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Author Topic: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)  (Read 6140 times)

judykanova

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The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« on: December 11, 2003, 01:08:56 AM »
1 John 5:6-12
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


I need help with this passage, particularly with verse 8.  I have glimpses of what this passage is teaching,  but I'm not sure if I’ve put it together into a cohesive whole.

Quote
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
[/color]

What is the significance  of ‘water’ and ‘blood’ in this context?  The life is in the blood, and it’s through the shed blood of Christ that we are given eternal life:

Lev 17:14  For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Rev 12:10-11  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.)


Does water in this context symbolizes baptism by water  (on the earthly level) and by the spirit (on the eternal level)?  

John 3:5-7  
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again

John 4:14
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Taken together, what does it mean when it says Jesus came by water and blood?  Does this verse deal with Christ coming in the flesh as our kinsman redeemer?  

1 Cor 15:21-22  
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



Quote
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This is pretty self-explanatory, and one of many verses that attest to the concept of the Trinity – one God in 3 persons.


Quote
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

This is the verse that I particular need help with.  It seems to draw a parallel between the Trinity in heaven, and an heavenly trio of elements -- the spirit, the water, and the blood.  I wonder, can these elements – spirit, water and blood, symbolize man who was made in the image of God?  Can it ultimately represent Christ as the Son of Man, yet who knew no sin?  And again, this reference to the blood, which seems somehow tied to the image of God , who made man in His own image.  These verses seem related in terms of how they link these elements to God's image.

Gen 9:6  
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
 
1 Cor 15:49-53
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Col 3:10
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:



Quote
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The prior verses culminate in these verses – namely there are  two levels or planes of bearing witness of Jesus as the Christ (Savior) -– the heavenly plane (Trinity) and the earthly plane (men who bear witness by their spirit.   Indeed, it is our spirit only that was made in the image of God, whereby, when quickened, enables us to also bear witness of Christ, as reflected in these verses:

Luke 11:13
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Rom 7:6
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



Am I on the right track here, particularly regarding these two parallel planes, and God’s image embodied in the spirit of true believers?  What about “the bood” and “the water”?

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

andreas

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2003, 02:51:40 AM »
<<<8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 

This is the verse that I particular need help with>>>

Judy,i think that the spirit is included here because without the spirit everything is meaningless.It is the spirit that quickens.Without it, the meaning of water and blood is clouded.Christ came by water and blood,to fulfill the ancient rites of cleansing,with water and sacrifices.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

judykanova

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2003, 05:55:01 AM »
Quote
Judy,i think that the spirit is included here because without the spirit everything is meaningless.It is the spirit that quickens.Without it, the meaning of water and blood is clouded.Christ came by water and blood,to fulfill the ancient rites of cleansing,with water and sacrifices.

Thanks andreas.  This helps.  Yes, I agree the 'spirit' is paramount, as it's the only one of the three elements that doesn't perish, and as you say, is 'quickened' when the Lord saves us.  And your feedback regarding the 'ancient ries of cleansing with water and sacrifices' (blood) is insightful.  

I just wonder why this trio of elements on earth, is linked to the Trinity in heaven?  I'm thinking that  the main concept is that of being one with Christ, even while we are yet in our fleshly bodies.  I think these verses help explain the passage in 1John 5

John 17:21-18:1
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Rom 12:5
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Cor 10:16-17
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Cor 12:12-13
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



Any more thoughts on this?

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Jeff

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2003, 07:37:01 AM »
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

judy


I think that the blood and the water are old testament signs which bear witness in to Israel's conversion, but which have no efficacy, so that God says not by water only, but by water and the spirit. The spirit being the efficacy which makes the water and blood effective. Like circumcision, there is a spiritual circumcision, and spiritual water, and the shed blood of Christ which is effective.

andreas

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2003, 05:59:13 PM »
<<<<I just wonder why this trio of elements on earth, is linked to the Trinity in heaven?  I'm thinking that  the main concept is that of being one with Christ, even while we are yet in our fleshly bodies.  I think these verses help explain the passage in 1John 5>>>>
The excellency of Christ is proved by six witnesses,three earthly and three heavenly.The heavenly are, the Father who sent the Son,the Son itself who became flesh,and the Holy Spirit.The earthly are, the water(sanctification),blood(justification)and our spirit which is the third witness,testifying that the Holy Spirit is truth,that is, what it tells us is true,that we are sons of God.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

judykanova

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2010, 01:21:59 AM »
I would appreciate your thoughts on  1 John 5, particularly verse 8.  Here is the passage I’d like to discuss:

1John 5:8
5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


The three that bear witness in heaven (verse 7) are clear, as being:
(1)   God the Father
(2)   Christ “the Word”
John 1
1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
4  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


(3)   The Holy Spirit

As an aside I ran across 2 passages where these three Witnesses are mentioned in an interesting way:
1Peter 1:2
  "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God The Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Colossians 2:2
  "That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of The Father, and of Christ;"
But I don’t want to get too far off topic, as we are incapable of fully understanding the ‘Godhead’ upon which the doctrine of the Trinity is based.



What I don’t understand clearly are the three who bear witness on earth - verse 8
(1)   The Spirit – Holy Spirit
(2)   the water ?
(3)   the blood ?

These passages appear to shed light on the meaning on ‘water’ and ‘blood’ in this context:

John 3:5
  "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

1John 5:6
  "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and  blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."


At this point it appears that ‘the blood’ symbolizes Christ – perhaps Christ in us.  And the water alone represents man – namely the elect of God.  As noted in the passage above, Christ came by both water (born of woman?), and by blood (the Word if Life)  who took on the form of man in order to become our kinsman redeemer.


Philippians 2:16
  "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

1John 1:1
  "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life;"
Thus ‘blood’, is identified with Christ, but is also identified with life, as Christ shed his blood  and give His life, so that we might have life eternal.

Leviticus 17:11
11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 17:14
  "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."



What is common to both triads of witnesses, is the the Holy Spirit, who Christ sent after he departed:

John 15:26
  "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from The Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from The Father, he shall testify of me:"


So in the context of 1 John 5:8, it appears that ‘water’ represents man – specifically the elect of God, and blood represents Christ (in us)
(1)   The Spirit –The Holy Spirit
(2)   the water – Man/The Elect of God?
(3)   the blood –Christ in us ?

As with those who bear witness in heaven – the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are of one accord, the same inter-relatedness  seems to be evident among those who bear witness on earth.

I have wondered about this for awhile  and may have even posted on it in years past but don’t recall.   Your  thoughts would be appreciated.

judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

da525382

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 06:47:25 PM »
I've heard baptismal regenerationists argue that the water is a water baptism.  Otherwise, I have no idea.........

Dustin

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 09:42:12 AM »
I've heard baptismal regenerationists argue that the water is a water baptism.  Otherwise, I have no idea.........

Well, that's certainly what the baptists argue, but they are in fact preoccupied with baptism, so everything is back to baptsm. However, biblically speaking, the witness of the Spirit, water and blood is the witness of Christ in us.

 1st John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 Christ is the witness of the water and Blood in us. The new birth in us.



judykanova

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 10:42:02 PM »
Thanks Dustin and da525382 for your posts.  I think we can all agree that water baptism can be eliminated, since it's an act and not a witness.  

Without fully understanding this, I suppose it can all boil down to the elect of God (sybolized frequently as the two witnesses)
who by virtue of salvation have Christ and the Holy Spirit dwelling within, and desire to do the will of the Father.

Here are a few more representative Scriptures to consider, which in this context, suggest that the 'blood' may more accurately represent the witness of the Gospel -- the new covenant of Grace

Matthew 26:28
  "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Matthew 24:14
  "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."



In a similar manner the old covenant of the law of God is also referred to as a witness:

Joshua 24:27
  "And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God."


As mentioned beflore these things are all inter-related. so although the blod points to Christ, in this context it may more specifically point to the Gosepl - covenant of Grace which Christ made possible by the shedding of his blood.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Stan Pat

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2010, 01:17:05 PM »
Quote
As with those who bear witness in heaven – the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are of one accord, the same inter-relatedness  seems to be evident among those who bear witness on earth.

Yes, because those who bear witness in earth are the One who is mentioned in the previous verse. namely, the three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, which are one. Likewise, they are one in us, as witnessed by the Spirit, the water and the blood. This represents the new birth. So the Spirit, the water and the blood are the three into the one.




Fred

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 06:11:45 PM »
Quote
The water and the blood refers to the New birth, as when a child is born it is accompanied by water (the breaking of the water or amniotic fluyid) and blood.

LOL! That's silly. I can't believe what I am hearing. Figures! Tony Warren and his spiritualizing!  ::) How would the water and blood symbolize natural birth, and not be literal?

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

That doesn't even sound right, as obviously it doesn't belong in the Bible, as all modern translations with their scholarly approach to the manuscripts of the Bible, have made very clear by not including it. All of Them!

Tony Warren

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 07:39:41 PM »
>>>
 The water and the blood refers to the New birth, as when a child is born it is accompanied by water (the breaking of the water or amniotic fluid) and blood.

LOL! That's silly.
<<<

Fred, Fred, Fred,
  The proverbial thorn in the flesh. Of course it is silly to you. For the spiritual things of God are indeed silly to the sensibilities of humanism. Nevertheless, it is witnessed truth in the minds of the elect, that they can comprehend them. Or as God puts it:

1st Corinthians 2:14-16
  • "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
  • But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
  • For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."


They are Spiritually discerned to God's people, but laughed at as foolishness to those who are not. Sound familiar? And exactly how do we know that we have the mind of Christ as opposed to the mind that thinks these things foolishness? It is through the witness of the Spirit, the water and blood of regeneration of this same new birth.


Quote
>>>
 I can't believe what I am hearing.
<<<

I don't doubt that. efer to 1st Corinthians 2:14-16. But does non-belief equate to these things being untrue? Or is the witness of the word made manifest by the Spirit of truth, the water and the blood? If these things are true, then exactly who can't hear it?

2nd Corinthians 4:3-4
  • "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
  • In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

the only question then is, is this the gospel, or my own private interpretations? each Christian has to decide that for themselves, hopefully, through the grace of the Spirit of truth.

Quote
>>>
Figures! Tony Warren and his spiritualizing!  ::)
<<<


Well, no man knows the spiritual except him that is born of the Spirit. That would be him who can only kmnow, by the Spirit of God. God is the revelator of the Spiuri, not I.

1st Corinthians 2:9-11
  • "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
  • But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
  • For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

The water and the blood bearing it witness.


Quote
>>>
 The water and the blood refers to the New birth, as when a child is born it is accompanied by water (the breaking of the water or amniotic fluid) and blood.

How would the water and blood symbolize natural birth, and not be literal?
<<<

It's not so far a walk to take, if you actually take the walk. First, the water and the Blood doesn't symbolize natural birth. Get that right first. God uses natural birth (accompanied by water and blood) "to symbolize" the spiuritual birth. Don't be like Nicodemus and think "LITERALLY!" Selah!

John 3:4-10
  • "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
  • Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  • That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  • Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
  • The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
  • Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
  • Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

So, rather than ask, "How would the water and blood symbolize natural birth," ask "why God uses the water of natural birth to symbolize spiritual birth?" How do we know? By the witness of the Spirit, the Water, and the blood, that is in agreement with the father, the Word and Holy Ghost. Selah!

Quote
>>>
That doesn't even sound right...
<<<

So they say. ..you, the experts, the scholars, the modern revisionists, etc. Funny, it sounds right to me. Both in the greek, and in the english translation.

1st John 5:8
  • "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

That you don't understand how the spirit, the water and the blood arew testifying in the earth, and agree with the "one" triune Godhead, doesn't surprise me. Based on your previous posts concerning much simpler things to understand. but I'm still hoping one day you might by grace of God, come around to see.


Quote
>>>
...as obviously it doesn't belong in the Bible, as all modern translations with their scholarly approach to the manuscripts of the Bible, have made very clear by not including it. All of Them!
<<<

Isn't scholarly approach and Modern translations an oxymoron? If you ask me, that is as good a witness for authenticity as all those I've heard for it not being authentic. As has already been said, these experts of these modern translations pick and choose when, and when not to include/exclude oldest/youngest, whatever, whenever, according to their agenda. I'm not going to get into an argument over the writings of Hebrew/Greek experts, manuscripts, texts, tenses, verbs, oldest, rarest, etc. (as I've said 20 times before), as it is my judgment such arguments are most always fruitless. I like to stick to simple Biblical exegesis and understanding of the text I understand as the Biblical record, rather than the endless arguments of men, ad nauseum, over translations and manuscripts. Generally, you're not going to find truth "out-there," but "in" the Bible. What I believe is the Bible based on my own studies over time.

Instead, let me deal with your, "it doesn't sound right" approach. I'll give you that it doesn't sound right to you (and apparently a lot of others), as does some other disputed texts included in the KJV (conincidence?), but the Bible wasn't authored to sound right, but to agree with itself. And if it didn't agree with the rest of the Bible, I would be the first to  suspect it. ..believe it or not!

The fact is, Water and Blood is used of God as symbolism (not literalism) of birth, to show a certain likeness/image (or spiritual picture) of the regeneration or new birth. Thus God uses this agreement with the triune Godhead in 1st John, with the witness in earth of the Spirit regeneration in the new birth of man. By this, we are the witnesses who come with the power of God on earth, through this real Spiritual regeneration.

Revelation 11:3
  • "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

This power isn't symbolic, it is intrinsical. It is the power of the Spirit in the witness of regeneration, that the messengers can be the mouthpiece of God. Power to become Sons of God who can go forth with the testimony of Christ. It is only through the spirit, water and the blood of the one. This rebirth assures Christ has total control over us that his work gets done.

Hebrews 12:2
  • "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Author and Finisher, Starter and Completer of that within us, because our faith is the product of the Spirit, the water and blood. It is the witness of Christ in us. because He is the first born from the dead, we are the firstborn from the dead, with the witness of the Spirit, Water and blood.

1st Corinthians 15:14-17
  • "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
  • Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
  • For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
  • And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."

God is not talking about us literally rising from the dead, but a Spiritual rebirth, that can only be accomplished in us through the first risen from the dead. Without the New Birth, signified by the Spirit, water and blood, we are false witnesses to a false regeneration. But we DO have the testimony of Christ, and it is specifically because of the Spirit, the water and the blood. The three that are one, in agreement with this witness in the earth of the regeneration. Which is why Revelation 11 spoke of God giving the Two Witnesses power, signifying the fire of God's Holy truth, through their mouths. Witnesses in earth by the Spirit, Water and Blood of the firstborn from the dead.

1st John 5:5-6
  • "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
  • This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."

Curious that verse 7-8 are considered spurious, and they are those that speak of the trinity. But here we have in verse 5-6 the interpretation of the disputed verses 7-8. Because really, there is no dispute except in the minds of men. Note carefully, God is referencing that Christ was born of water and blood and the "Spirit" beareth witness. This language to denote the fact that the Lord Jesus was truly a man, born of a Woman (Galatians 4:4-5)through water and blood. That there might be full evidence that he was Him prophesied to come from heaven in the form of a man, to redeem man. Likewise, when he died, a new birth was signified when out of his body came water and blood as the wicked pierced him. No, there is neither contradiction, nor question in my mind as to the authenticity, and its meaning relating to birth.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 12:38:55 AM »
Thank you all very much for your feedback.

I can see that the ‘water’ and ‘blood’ symbolize the new birth.  However, in this context, I had anticipated 3 distinct elements/persons, as is the case with the Godhead, albeit they are of one accord.

1John 5:8
8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one[/u].


Therefore I would appreciate feedback regarding an earlier post in which I proposed that the New Testament/the Gospel/the Word may be considered one of the elements.  Please comment on the following passages which seem to support this idea:

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament[/u], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel[/u] of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Thus Christ’s blood is described as the “blood of the new testament”, which should be preached to all nations “for a witness”.   Since the Gospel is specifically referred to as a “witness”, it appears to more closely fit the context of 1 John 5:8.

In a similar manner, the old testament is also referred to as a witness for those who lived/live under the law:

Joshua 24:27
And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness[/u] unto you, lest ye deny your God.

Deuteronomy 31:26
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness[/u] against thee.


So, although the blood points to Christ, regeneration, etc.,  in this context it may more specifically point to the Gospel--covenant of Grace which Christ made possible by the shedding of his blood.

I had also suggested earlier  that, in this context, it’s the ‘water’ that symbolizes regenerated/saved man, based on the following representative passages:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[/u]


In reference to regenerated man, the Bible appears to only make reference to ‘water’.  It is only in reference to Christ’s birth that both ‘water’ and ‘blood’ are linked together.  

1John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and  blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


The above passages seems to emphasis that Christ was not born by water only, but by water and blood.

(As an aside, I only have one child who was born via C-section.  However, in natural/uncomplicated childbirth the ‘water’ that breaks should not be bloody; blood is generally regarded as a sign of injury. Can the ladies here comment further on this?  I only mention this because some made literal reference to the natural childbirth process.)

Lastly, This passage seems to tie all three elements together:

Romans 10
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Thus in the above passage we have…
(1) The Holy Spirit/Comforter, who enables man to call upon God in an acceptable way, and who witnesses with our spirit
(2) The Gospel --The blood of the new testament/covenant must be heard (for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God), and
(3) The regenerated man -- born of water[/u], is commanded to go preach/give witness/testimony to the Gospel  to all the world.

Acts 26:16
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;



As is often the case, an element may symbolize more than one thing.  Therefore I do not disagree that blood and water is associated with regenerated man.  However, in this context , I think three separate elements may be in view, albeit of one accord, and the options presented here may be more applicable.

Again many thanks to everyone for your feedback & assistance with understanding this, and I look forward to additional responses to the options presented here.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Tony Warren

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2010, 10:05:29 AM »
>>>
As is often the case, an element may symbolize more than one thing.  Therefore I do not disagree that blood and water is associated with regenerated man.  However, in this context , I think three separate elements may be in view, albeit of one accord, and the options presented here may be more applicable.
<<<

Of course. That's why God says These "three" agree in one. or more accurately, these three are in one. In other words, these three elements of rebirth testify in earth to the previously mentioned triune Godhead. I think that is the easiest part of this whole thing. Breaking down the regeneration. The Spirit is the Revelator, the testimony of truth. The Water is the testimony of cleansing. And the blood the testimony of Atonement. And they all have their agreement in the triune Godhead. That whatsoever is loosed in earth, has been loosed in heaven. And whatsoever has been bound in earth, has been bound in heaven.
 
Spirit: The Witness of Truth in Us

John 15:26-27
  • "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
  • And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

1st John 5:6
  • "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."

1st Peter 1:11
  • "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Water: The Witness of Baptism (Spiritual)

Titus 3:5
  • "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Ephesians 5:26-27
  • "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the WORD,
  • That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

(Word being Christ, and neither H20 nor words wash anyone.)

Acts 1:5
  • "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Blood: The Witness of Atonement

Matthew 26:27-28
  • "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
  • For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Acts 20:28
  • "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Hebrews 13:20-21
  • "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
  • Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

These three, rather than negate the regeneration (new birth) symbolism, but give clarity to it. And I believe that this is the whole Point of God declaring that these three witness in earth, and are in the One! That without the one, there is no truth, nor new birth, nor witness nor cleansing, or atonement. Without the work of God come in thew flesh and sending His Spirit of revelation, there is no New birth. There is no witness in earth of the Spirit, Water and blood.


Quote
>>>
Thus in the above passage we have…
(1) The Holy Spirit/Comforter, who enables man to call upon God in an acceptable way, and who witnesses with our spirit
(2) The Gospel --The blood of the new testament  must be heard (for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God), and
(3) The regenerated man -- born of water,  is commanded to go preach/give witness/testimony to the Gospel  to all the world.
<<<

In general terms, I would not argue with that. Except to emphasize that the blood signifies more the atonement, fulfilling the Covenant/Testament, than it does the gospel. Of course, I fully understand that they are both related, and thus the true gospel is a witness to the blood. Witness is part and parcel of Water and Blood. But Spirit, Water and Blood, or what they symbolize, is more the engine of true Witness in earth, the three in One. And they are three to "signify" the purpose and will of God in earth. ie, the work of salvation through the regeneration, witnessed by the Spirit, Water and Blood. The gospel is the means, the Spirit, Water and Blood is the power thereof, in the one.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: The 3 That Bear Witness On Earth (Spirit, Water & Blood)
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2010, 01:00:39 PM »

Thus in the above passage we have…
(1) The Holy Spirit/Comforter, who enables man to call upon God in an acceptable way, and who witnesses with our spirit
(2) The Gospel --The blood of the new testament  must be heard (for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God), and
(3) The regenerated man -- born of water,  is commanded to go preach/give witness/testimony to the Gospel  to all the world.

In general terms, I would not argue with that. Except to emphasize that the blood signifies more the atonement, fulfilling the Covenant/Testament, than it does the gospel. Of course, I fully understand that they are both related, and thus the true gospel is a witness to the blood. Witness is part and parcel of Water and Blood. But Spirit, Water and Blood, or what they symbolize, is more the engine of true Witness in earth, the three in One. And they are three to "signify" the purpose and will of God in earth. ie, the work of salvation through the regeneration, witnessed by the Spirit, Water and Blood. The gospel is the means, the Spirit, Water and Blood is the power thereof, in the one.


Thank you Tony for again taking the time to respond and for providing valuable insight.   I have one question -- isn't the new Covenant/Testament  the same as the Gospel?  You seem to be making a distinction between the two, whereas I view them as the same, which is why I had earlier linked these passages together and said. . . .

Quote
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness[/u] unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Thus Christ’s blood is described as the “blood of the new testament”, which should be preached to all nations “for a witness”.   Since the Gospel is specifically referred to as a “witness”, it appears to more closely fit the context of 1 John 5:8.

In a similar manner, the old testament/covenant is also referred to as a witness for those who lived/live under the law:

Joshua 24:27
And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

Deuteronomy 31:26
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.



I think we can all agree that these three elements that give witness on earth ultimately point to Christ  -- which is the primary message here,  although we may have different views as to where the emphasis should be placed in this particular context, for He has many names -- the Word, the Lamb of God,, our Redeemer, our High Priest, our Lord and Savior. . . .

I give thanks that through Christ we too are "in the one".

Romans 12:5
  "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

1Corinthians 10:17
  "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."


judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

 


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