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Author Topic: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?  (Read 10253 times)

brandplucked

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What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« on: January 05, 2004, 11:38:23 PM »

What Happens if you are Not a King James Bible Only believer?

One of the first things that must occur for someone to no longer believe in a complete, infallible, inspired Bible is to somehow not believe or explain away the following verses that the Holy Bible says about itself.

THE PRESERVED WORD OF GOD

Even though the onslaught of Bible corruption has intensified in these last days, God has promised that He will preserve His Word pure for ever.

The Bible cannot be clearer concerning it's preservation:

Isaiah 40:8: "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the Word of our God shall stand for ever."

Psalm 12:6-7: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Psalm 138:2: "I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above all Thy name."

Psalm 100:5: "For the LORD is good; His mercy is everlasting; and His Truth endureth to all generations."

Psalm 33:11: "The Counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations."

Psalm 119:152, 160: "Concerning Thy Testimonies, I have known of old that Thou hast founded them for ever. ... Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of Thy Righteous Judgments endureth for ever.

Isaiah 59:21: "... My Spirit that is upon thee [Isaiah], and My words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."

Matthew 5:17-18: "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 24:35: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."

1 Peter 1:23-25: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

John 10:35: "... the Scripture cannot be broken."

Instead of believing God has preserved His infallible words in any single Book, the Bible of the Month Club member, who promotes a multitude of conflicting versions all based on different texts and changing the meanings of hundreds of verses, believes the true words of God are found "somewhere out there" in all the manuscripts, except where these have been corrupted by scribal errors. He thinks it is up to the scholars to try to restore what God apparently has lost, only his favorite group of scholars don't seem to be able to agree even among themselves as to which texts are correct nor how to translate them. Every man ends us "doing that which is right in his own eyes", and he no longer has any text or Bible he believes to be the infallible, inspired words of God.

I have been involved in the Bible version debate for several years now, and have had ample opportunity to find out what those who are not King James Bible only believers think and where they stand on this issue. I know God can and does use other versions to bring people to faith in Christ as their Saviour. I do not deny this; but that does not make them the repository of His complete and perfect words.

God never promised to give every nation a Bible, let alone a perfect Bible - see Psalms 147:19-20 for this biblical principle. "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." But God did promise to preserve His words and the evidence that He has done so perfectly only in the Authorized King James Bible is overwhelming.

Most of the popular modern versions like the NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV all are based on a very different Greek text than the time tested and God honoured King James Bible. See my article on the so called "oldest and best manuscripts" that form the basis of most modern translations.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/oldbest.html

See also the article dealing with the most disputed readings between the KJB and the modern versions in the Old Latin Version, which shows these readings were found in this ancient version 200 years before they were omitted by Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/OldLatin.html

The NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV also depart many times, and not always in the same places, from the Hebrew texts. See my two articles showing this at:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NIVapos.html

and http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NIVapos2.html

It is my contention that once a person no longer believes the King James Bible is the inerrant word of God, they become their own authority and they end up not believing any text or any Bible in any language is the infallible word of God.

The following quotes come from people who do not believe the KJB is the only true word of God in the English language. They have embraced the multitude of modern versions and this is how their thinking has been affected as a direct result.

A man who calls himself Robycop says the following: "the books of Kings & Chronicles were written by MEN, under the auspices of the Holy Spirit,hence,the differences among those books. You and I could observe a swimming pool and each make somewhat different estimates of how much water it holds-and it's entirely possible that the different writers did exactly that, or they got their info secondhand from another observer. You cannot truthfully attribute every word in those books to the Holy Spirit, as it's apparent that they differ among themselves."

Robycop: "But who are we to assume that the Holy Spirit said to these writers,"write down every word I say",and then dictated the text to these men. I believe it was more like,"Write down everything you have observed"-if He communicated directly with these men at all-and then He preserved these writings from then till now. For that reason,I believe all the differing accounts as presented in our English Bible translations."

Robycop: "The texts used by the translators of some versions didn't include words found in other texts used by other translators. Until the questions of textual authenticity or non-validity are answered, we have no authority to declare one correct to the exclusion of any other."

Another Christian called gconan says: "You know I do believe that we do have God's inspired, infallible Word! But we need several Bibles to be 100% correct."

At another Christian club I asked these questions, and Matt responded in the following way.

1. Where is the complete, infallible, pure, inerrant wordS of God today?

Matt>>> Those orignal Bible manuscripts no longer exist.

2. Where can I get a copy?

Matt>>>You can't. However, if you pick up a Nestle's Greek text you can see most of it. And if you get a New King James Version Bible, you will be able to get a drift of most of the message that the authors were trying to convey.

Matt

It is even more ironic, that though Matt is very vague about where God's words are found and seems to think we can only "get a drift of most of the message they were trying to convey" (how pathetic), but Matt seems blissfully unaware that the NKJV is not based on the Nestle Greek text, where he says "we can see most of it". The NKJV contains some 5000 more words and several whole verses not found in the Nestle text.

I frequently ask this question. "Do you personally believe that any text or any translation is the inerrant, inspired, complete words of God that you would not "correct" in any way?

Brother Scott, over at the Baptist Board answers: "I think that we are still on a quest to find not only the original words that were written in the autographs, but as our language and scholarship changes, so does our ability to effectively translate those manuscripts."

When I asked this same question, a Christian who calls himself Tinytim answers with uncharacteristic honesty: "No one has a complete infallible bible, God seen fit to destroy the originals. If you have a problem with that talk to Him. We do have reliable english translations that give us God's message to humankind, but to say that they are inspired, infallible, or inerrant is a lie. They are merely a translation. God preserved his words in the varying manuscripts. That's why I carry a parallel Bible. There is so much pride in the KJVO beliefs that it is sinful."

Another Christian who calles himself Archangel responds in this way: "I'd characterize the differences between our approaches more like this: you begin with a pre-determined notion about what God *must* have done; I look at the facts to determine what God has *actually* done. I hold that every believer has "soul liberty" in the matter of textual and translational differences and is responsible before God for his textual and translational choices concerning the Biblical text just as he is responsible before God for his interpretation of the Biblical text... I believe that God has given His word to the English-speaking people in many different translations both before and after 1611."

OK, let's check out the practical outworkings of Archangel's ideas. He goes on to post:

"The KJV has inferior translations in some places. Example: Mk. 1:10, where it renders the forceful Greek participle scizomenous -- meaning "torn open" or some similar equivalent -- as "opened," thus completely missing the force of the verb and its connection with Mk. 15:38. Since the translation of the KJV is capable of being improved here in Mk. 1:10, it is not "perfect."

To which I answered: "Well Archy, first of all the KJB is not alone in translating this word skizo as "opened" or "opening", for the Tyndale, NKJV, NASB, RSV, NKJV 1979 edition, Webster's, Weymouth, New Century Version, KJV 21, Third Millenium Bible, and the ESV do so as well.

Secondly, we see that this is the force of the word here in Mark, because in the other two accounts found in Matthew and Luke, the Holy Ghost used the word anoigo (to open) instead of skizo as here. Thus demonstrating the force of the word in this context." It seems others equally as qualified would disagree with Archangel's personal opinion.

Archangel also mentioned a second "shortcoming" of the KJB. He said: "The KJV lacks material which is clearly present in the original language texts. Example: Psalm 37 in Hebrew is an acrostic psalm (i.e., the first section begins with the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, the second section begins with the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and so on). This acrostic feature is not preserved in the KJV even though the translators demonstrated elsewhere that they knew how to do it (see the acrostic Psalm 119). Since the KJV is capable of being improved by structuring Psa. 37 in such a way as to preserve its acrostic feature, it is not "perfect."

I then answered Archangel in this manner: "It should be noted that not only does the KJB not render Psalm 37 as an acrostic but neither do the NKJV, NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, RV, ASV, Young's, Darby, NEB, nor the NRSV." Archangel should just go ahead and write his own bible version. That is the only way he will be satisfied.

At the Baptist Board, another professing Christian named Daniel says: "Now look, I could not continue (being a KJV onylist) when I saw each of these ERRORS that CANNOT BE EXPLAINED AWAY, I walked away from the KJV. Remember, I was KJVO. It took the truth to set me free."

Then Daniel posts the following examples of "errors that cannot be explained away".

1. Any use of "God forbid" in the New Testament. This is not a translation of the greek words for "God" and "forbid". The two words used literally mean: Certainly not or May it never be.

Daniel should do some more in depth study of this expression which is accurately rendered as "God forbid", instead of parroting such baseless objections raised by men like Doug Kutilek. Here is my article which destroys this false accusation.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/Godfd.html

2. 1 Timothy 6:20 - the KJV uses the word "science". Nevermind that the word is "Gnosis", meaning "knowledge".

Perhaps Daniel would do well to look up the meaning of the word "science".

Webster's dictionary: Etymology:   Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know 1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding 2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study 3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.

The word "science" means knowledge. Not only does the KJB translate gnosis as "science" but so also do Tyndale's New Testament, the Geneva Bible, the Spanish Reina Valera "ciencia", Italian Bibles "scienza", the Portuguese bibles, Webster's 1833 translation, Lamsa's 1933 translation of the Syriac Peshitta, the KJV 21st Century Version, and the Third Millenium Bible. What greater so called "science" is Satan using to try to destroy the Christian's faith in God's word than the two bugaboos of evolution and the "science" of textual criticism? For an in depth article showing the myth and hocus pocus that is the so called "science" of textual criticism go to my two-part series:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/science.html and http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/science2.html

3. Romans 8:16 - The KJV uses the word "itself" in reference to the Holy Spirit. Now, I prefer to not regard the Holy Spirit as Neuter as the cults do, but the KJV translators must have had an essoteric experience on this one. Nice work.

Again, Daniel would do well to do a little more study on this false accusation made by Doug Kutilek against the KJB reading of "it" for the Holy Ghost. Here is my article completely refuting this alleged error.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/rom8.html

4. Luke 1:35 - The KJV uses the word "thing" in reference to the Christ child. Now, from what I know, Christ was MALE, not a thing.

Once again, Daniel should learn a bit more before criticizing the KJB. The fact is the angel announcing the birth of the Saviour shows his amazement at what is happening - God is becoming a baby, and the Greek itself puts the expression in the neuter gender, not in the masculine. It literally reads "that holy thing being born", and so do Tyndale, the Geneva Bible, Young's "literal", Darby, the Diodati, Lamsa, Spanish Reina Valera, Webster's 1833 translation, and the American Standard Version. If Daniel would consult the NASB 1960 edition which reads: "that holy offspring", but in later editions was changed to "that holy child", he would see a footnote that says: "literally - that holy thing". Other places where a neuter gender is used to refer to Christ are Matthew 1:20, and 1 John 1:1.

Dr. Bob, one of the moderators of Baptist Board says: "One must examine the principles of choice of Greek readings in the new combined Greek text and then evaluate objectively and see which text is truly reflective of the "original". Personally, I opt to use the 1550 Stephens Greek text , then compare each verse to the modern eclectic text." This same Dr. Bob is the one who also said all the Hebrew texts have been corrupted in places, and he changes them when he thinks some "scribal error" has crept into the Hebrew readings. Dr. Bob has no inspired, complete, infallible Bible anywhere on this earth. He is his own final authority as to which texts to adopt and how to render them, and of course, his own personal mystical bible version is different from that of everybody else's.

The NKJV itself promotes this type of thinking where every man does that which is right in his own eyes. On page 1235 of the 1982 edition regarding the hundreds of variant readings listed in the footnotes, the NKJV editors say: (caps are mine) "It was the editors' conviction that the use of footnotes would encourage further inquiry by readers. The also recognized that IT WAS EASIER FOR THE AVERAGE READER TO DELETE SOMETHING HE OR SHE FELT WAS NOT PROPERLY A PART OF THE TEXT, than to insert a word or phrase which had been left out by the revisers."

Is the Bible the inspired word of God?

Many preachers will stand in the pulpit or Christian authors will write books in which they say "The Bible is the inspired, infallible word of God." But what exactly are they referring to when they say this? There are presently well over 100 different English bible versions available to the general public and none of them agree with the others in both text and meaning in hundreds of verses. I can easily prove this and it is well noted by many atheists, Muslims and other Bible bashers on the internet.

So, which of these different bibles is really the inspired, inerrant words of God? Or has the complete, pure, inerrant words of God been somehow lost in the shuffle and God has failed to preserve His words as He promised?

Some Christians say, "Well, only the originals were inspired." Since we don't have any of the originals and nobody knows what they really said, how can we then say the Bible is the inspired words of God? Shouldn't we be saying, the bible WAS the inspired word of God?

I believe, along with thousands of other Christians, that God has kept His promises to preserve His words and He has done so in the King James Bible.

Modern versionists will say they are examining the evidence and trying to come up with the best text to restore the words of God. I believe God has already gone through this process using the men He chose to bring forth the King James Bible. If God has already done this in order to preserve His words and carry out the great modern missionary movement, there is no need to do it again, unless He decides to put His words into another language other than English.

Some speak of the same general message and principles being found in all valid versions. Yet we can point out many direct contradictions concerning these basic principles.

The "any bible will do" position leads to uncertainty, doubt and unbelief. There are a multitude of contradictory versions, several whole verses being found in some that are not in others. (17 entire verses omitted from the New Testament in the NIV, NASB, and even more in the RSV - when compared to the KJB, NKJV, TMB.)

Is the Jesus Christ in your bible the one who lied in John 7:8 NASB, ESV? The KJB, NIV, RV, and NKJV say: "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up YET unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come"...verse 10 "But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret." But the NASB, ESV have Jesus saying: "I do NOT GO up to this feast... But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up".

Did the Lord Jesus Christ need a blood sacrifice to be cleansed from sin in Luke 2:22 as the NASB, NIV teach? Both these versions read: "when the days of THEIR purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished", as opposed to the KJB, NKJV, Geneva bibles which have "when the days of HER purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished". The only O.T. reference for this sin offering to make an atonements is found in Leviticus 12:6-8 where only the woman offered the sin offering for her purification.

Is the Lord Christ the one who has "origens from ancient times" in Micah 5:2 as the NIV, RSV, NWT teach, or were His "goings forth from everlasting" as the KJB, NKJV, NASB have it?

Can God be deceived as the NASB teaches in Ps. 78:36? The NASB says the children of Israel DECEIVED GOD with their mouths, but the NKJV, KJB, NIV, RV, ASV all say they "flattered" God with their mouths and lied unto Him. You can flatter God by saying nice things about Him but not letting Him control your behavior, but you certainly cannot deceive Him.

Is the Lord Jesus Christ the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God BEFORE His incarnation? The NIV never refers to Christ as "the only begotten Son". Christ was the only begotten Son from all eternity, but not in the NIV.

The NIV even perverts true doctrine when the Bible speaks of the resurrection of Christ, when He was quickened from the dead and raised again to life to become "the first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5), and "the firstborn from the dead (Col. 1:18).

In Psalm 2 and Acts 13:33 where God says (and ALL GREEK TEXTS read) "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus AGAIN: as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE". The specific Day that Christ was begotten from the dead was that first Easter morning. However the NIV actually says "Today I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER"!!!

The NIV here teaches that there was a time when God was not the Father of Christ. This is also the reading of the Jehovah witness "bible" (New World translation), and they use this verse and Micah 5:2, which also reads the same in their version as the NIV, to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being and not from everlasting.

Proverbs 14:5 tells us: "A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies."

There are many lies found in the new bible versions and it is the accumulation of such lies that reveal them to be false witnesses to the whole truth of God. One such lie is found in 2 Samuel 14:14.

The context is when Absalom had slain Amnon because he raped his sister Tamar. Absalom fled to Geshur and was there for three years, yet the soul of king David longed for his son Absalom. Joab decides to put words in the mouth of a wise woman from Tekoah and he sends her to speak to the king.

In the course of their conversation the woman finally tells king David in 2 Samuel 14: 13 -14: "the king doth speak this thing as one which is faulty, in that the king doth not fetch home again his banished. For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; NEITHER DOTH GOD RESPECT ANY PERSON: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."

The meaning is pretty straightforward. We all must die and God does not respect any person or show partiality to one more than another in this regard.

Other Bible versions that read as the King James Bible are the Geneva Bible of 1599, the Jewish Publication Society of America's 1917 translation, Young's "literal" translation, Daniel Webster's 1833 translation, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras, the KJV 21st Century version and the Third Millenium Bible.

However when we get to the New KJV, the NIV and the NASB instead of "neither doth God respect any person" they read "YET GOD DOES NOT TAKE AWAY LIFE". This is a lie and a contradiction.

Just two chapters before this event we read of the child born to David in his adulterous affair with Bathseba that "the LORD struck the child, and it was very sick" and on the seventh day it died. 2 Samuel 12:15. In Deuteronomy 32:39 God Himself says: "I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." In Genesis 38:7 and 10 we read of two wicked sons of Judah, Er and Onan "and the LORD SLEW him", and "wherefore he slew him also." I Samuel 2:6 tells us: "The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." And 2 Samuel 6:7 says: "And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah. and God smote him there for his error: and there he died by the ark of God."

In the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ says in Luke 12:5 "But I will forwarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

God obviously does indeed take away life, and the NKJV, NIV and NASB are all in error here in 2 Samuel 14:14 where they say that He doesn't take away life.

In 2 Peter 3:12 the KJB correctly says we are "looking for and HASTING UNTO the coming of the day of God". The date is already fixed in God's timetable and nothing we can do will make it come any faster. It is we who in our fleeting lives are fast moving towards that day. However the NKJV, NIV, NASB all teach that we can "speed" or "hasten" the coming of the day of God. This contradicts numerous other Scriptures and is a false doctrine. See my more complete article on this verse here: http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/hastingunto.html

God is "no respecter of persons", but the NKJV, NASB, NIV say God is not partial. Which one is the truth? The phrases do not mean the same thing. Exodus 4:11 "And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?". "The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all." Proverbs 22:2.

Not to show partiality is to treat all men equally; and this God does not do, as His word clearly testifies. For a fuller explanation see http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/respect.html

Our only hope of righteousness before God is to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ. He alone is our righteousness. Revelation 19:8 speaks of the church of God, the wife of the Lamb being arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. "for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints". Versions that read just like the KJV are Tyndale's New Testament of 1534, Geneva of 1599, Green’s interlinear, Daniel Webster's of 1833, Spanish Reina Valera of 1909, the Bible in Basic English, Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta, the Third Millenium Bible, and the 21st Century KJB version.

But the NKJV, NASB, ISV, Holman Christian Standard Bible, and the NIV have, “the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the saints.” If our righteous acts are going to make up our wedding dress, it will be pretty soiled and tattered. So, which one is true?

Psalm 10:4 describes a wicked man: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God; GOD IS NOT IN ALL HIS THOUGHTS." In other words, in everything this man thinks, God never enters the picture. The NKJV, NIV agree with the KJV. But the NAS has "All his thoughts are 'There is no God.'" Not even the staunchest atheist walks around all day long thinking; "there is no god, there is no god, there is no god." This is a false and preposterous statement in the NASB.

Ephesians 5:13 says along with the NKJV, NIV,ASV, Darby, Geneva and Spanish: "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light; for WHATSOEVER DOTH MAKE MANIFEST IS LIGHT." In other words, the light of God's truth shows things for what they really are. It tells us what sin and unrighteousness are by exposing them. The NAS would have us believe "everything that becomes visible is light," Oh, really?

1 Corinthians 8:4 "we know that an idol is nothing in the world" - this is the meaning found in the NIV, NKJV too. However the NASB says: "there is no such thing as an idol in the world". No idols in the world, huh?

Is Judah faithful to God as the KJB, RSV, NKJV teach or is Judah unruly against God as the NASB, NIV teach in Hosea 11:12?

These are just a few of the problems you have if you think God is the one guiding and directing the modern versionists. This God seems to be a bit confused and muddled in his thinking. He can't seem to make up his mind as to what he said or meant.

So if you think all these modern versions are from God, you have no sure words and your case is getting worse all the time as new versions continue to roll off the presses which in turn contradict the previous ones.

Wasn't there something written in the Bible that told us of the falling away from the faith in the last days?

Has Satan changed in his hatred and opposition to the words of God?

Has man "evolved" to a higher state in these last days and so now he can think more clearly?

If the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ is found only in the Bible, and this "bible" contains contradictions, false information, completely different meanings in scores of verses, many verses found in some but not in others, then how do we know the gospel of which they speak is true?

If God hasn't kept His promises to preserve His words, then how do you know God will keep His promise to preserve your soul?

Is the Bible the inspired, inerrant words of God? And if so, what are you referring to when you say this?

Will Kinney

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Re:What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2004, 06:17:22 AM »
Well... a few thoughts run through my head whenever I read something like this.

First, let me just say, I mean no disrespect for those who are so passionate about the word of God. I also treasure the written word.

I own and have used many different versions of the Bible over the years, and by far my preffered version to read and study, is indeed the King James Bible.

However, with that said, I am not a "KJV Only" advocate, nor am I dogmatic about it at all.  I'm a firm believer in the sovereign providence of God just as much on this issue, as in any other.

I always wonder, if the folks who spend this much time studying and lecturing, preparing papers and even writing books, on this 1 issue, spent an equal amount of time, simply delivering the simple truth of the gospel, what kind of difference we might see, in the church?  Maybe none at all, I have no idea.  

Honestly, I did not read this entire article here, only because it's likely I have read the same arguments and points in the past, as I was once a very staunch KJV only supporter (based in part because of books, articles, and lectures on the very topic).

Sometimes I think we get far too caught up in other things, and forget that we do indeed serve a most mighty God, who's will COMES to pass, in all things.

Is the message of the gospel, perverted in other versions?  It could be, there is alot of trash out there passing itself off as a bible.  But does that mean that ANY other version, apart from the King James, does not contain the accurate message of the gospel?  NO, it does not.

I know some pretty sound men and women of God, who use the NASB, and the NIV... does that mean they only "appear" doctrinally accurate, and could be MORE accurate, if they dumped their preffered versions, and used the KJV exclusively?  I'd guess, NO.

I like KJV, I do use it exclusively, because it's my personal favorite - but to say that anyone using any other version isn't getting the same message, to me seems to be a major BROAD stroke of the brush.

Anyway..... just a few thoughts.  ;D
In His love... CA

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Re:What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2004, 02:19:37 AM »
This post pertains to both 'KJV' threads that are in progress...  an issue that will no doubt be debated till Jesus comes.  But while we’re at it,  there are certain things that should never be lost sight of, which based on some of the comments I've read,  seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle.

Of most importance, it is through the Word of God, that He elects to save.  So the faithfulness of a translation does matter.

Rom 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 15:3
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

1 Thess 2:13
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Peter 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



Secondly,  Jesus Himself is referred to as The Word (John 1:1,14) and we are forewarned about false prophets & teachers who distort and pervert the Word of Truth.  So the stance that a translation or interpretation is not important, is both foolish and dangerous.

Titus 1:9-11
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

2 Cor 4:2
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Gal 1:9
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Ezek 22:28
28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.



Thirdly, we understand that without the leading of the Holy Spirit who provide us with eyes to ‘see’ and ears to 'hear', no translation is of value.  That’s what the parable of the sower is all about (Mark 4), and what many other Scriptures teach:

John 16:14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 10:44
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Matt 18:15-19
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(Note:   It’s only when our words, spoken in truth and in keeping with God’s Word, that what is already established or bound in heaven, becomes established or bound on earth).


So,  there is no question but that the faithful rendering of God’s Holy Word is of all importance, and Christ – as The Word, is central to the ‘true’ gospel, and to our very salvation.  Moreover, and fourthly, The Word is also central to God’s wrath and judgment on the unsaved world:

Rev 19:11, 13
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. …
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



Lastly and in conclusion,  when it comes to translations, the issue is not one of perfection (which can only be said of the original texts),  but one of relative faithfulness.  Like Christ_Alone, my preference is the KJV for reasons of overall faithfulness.   However, I am not going to lie and say I have never found other translations helpful.  I have invested in a parallel Bible which has about 6 translations (with KJV being the first) side-by-side for comparison.  As someone else mentioned in one of these 2 related threads,  such comparisons can be useful in our understanding of Scripture.

So while poor/unfaithful translations should not be deemed or overlooked as harmless, and while the KJV (though overall superior in it’s faithfulness)  is not perfect,  a bit of common sense can be used in utilizing other versions when warranted and beneficial to our study of God’s Word.   It’s the study of God’s Word which, in part, constitutes our ‘labor’ – but that’s a somewhat different topic.

2 Tim 2:15-18
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

(Notice, that even those who had just the OT were able to verify the NT teachings, because all encompass the same truths, each encompassing the other.)

1 Tim 5:17
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.



Words are powerful, even in the earthly sense; how much more powerful is the Word of God, rightly divided!

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

inspector

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Re:What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2004, 09:42:55 PM »

What Happens if you are Not a King James Bible Only believer?

................

It is my contention that once a person no longer believes the King James Bible is the inerrant word of God, they become their own authority and they end up not believing any text or any Bible in any language is the infallible word of God.

................

At the Baptist Board.......

Will Kinney


What role of authority did the TWycliffe Bible, yndale Bible, the Coverdale Bible, the Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Bishops Bible play if KJV is the only God given God inspired Word? Did all those people with English Bibles from 1382 to 1611 have the wrong Bible? What about everything before that?

Is posting all that stuff from another board necessary?

inspector

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Re:What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2004, 12:08:42 AM »
Typo. that was suppose to be ....the Wycliffe Bible, Tyndale Bible.....

Pearson

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Re:What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2004, 09:16:30 AM »
Quote
It is my contention that once a person no longer believes the King James Bible is the inerrant word of God, they become their own authority and they end up not believing any text or any Bible in any language is the infallible word of God.

That's absurd. I suppose that means before the King James Bible everyone was their own authority and ended up not believing any text. This argument has no basis in truth.

judykanova

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Re:What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2004, 05:15:49 PM »
Quote
However, with that said, I am not a "KJV Only" advocate, nor am I dogmatic about it at all.  I'm a firm believer in the sovereign providence of God just as much on this issue, as in any other.

I always wonder, if the folks who spend this much time studying and lecturing, preparing papers and even writing books, on this 1 issue, spent an equal amount of time, simply delivering the simple truth of the gospel, what kind of difference we might see, in the church?

Christ_Alone, Amen to that!!

Even though I too prefer the KJV (for it's overall superior faithfulness), this seeming idolization of a translation, which denies even minor mistakes of the KJV translators does not serve the cause of Christ.  And as you say, God is sovereign in this as He is in all things.  

We are each commanded to study to show ourselves approved, as the Bible itself is written in such a way as to root out the wheat from the tares, concerning spiritual things.

Mark 4:11-12
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Jer 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rom 2:13-15
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

2 Cor 3:2-3
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Prov 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Eccl 1:13
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith..


And again, those noble and honorable Bereans we often refer to as an example,  who only had the OT, but were able to confirm the NT teachings by diligently searching the Scriptures for truth.:

Acts 17:11-12
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few



I present the above Scriptures not to underestimate the importance of faithful translations, but to show (as you said Christ_Alone) that God is sovereign and in control of this matter concerning Bible versions as He is all other matters (whether we understand it or not).  He will save whom He will through His Word, revealing His truths in their hearts, as He enters into all things to work His good for those who love him.  

I think it no accident that the Strong’s and other major concordances (a great study tool) are keyed to the KJV.  But by the same token, this version ‘battle’ is not where the real fight lies.

judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Isaia

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2004, 12:05:43 AM »
Glory To God!

   Hebrews 11 is a chapter of Faith. Now you may ask, what relevance that has in this thread? All those saints mentioned by name in this chapter ( known to some as the role call of the Faithful ) lived in the OT times, before the KJB. Now I'm not saying that the KJB is not the best but we shouldn't say that it is the "only correct version". I feel that our God calls each of us in various ways and that not all are called via the KJB.
   
   Abraham was called the "Father of the faithful" even though he didn't read the KJB. We cannot allow ourselves to become blinded to the totality of God's truth just because in cannot be found in between the covers of a particular translation of His book or that it doesn't come in a form that we deem to be superior to others.

   " Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God ". We are told to hear God's Word ie Jesus Christ, where He speaks to us in KJB English, NIV English or a foreign language.

God Bless you all.

Dave Taylor

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 02:33:14 PM »
I have an honest question that I would like to ask; and I have never read anywhere an answer to it.

For those of you who believe the KJV is the only inspired, innerrant Bible that has been translated into the English Language; can any of you ask this simple question:

Which Bible prior to the publishing of the KJV, was the previous inspired, innerant Bible in the English Language?

p.s.
This is a bonus question I have also wondered about.

For the 300+ Language groups throughout the world that do not speak English, must they learn English before they will have access to the only Inspired, Innerrant Bible; or are there Bibles written in their own languages (non-English) that are also innerant and inspired?




Mtn_Bob

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2004, 11:05:46 PM »
brandplucked, greetings in Christ
I have Texus Receptus, Nestle and Wescott/Hort. I refer to them as I study particular verses. Not being a Greek scholar, I depend on lexicons for the translation. I have never seen any verse that has any significant differences in these 3 versions. Do you have, or can you direct me to a source that lists the variations?

Soli Deo Gloria
RB

brandplucked

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2004, 07:35:34 PM »
Hi saints, Sorry I haven't responded earlier.  I don't think I ever got an email notice and I lost track of this board.

Christ Alone posts: Honestly, I did not read this entire article here, only because it's likely I have read the same arguments and points in the past, as I was once a very staunch KJV only supporter (based in part because of books, articles, and lectures on the very topic).
Sometimes I think we get far too caught up in other things, and forget that we do indeed serve a most mighty God, who's will COMES to pass, in all things.
Is the message of the gospel, perverted in other versions?  It could be, there is alot of trash out there passing itself off as a bible.  But does that mean that ANY other version, apart from the King James, does not contain the accurate message of the gospel?  NO, it does not.
I know some pretty sound men and women of God, who use the NASB, and the NIV... does that mean they only "appear" doctrinally accurate, and could be MORE accurate, if they dumped their preffered versions, and used the KJV exclusively?  I'd guess, NO."

CA, the central issue is:  Do we have a complete, perfect, inerrant Holy Bible or not?  If you had taken the time to actually read some of the examples I listed of how the modern versions do pervert correct doctrine,  this might have answered some of your points.

One of the central truths of the Bible is that God does not lie and He has promised to preserve His words.  Did He do this or not?  If so, then where are they today?

God bless,

Will Kinney

brandplucked

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2004, 07:44:12 PM »
Hi Judy, there is much that you said I agree with.  However, you also closed with this:
"Lastly and in conclusion,  when it comes to translations, the issue is not one of perfection (which can only be said of the original texts),  but one of relative faithfulness.  Like Christ_Alone, my preference is the KJV for reasons of overall faithfulness.   However, I am not going to lie and say I have never found other translations helpful.  I have invested in a parallel Bible which has about 6 translations (with KJV being the first) side-by-side for comparison.  As someone else mentioned in one of these 2 related threads,  such comparisons can be useful in our understanding of Scripture."

Judy, there is no such thing as "the originals", so how do you know what "relative faithfulness" is?  God's true words are perfect - "the law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul" Ps. 19.

The bogus bibles like the nasb, nkjv, niv, rsv, esv etc. all have proveable errors and are each one translated from different texts in both the O.T. and the N. T.  Not one of them agrees with the others 100%.   I have a multitude of examples of the Bible Babel that exists if you think all these versions are equally the words of God.

Are you admitting that you do not believe any Bible or any single text is the preserved, inerrant words of God?  I think this is what you really believe, so why don't you just come out and say it?

Don't be afraid to admit what you really believe.  More and more Christians are now openly taking this view  - "There is no inspired, inerrant, complete, totally accurate Bible on the earth today, nor has there ever been one."  At least in this way we will know where the other person is coming from.

Blessings,

Will Kinney



brandplucked

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2004, 07:54:23 PM »
Hi Inspector, you ask: "What role of authority did the TWycliffe Bible, yndale Bible, the Coverdale Bible, the Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Bishops Bible play if KJV is the only God given God inspired Word? Did all those people with English Bibles from 1382 to 1611 have the wrong Bible? What about everything before that?
Is posting all that stuff from another board necessary?

   Inspector, these older English Bibles were what you Whateverists call "reliable translations".

They at least were generally based on the same Hebrew and Greek texts, except maybe Wycliffe.

The big problem with such versions as the NASB, NIV, ESV, Holman stuff is that they all frequently depart from the Hebrew Masoretic texts and use a very different Greek text for the N.T.

People can get saved using any bible version, no matter how poorly translated.  I do not dispute this.  The question is:  Do we have a complete, inerrant Holy Bible or not?  I believe we do and it is called the King James Holy Bible.  I believe your position is that we do not.

As for stuff from other boards, I take part in the Bible version discussion at several places.  I write the articles myself.  I am not pasting stuff that someone else has written.

Now, would you care to address this most vital issue or do you prefer to promote the Bible of the Month club nonsense?

Will Kinney

brandplucked

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2004, 08:36:37 PM »
Hi Dave, you post: "I have an honest question that I would like to ask; and I have never read anywhere an answer to it.
For those of you who believe the KJV is the only inspired, innerrant Bible that has been translated into the English Language; can any of you ask this simple question:
Which Bible prior to the publishing of the KJV, was the previous inspired, innerant Bible in the English Language?


There was none in the English language.  They were pretty close and generally based on the right texts, but they were not the perfect word of God in English.  I believe in the Providence and Sovereignty of God.  All these older English bible are now in the dustbin of history.  Only the King James Bible meets the criterion for being the true, inerrant words of God.


p.s.
This is a bonus question I have also wondered about.
For the 300+ Language groups throughout the world that do not speak English, must they learn English before they will have access to the only Inspired, Innerrant Bible; or are there Bibles written in their own languages (non-English) that are also innerant and inspired?


They do not need to learn English to get saved and have reasonably reliable translations, but it is my belief that only the King James Bible is the totally inerrant and inspired word of God.


Will Kinney

brandplucked

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Re: What Happens if you are Not a KJB only?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2004, 08:43:45 PM »
Hi Mtn. Bob, you ask: "I have Texus Receptus, Nestle and Wescott/Hort. I refer to them as I study particular verses. Not being a Greek scholar, I depend on lexicons for the translation. I have never seen any verse that has any significant differences in these 3 versions. Do you have, or can you direct me to a source that lists the variations?
Soli Deo Gloria
RB

Bob, there are many serious differences between the texts that underlie the KJB and those of the NASB, NIV, ESV stuff.  Here is a site that will show you some of these differences.  There are two parts to this site, but it is very easy to read.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html


Besides this, there is the question of translation, not just the underlying texts.  There are literally hundreds of verses where the meaning has been radically changed, even when they supposedly are following the same texts.  What you end up with a Confusion, and Bible Babel.

Will Kinney


 


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