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Author Topic: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17  (Read 47635 times)

Tony Warren

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2004, 03:06:19 AM »
>>>
Tony, if 5 heads were already fallen at the Cross, then why did Revelation 13 stated that 'one' of the heads were fatal wounded. Why not five heads?
<<<

I don't really think there can be much question about the chronology. Because the text was written "after" the cross, and it very plainly declares that 5 of the heads were already fallen. The heads are symbols, Biblical imagery that signifies "authority" to rule, such as a king, minister, messenger or prince. The number 7 is the number of perfect completeness or the "totality" of whatever is in view. Thus the totality of this rule or authority lasts for 7 spiritual ruling periods. Since we read in God's authoritative word that 5 of these 7 were placed before the time of this writing, and that one was then present, and one yet to come, the number and chronology of the rule is unmistakable. They are also pictured in Revelation as seven mountains, which "again" reiterates or confirms that it signifies their reign or rule. Because Mountains used in apocalyptic language of scripture symbolizes Kingdoms, and kingdoms represent ruling dominion. So we have certain Biblical facts that have to be considered in this interpretation. First, when the text was written, 5 of these authorities or rules of this beast had already ruled and had fallen. The 5th being the last, which fell when Christ dealt the kingdom of Satan a deathblow at the cross. This is the one head (5th) of Satan that was wounded unto death.

Psalms 68:20-22
  • "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
  • But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
  • The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"

This pictures Christ returning the captivity, the restoration of Israel by his death and resurrection and ascension to the throne of His kingdom. This Messianic psalm is detailing Christ's defeat of Satan and His freeing the captivity in the New Covenant dispensation (Jeremiah 31:23). In this redemption, the 5th kingdom has fallen as Christ has dealt it a death blow and wounded its head. Or again:

Revelation 13:1
  • "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
Revelation 13:3
  • "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

This is the same beast with seven heads and ten horns as we see in Revelation 17. This "head" wounded is symbolic of Satan's head or authority at the time of the fall of national Israel. Christ dealt Satan's kingdom a deathblow, and that was this 5th head falling. Satan's authority was crippled, as Satan was chained and bound by Christ for 1000 years. And yet as a dog on a chain, though Satan was bound he still has sway in the area (world) where his chain allows him access.

That was the last or 5th of the 5 heads that we read were fallen. Additionally, God's word tells us one head was present at the time that John was writing this, because though Satan was defeated by Christ at the cross, He still goes about in the world as a roaring lion but cannot thwart the efforts of the church. This is the 6th king/rule, the kingdom that we read "is and yet is not." And the final head or king that was "yet to come" is the 7th and takes place when we read that the head wounded would be healed. This speaks of Satan bound (head wounded) and hen Satan loosed (wound healed) to rule again. That is when there shall be the final 7th head or authority of Satan to rule. It is a period of great tribulation. So that is the totality (7) of the beast's rule throughout time. You may be mixing chapters and getting confused.


Quote
>>>
And whether the heads (authority) represents 'epoch' of Satan's rule throughout mankind? Are we biblically to divide time based on beast's heads?
<<<

What's to divide? God has already distributed the periods Himself. God unambiguously declared that five kings were fallen, one was, and one was yet to come, which totals seven. Thus the division and mystery is "revealed" by God, not by me. Whatever we believe these seven heads/mountains/kings are, they have to illustrate five of these heads already fallen "before" John wrote this text. And it "has" to be that one (6th) was still present (an important clue) when John wrote this text. And one "has" to be coming in the future (7th) sometime after John wrote this text. Thus we have a "CLEAR" Chronology of these 7 heads being separated by time, and extending from before John's time to after John's time. This is done by God, not by me. So we're not arbitrarily dividing time based on beasts heads, rather we are looking at the imagery of 7 heads, and "following the timeline of when they exist" according to what God has inspired written of them!

Again, 5 were gone already (past), 1 was (present), and 1 was yet to come (future) when John wrote about them. So them where is the mystery? This is the whole theme of Revelation laid out in the first chapter when the messenger of God said, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" This plainly telling us that it is a Revelation of things Past, Present, and Future. I believe that the chronology of the heads of the beast are the easiest part of Revelation. It's obviously imagery illustrating certain rules associated with the beast in the past, present (John's present), and future when the word declares that the 7th head will only continue for a "short space." But don't take my word for it.

Revelation 17:10
  • "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

That "short space" is the same as Revelation chapter 20 reveals that Satan must be loosed for a "little season." That little season is the short space of this last king's rule. If we want to know what these kings are, I believe that a careful study the scriptures will show that they (these heads) were part of the beast that has been around since before the Cross, and represent the universality of Satan's authority over man. This is what I believe on the basis of interpreting scripture by scripture.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Jeff

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2005, 03:52:23 AM »

 Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

What is the great city, the woman, who reigns over kings?

Erik Diamond

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2005, 10:55:48 AM »
Hello Jeff,

You might find an answer on this by visiting this link http://spiritualbiblestudies.com/BabylonReformat.htm. Dan Webster wrote a good study on Babylon the Great.

Erik Diamond


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Peng Bao

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2005, 07:37:02 AM »
For years the orthodox Church has taught that this woman represents the kingdom of Satan. Another view of the reformed Churches was that she represents the Roman catholic Church. Finally there is the view that she represents a one world power. Which view is more biblically correct in your view? Or is there another view that is more biblical?

Peng Bao

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2005, 07:39:10 AM »
Hello Jeff,

You might find an answer on this by visiting this link http://spiritualbiblestudies.com/BabylonReformat.htm. Dan Webster wrote a good study on Babylon the Great.

Erik Diamond

That's an interesting study. What do you think of the explanation of babylon in the book "Behold He Cometh?" It's close to this, but not quite. And could it be the Roman catholic Church?

Erik Diamond

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2005, 11:25:31 AM »
Quote
That's an interesting study. What do you think of the explanation of babylon in the book "Behold He Cometh?" It's close to this, but not quite. And could it be the Roman catholic Church?

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev 18:3  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

The keys here are WHEN and HOW.  The Verse 2 above clearly stated that this woman was once faithful representative of God but have 'become the habitation of the devils".  This won't take place UNTIL Satan will be released from the bottomless pit (Rev 20) and the abomination of desolation take place.  Does it sound like RCC, which have been here for a long, long time, long before the Great Tribulation period? Was RCC a faithful representative of God in the first place anyway? Hardly!

My point is that Babylon the Great was a  MYSTERY and cannot be understood by many.  She is a mystery because many people will deny or will not realized that their ''christian churches', regardless of denomination, are unfaithful? These people have tried to claim that Babylon is someone else other than their own churches, thinking theirs are still faithful. Only the Elects will be able to discern who Babylon really is, because they were commanded to flee from her. 

I have heard theroies about the world government, RCC, resecurrected Iraq, Vatican with future Pope, Unity World of Reglions, etc. You name it. But they are most likely wrong. 

I have not yet read "Behold He Cometh" so I could not comment on that at this time.

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Jeff

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2005, 04:43:23 AM »
Thanks. I believe mystery babylon is the Church also. I was just puzzled about how she "reigns over the kings of the earth" as verse 18 says. That would make her some kind of king, would it not? That is the point I was asking about.

 Revelation 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Herman Stowe

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2005, 05:28:46 AM »
Thanks. I believe mystery babylon is the Church also. I was just puzzled about how she "reigns over the kings of the earth" as verse 18 says. That would make her some kind of king, would it not? That is the point I was asking about.

 Revelation 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."



I don't know. Does the church reign over the kings of the earth? If not, then this great harlot cannot be the church. Do you agree with that? So the question I have for everyone is how does the church reign over the kings of the earth?


Bradley

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2005, 10:25:16 AM »
>>>I don't know. Does the church reign over the kings of the earth? If not, then this great harlot cannot be the church. Do you agree with that? So the question I have for everyone is how does the church reign over the kings of the earth?<<<

Revelation 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

1 Corinthians 4:7-9
7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Proverbs 8:13-19
13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, [even] all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour [are] with me; [yea], durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit [is] better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

The kings of the earth are those who possess (by grace) the true durable riches of wisdom and understanding (fear of the Lord).  We are made kings and priests by the power of God's regenerating Spirit.

Bradley

Jeff

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2005, 11:23:28 AM »

Revelation 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The kings of the earth are those who possess (by grace) the true durable riches of wisdom and understanding (fear of the Lord).  We are made kings and priests by the power of God's regenerating Spirit.

Bradley



Thanks Herman, I've been trying to get that question answered for a month. And thanks Bradley for answering it. This brings up a follow-up question. If the believers are the kings of the earth, then how are we fornicating with the great whore.

 Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Do believers fornicate with the false church?

Bradley

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2005, 02:09:31 PM »
>>>This brings up a follow-up question. If the believers are the kings of the earth, then how are we fornicating with the great whore.

 Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Do believers fornicate with the false church?<<<


This is where we must distinguish between the true eternal church and the corporate or visible church.  The true eternal church does not commit this fornication because they have the Holy Spirit leading them in all truth, but there are those who associate themselves with the church who will commit this fornication because they know not the truth. 

1 John 2:18-21
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Those who do commit fornication were never really part of the true eternal church, but they were part of the corporate visible church.  God calls the true church to separate themselves from the fornication.

Revelation 18:4-5
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

How are these kings fornicating with the great whore?  They do not know the truth and they are not being obedient to the Will of God.

Ephesians 5:15-18
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

We are suppose to be filled (drunk) with the Spirit which leads us in all truth (John 16:13), but these kings were not filled with the Spirit of Christ, they were filled with the spirit of antichrist.  They were drunk with the wine of the whore's fonication.  They went out with us, but they were never really of us.  They were associated with us, but they were not sealed with the Spirit of Christ (Ephesians 1:13).

We should not be caught unaware of these things, because God's Word plainly tells us the climate of these last days.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The great falling away where man exalts himself over God.  This is the abomination of desolation which is spoken of in the book of Daniel.  This all happens because God turns them over to strong delusion (2 Thes. 2:11) that they should believe the lie, the great deception of the spirit of Satan.  Just as God sealed his people with the Spirit of Truth, so will Satan mark his people with the spirit of error.  They will go about buying and selling falsehood.

Revelation 13:17-18
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

These people will be making merchandise of the gospel of Christ.  They will turn the visible church of God into a marketplace of man's wisdom because they will not be preaching the True Wisdom of God, just as in the days of Christ's first advent.

John 2:14-16
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In these last days we will see this same fornication played out in the corporate church.  We will see a forsaking of the truth of God's Word and we will see the merchandising of the gospel message.

Revelation 18:5-7
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

The church will not realize their husband, Christ, has left them, and they will not see the torment and sorrow which awaits them because their sins have reached to heaven.

Revelation 18:8-11
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

The judgment has come.  No longer is the salvation of God available.  Truly a time of great mourning and sadness.

Bradley

Herman Stowe

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2005, 01:59:23 PM »

Thanks Herman, I've been trying to get that question answered for a month. And thanks Bradley for answering it.


You're welcome. I find Revelation a fascinating topic that not enough conversation takes place about. It's the topic that brought me to this website as I was doing a search on it. Most places people are always discussing free will and predestination. Not that these are not important issue also, but it's been discussed to death.

Revelation chapter 17 I have found to be a particularly difficult chapter. For example, the ten kings making war with the Lamb. That's difficult to discern who they are. Especially since it says the Lamb overcomes them. Any ideas on this from you guys?


Baerchild

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2005, 08:05:21 PM »

Revelation chapter 17 I have found to be a particularly difficult chapter. For example, the ten kings making war with the Lamb. That's difficult to discern who they are. Especially since it says the Lamb overcomes them. Any ideas on this from you guys?



Herman Stowe,

Revelation 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


We must look for the parable or symbolism.  When God uses the number 10, it seems to represent All of them...however many there are. At the End, Judgement Day is coming and this world along with All of its unsaved creation is going to be dissolved by fire.

2 Peter 3:11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Jim

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2005, 04:00:28 AM »

 OK ? ? ?   But my question was really if anyone knew who the 10 kings were representing.

Baerchild

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Re: Commentary On Revelation Chapter 17
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2005, 10:50:28 AM »

 OK ? ? ?   But my question was really if anyone knew who the 10 kings were representing.


Herman Stowe,

From my viewpoint, Kings would point to the foundation of power [from Strong's] or authority having to do with the various "christian" religions around the world.  When viewing "the ten Kings" as a representation of all the world's leaders, there shouldn't be any surprise to learn that they are all corrupt but God is primarily dealing with His church  --  the visible representation of The Kingdom of God. 

Always look for the parable or the symbolism.  I hope this helps.

Jim

 


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