in the allegorising sense.  There is still plenty of truth that lies hidden because we don't read God's word closely enough.  We still need to think carefully about the details that the author gives us.  We need to put the story into the context of the history of redemption.  We do need to examine how the NT uses and applies the passage.  But we have no warrant whatsoever in foisting a symbolic meaning on every incidental detail.  Even if the Psalmist compares God's word to honey, we have no right to read that into the passage here.  God's word is certainly a unity, but there is also plenty of diversity - see my comments in the 'favorite gospel' thread for more details.

I fear that if we focus on these sort of details, we will miss the details that really metter - like Samson breaking is Nazirite vow.  It's called not being able to see the wood for the trees.


Pearson

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2004, 08:04:48 AM »
Quote
The word of God came from the defeat of the strong, that is the lion. satan is called the strong one in matthew 12:29, and also called the lion who goes forth seeking whom he may devour. And Christ defeated him that his word might be revealed.
...
Or it could be that the lion represents Christ as the strong, who was slain for us, and out of him came forth the word of God.


Yes, thank-you again, Pearson.  I can see it both ways....hence, the reason for my question.

We do know that Samson was counted among the righteous:


Hebrews 11

32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33  Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,


Which leads me to believe that the lion most likely represents the defeat of Satan because of the language of Samson stoping the mouth of lions, and he being a type of Christ. I think we are on good solid footing saying that it represents the defeat of the lion seeking whom he may devour. Satan is the strong lion seeking to devour the saints, but out of his defeat comes the revelation of the word of God which is sweeter than honey. This fits the riddle saying "out of the strong comes sweetness."

 Jeremiah 31:11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Also concerning the honey, I didn't provide scripture but I am sure that it represents the Word of God. The example you gave in Revelation of eating the book is excellent. There is also a like-passage in Ezekiel that also shows that it represents the word of God.

 Ezekiel 3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
 4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

God there equates the Word of God in the scroll to the sweetness of hooney. Do you agree?


jd@

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Re: Broiled Fish and an Honeycomb
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2004, 08:11:05 AM »
It's in Psalm 19, anyway.

Quote
This fits the riddle saying "out of the strong comes sweetness."

It fits, but that doesn't make it right.  Logical consistency is not the same as truth!!

Quote
I think we are on good solid footing saying that it represents the defeat of the lion seeking whom he may devour

That's a strong statement Pearson!  Just because Samson killed a lion and Satan is described as a lion, there is no Scriptural evidence whatsoever to suggest that one represents the other.

To be sure, Paul uses an allegorical interpretation of Genesis in Galatians, but I find it difficult to believe that he is setting us an example to follow.  After all, we're not inspired by God in that way...

 


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