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Author Topic: Study in Revelation Chapter 11  (Read 9923 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2004, 07:30:46 PM »
Quote
So, as you stated, it all boils down to the trumpet.  The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet which is sounded in Rev. 11:15 after the witnesses were brought back to life (verse 11).  To disagree, a case would have to be made that the chapter is not intended to be in exact chronological order.
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I don’t blame you for suggested rapture for REV 11:11-12:

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

However, when we read the next two verses:

Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

I will try explain with help from Tony Warren's study.  ;)

This third woe is the declaration of the seventh and 'last trumpet' judgement. It is the final resurrection and the end of the World.

So when we ‘ascended up to heaven in a cloud’ BEFORE the ‘last trump’ (REV 11:12, 14-15), it will not be us literally going up into the air to meet the Lord...yet, but rather fleeing to God in His mountain (kingdom/heaven) during the fall of Babylon.  The ‘heaven’ in Revelation is often a representation of the Kingdom of Heaven, or the place of God, and the Spirit of life is the Holy Spirit. It is by the Spirit that they are called to ascend out of this death in these wicked streets and go up to the spiritual Kingdom of the great Zion.  Again,  the representation of the Kingdom of heaven. These witnesses are those who are blessed and who have the Spirit (hint: Spirit of Life) to not just verbally hear the Word, but to spiritually hear. Others in the city do not have the ears to hear the Word spiritually. The witnesses are those not only called, but chosen, and they will flee out of the midst of the city which has become a desert.

On top of this, we see 'clearly' in verse 15 that the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, and we 'know' that this is the last trump of God. It is the only Biblically justified time of the rapture. This being 'caught up' (Raptured) occurs at this last trumpet, not prior to that when the witnesses are called to symbolically ascend from the streets of this symbolic city (the Church) to heaven (the Kingdom).

The cloud in verse 12 signifies the Glory of God. This is a time of judgement upon this house when the priests will not be able to minister by reason of the Glory of God. When we read that the believers are told to come to heaven by God, and they stand up from death in the streets and go into a cloud, it's signifying that they are in the Glory of God. God is now going to make that unfaithful city desolate, and He doesn't want them there to be caught up in it. Which is again evidence that this was not talking about the rapture, because if it was, then time would be no more and the end of the world/age would happen right then and there. Because God swore that at the sound of the seventh trumpet, there would be time no more.

We read that their enemies beheld them. The wicked see these saints who they thought were dead, begin to prophecy again . No, it is not 'salvation' prophecy (inside or outside church) as you probably heard from radio group elsewhere.  I believe it is judgemental prophecy AGAINST Babylon. Not bring salvation outside the church.  

Anyway they stand up from these streets and leave Jerusalem, and the wicked of the city are angry and fear this mobilization. The enemies of God fear because the very foundation of their Church is shaken because of this exit, and though they do not repent of the iniquities which made this city abominable, they are troubled by this exodus just as the Judaizers troubled Paul and the Apostles. This is their fear of what is going on, and the fear of wicked men usually manifests itself in reviling, speaking evil against the saints, and in unrighteous anger. Sound fimiliar today?

Luke 21:25-26
(25)And there shall be signs in the Sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon earth distress of nations, with Perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(26)and men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
 
Those of the sea are symbolic of the unsaved world. The Church were fishers of men from the sea (world). The sea and waves roaring illustrates the world is full of iniquity and beating against the ships (Churches). There is distress and anguish as the unsaved are in a state of quandary, confused over evil of the world. And the Church has no answers because they have forsaken the God of the Bible, and are themselves running to and fro seeking the Word, but unable to find it. The city echoing the noise of iniquity in the sea. This is the fear in the enemies of the true Church. There is judgment upon this people, because this is the vengeance of the lord ushering in the coming of that which is perfect or complete.

Luke 21:22
for these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
 
It's the days of vengeance and the completion of all that was written. It is a time of God's judgment upon Babylon the Great for killing the saints, for spiritually shedding blood by their hatred. When the believers leave the Church,  their works leave with them, and there is nothing of the waters of life left there. They shall drink wormwood. There is no candle or lamp burning, as they are left in darkness. This city shall be left desolate.

If you want to study more about it. I strongly recommend that you read Tony Warren’s Revelation 11 study.

Peace,
EriK Diamond




"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Bradley

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2004, 01:15:17 PM »
Hey Erik,

I think you provided a reasonable explanation.  I would ask this of you:  the two witnesses are dead for 3 1/2 days which in my opinion parallels the last half of the final covenant week as defined by the time times and a half.  With your explanation, these two time frames no longer coincide.  The 3 1/2 days would have to finish prior to the times time and a half.

Daniel 12:1-7
1   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2   And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3   And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4   But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5   Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6   And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7   And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

I really see both of these time frames as equal.  We see in verse 3 a reference to the firmament and the stars.  These things are also reference in Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:2
2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This is the same time period as the 3 1/2 days which the witnesses are dead (Rev. 11:9) and the time times and a half from Daniel 12.  When the two witnesses are killed, the true gospel is silenced.  This is the meaning of the stars no longer giving their light.  The light is still there, but the false gospel is covering it up.

Revelation 9:1-4
1   And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2   And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 8:10-13
10   And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11   And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12   And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13   And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Jeremiah 8:14-20
14   Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.
15   We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!
16   The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.
17   For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.
18   When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.
19   Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?
20   The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

I think this entire time frame as described in Daniel 12 as a "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation" is the same time period described in Matthew 24:21 as "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  I think this same time period could be labeled as the day of the Lord as seen in Isaiah 13.

Isaiah 13:6-10
6   Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7   Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8   And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9   Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10   For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Mark 13:24-27
24   But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25   And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27   And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So, for me, I see the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses are dead as being the time when the true gospel witness is silenced.  It is the time when the false gospel (wormwood) is being taught in all of the churches.  It is a time where Satan is scattering the power of the people of God and when this time is completed, all the the things described in Daniel 12 will be finished (Daniel 12:7).  All these things include the dead in Christ being raised (Daniel 12:2) which completely coincides with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  Perhaps I have said too much, but I wanted to show how these passages are all so intertwined with the same truths.

Bradley





Erik Diamond

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2004, 05:24:51 PM »
Bradley,

I dont have much time but i will brief this.

The death of the two witnesses for 3-1/2 days are actually the first part of the Great Tribulation AFTER they finished their testimony af the end of the church age.  That is when Satan will be loosened. It will start bring in more abomination than ever to the point of desolation when we will be able to reconize in the middle of the Great Tribulation (when Spirit of Life) will be pour out upon him.

The second part of the Great Tribulation is a period that we are fleeing to Mountain of God as Satan taking hold of "fallen" city. It lasts until the second coming.  

Gotta go :-)

ERik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Bradley

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2004, 06:40:51 PM »
Hey Erik,

So you do not equate the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses are dead with the time times and a half of Daniel 12?  You do not equate the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses are dead with the forty and two months of Revelation 11:2?

What scriptures do you use to support the dividing of the second half of the final covenant week (Daniel 9:27) which begins with the abomination of desolation in the middle of the week (the same time at which the two witnesses are killed).  I find passages to descibe the first half of the final covenant week and passages to describe the second half of the covenant week, but none which divide the second half of the covenant week into two parts.

Bradley

Erik Diamond

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2004, 06:44:25 PM »
Email me at erikdiamond@comcast.net and I will email you a chart to help explain my position.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Dana Pescator

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2004, 06:01:42 AM »
It could be because the two witnesses can put people to death at this time. That's the context isn't it?

 Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

The two witnesses could be messengers of death.

Tony Warren

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2004, 02:55:15 PM »
>>>
I think we would all agree that these are representative of all churches throughout the ages.  In references to the churhes he uses the symbol of a candlestick.  But then in Revelation 11 when speaking of the two witnesses we are told they are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks.  The olive trees seem simple enough, these could represent true believers from National Israel from the OT, and the Israel of God from the NT, both grafted into the same olive tree.  But, why only 2 candlesticks, why doesn't it say 7 candlesticks?

It could be because the two witnesses can put people to death at this time. That's the context isn't it?
<<<

No, I do not think that these could represent true believers from National Israel from the OT, and the Israel of God from the NT, both grafted into the same olive tree. Because then they wouldn't be two Olive Trees, they would be one (as illustrated in Romans chapter 11). Rather, two witnesses are from the earliest history of God's law, designated as illustrative of the verification of "the truth." And that is what I believe that the Two Witnesses signify here in Revelation chapter 11. Examples of this power of two witnesses to establish truth can be clearly seen in, Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15; Matthew 18:16; 2nd Corinthians 13:1; 1st Timothy 5:19; Hebrews 10:28.

As for the number two, I think that it is obviously "Two Candlesticks" because the context is of the Lord's "Two Witnesses." Not Seven Witnesses. Therefore are they represented as two Candlesticks, Olive Trees, and Prophets. In other word, the symbol of two witnesses would then "logically" be two candlesticks, since the candlestick symbolizes the Church.

Revelation 11:3-4
  • "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
  • These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

God is talking about His two Witnesses, and therefore are they symbolized "as" two Candlesticks. So it is natural that they would be two. It would be out of flow (in this context) to call these "two" witnesses, the "seven" Candlesticks.

The important thing is that a Candlestick [luchnia] "symbolizes" the Church. The numbers are added as the context requires. We are all a candlestick (or lamp-stand), and numbers merely add spiritual significance depending upon the context.

Matthew 5:15-16
  • "Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
  • Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Again, it is the Church here that is symbolized by "A" candlestick [luchnia]. It doesn't mean that there is only one candlestick throughout the Bible, but in "this context" the Church is a candlestick. likewise, that is the figure in Revelation chapter 11 of two. One here, two in Revelation chapter 11 because they represent the two witnesses, and seven in Revelation chapter two because they are a representation of the "completeness" of Churches down through time. 7 symbolizes completeness or totality.

The two Witnesses equal two candlesticks equals two olive trees, equals two prophets. They all equal the Church. There are two of each because there are  "Two Witnesses" here. Thus the Spirit is poured out and our sons and daughters prophecy, because they are "these" two prophets. The Church.


Quote
>>>
It could be because the two witnesses can put people to death at this time. That's the context isn't it?
<<<


Well, yes. The Church has always been given judgment ever since Christ went to the cross (Revelation 20:4) and we were regenerated and raised up to live and reign with Christ. "because" we are "true" prophets, or Witnesses of the Word, and the word is judgment. True witnesses, as opposed to false prophets, which corrupt the Word of God. And because we bring the Word faithfully, we bring both Salvation, and judgment. Unfortunately, much of the Church is Oblivious to the fact that the Church by the preaching of the Word, brings judgment. Even though God tells us this plainly.

2nd Corinthians 2:15-17
  • "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
  • To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
  • For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

So yes, the "fire" from the mouths of these Witnesses of the Word is the Word of God uncorrupted, unadulterated, quoted Word for Word. Thus speak we in Christ. Thus the Word from our mouth is as fire to burn, and those burned "know it not."

Jeremiah 5:14
  • "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."

This word of the witnesses of God "is" the Word of God, and it is as fire, and the people are judged by it.

i.e., tried (tested) by fire. So yes, in this sense the two witnesses can put people to death at this time. That is the context of Revelation chapter 11. As indeed, God told the Church after Christ was resurrected, in Acts.

Acts 1:8
  • "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Here are the two witnesses God says He gives power to in Revelation 11. It's the Church. Total consistency. The Church given "power" to "witness" and "judgment" for 1260 days. The New Covenant Church period before Satan is loosed.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
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MightyMike

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2004, 12:32:05 PM »
In the opening chapters of Revelation, John addresses 7 letters to 7 different churches.  I think we would all agree that these are representative of all churches throughout the ages.  In references to the churhes he uses the symbol of a candlestick.  But then in Revelation 11 when speaking of the two witnesses we are told they are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks.  The olive trees seem simple enough, these could represent true believers from National Israel from the OT, and the Israel of God from the NT, both grafted into the same olive tree.  But, why only 2 candlesticks, why doesn't it say 7 candlesticks?

Any thoughts???[/b]
 
 
Howdy Sandy!

The Two Witnesses of the Book of Revelation Chapter 11 make an excellent Bible study.  Yes, The 7 Letters to the 7 Churches represent all of the Churches since the beginning of the Church age.  These 7 Letters do not represent Churches from all ages because the Church did not exist in the Old Testament.  The question that intrigues almost everyone these days is Where is the Church during Daniel's 70th Week?

Well, All we have to do is look at Daniel 9:24-27 and see if we can see the New Testament Church by studying what Paul said about the New Testament Church.   As any Bible Student should realize and know is that the 70 Weeks of years of Daniel 9:24-27 came about because of the sin committed against God by the Children of Israel in Leviticus Chapter 25.  

Now, Keeping Daniel 9:24-27 in mind, Let us look at what Paul has to say about the New Testament Church.  We find this in Romans 16:25-26 as follows...

Romans 16:25-26

25.  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26.  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Do you see this Sandy?  The New Testament Church was a revelation to Paul ONLY and NO Old Testament Prophet , major or minor, ever saw the New Testament Church in their Old Testament Prophecies.  With this powerful information in the forefronts of our minds, Looking now at Daniel 9:24-27, We can see clearly that the New Testament Church has NO PART in this Prophecy given to the Prophet Daniel by the angel Gabriel.

Therefore, When we get to the 70th Week of Daniel's 70 weeks of years Prophecy, Who do you think will be there during this time?  I can tell you who will be there.  The Descendents of Abraham as shown in Romans 11:8 and all those who have been concluded in unbelief, Romans 11:32 and Galations 3:22, from the Gentile side.  Since the New Testament Church is not involved in this Endtime Prophecy, Where do you think we are?

The point to remember about the 70th Week of Daniel is this Final Week is the very last week of the 70 Weeks of years that have been determined upon Daniel's People which are the Descendents of Abraham shown in Romans 11:8.  Romans Chapter 11 is a very powerful Chapter for the New Testament Church.  Many Replacement Theologists and those people who believe in the Replacement Doctrine have the interpretation of this Chapter all messed up.  The reason is simple.  They do not understand the Old Testament Prophecies and therefore do not believe what these Old Testament Prophecies actually say.          

Another point to keep in mind, Sandy, is that God always keeps His promises.  When God said He would punish the Children of Israel 7 times more for their unrepentent hearts for their Sin against Him, God kept His promise with these 70 weeks of years Prophecy found in Daniel Chapter 9.  So, The question is what is the 70th Week of Daniel for?

The answer is very simple.  The 70th Week of Daniel is used by God to purify, sanctify, and justify the unrepentent and Christ rejecting Children of Israel.  We see this very clearly in Zechariah 13:8-9.  This Purification, Sanctification, and Justification process is so severe that 2/3 of the Children of Israel will die.   Only 1/3 of them will survive.  This 1/3 becomes the Remnant that calls upon God and God hears them, Zechariah 13:9.   Now, Look very closely, Sandy.  Do you see the New Testament Church in this purification, sanctification, and justification process in Zechariah 13:8-9?  I do not because we, The New Testament Church is not there.  

Now, If you firmly believe that you are a Christ Rejector, Sandy, Then you, as a Gentile, will be required to be a participant of this 70th week.  If, however, on the other hand, You are not a Christ Rejector and you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then you already have been Purified, Sanctified, and Justified in the eyes of God and therefore are not required to go through Daniel's 70th week.  Therefore, Matthew 24:21 has no application for you at all.

Now, When we get the to Book of Revelation Chapter 11, The Two Witnesses come from which Group, Sandy?  Did they come from the New Testament Church?  How could they?  Or, Did they come from the Children of Israel?  The correct Biblical answer is they came from the Children of Israel, Zechariah 4:11-14, because the New Testament Church is not there.

Now, Watch this Sandy.  Look at Zechariah 4:11-14 as follows...

Zechariah 4:11-14

11.  Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12.  And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13.  And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14.  Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Let us take a look at Revelation 11:3-6 as follows...

Revelation 11:3-6

3.  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4.  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
   
5.  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6.  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Sandy, Someone who is anointed by God has great power.  In the Old Testament, The House of Israel was an Olive Tree and The House of Judah was an Olive Tree.  Hence, The Two Olive Trees.  The House of Israel was also a candlestick and the House of Judah was a candlestick.  In Endtime Bible Prophecy according to Ezekial Chapter 37, These two candlesticks of the House of Israel and the House of Judah would become one candlestick.  So, Which group do you think the Two Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11 come from?  The Children of Israel?  Or, The New Testament Church?

Something to think about!  I encourage you to study your Bible!

God Bless You! :)  

Ltanner09

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2004, 02:04:42 PM »
Quote
Now, When we get the to Book of Revelation Chapter 11, The Two Witnesses come from which Group, Sandy?  Did they come from the New Testament Church?  How could they?  Or, Did they come from the Children of Israel?  The correct Biblical answer is they came from the Children of Israel, Zechariah 4:11-14, because the New Testament Church is not there.

Since the Book of Revelation TELLS you what candlesticks represent, then why would you go outside the book of Revelation to try interpreting their meaning?


MightyMike

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2004, 02:47:14 PM »
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Now, When we get the to Book of Revelation Chapter 11, The Two Witnesses come from which Group, Sandy?  Did they come from the New Testament Church?  How could they?  Or, Did they come from the Children of Israel?  The correct Biblical answer is they came from the Children of Israel, Zechariah 4:11-14, because the New Testament Church is not there.

Since the Book of Revelation TELLS you what candlesticks represent, then why would you go outside the book of Revelation to try interpreting their meaning?

Howdy Lt!

The reason is very simple, friend.  The Old Testament Scriptures help us understand the symbolism in the Book of Revelation.  That is why it is very important, for the Christian of today, to study the Old Testament Scriptures when Studying the Book of Revelation.

When you do, You will come up with specifically which two groups the Two Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11 come from and your choices are The House of Israel and The House of Judah.  The Two Witnesses never come from the New Testament Church.  The Old Testament proves this!  

When do you DO NOT study the Old Testament Scriptures, You are left with Spiritualizing the symbolism of the Book of Revelation into anything a Christian chooses that symbolism to represent.  This type of Scripture interpretation is not good at all and violates the teachings of the Old Testament Scriptures.

So, Lt, Do you use the Old Testament Scriptures to help you interpret the Book of Revelation?  If not, Why not?

God Bless You! :)

johnrheb1227

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2004, 05:07:19 PM »
In the opening chapters of Revelation, John addresses 7 letters to 7 different churches.  I think we would all agree that these are representative of all churches throughout the ages.  In references to the churches he uses the symbol of a candlestick.  But then in Revelation 11 when speaking of the two witnesses we are told they are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks.  The olive trees seem simple enough, these could represent true believers from National Israel from the OT, and the Israel of God from the NT, both grafted into the same olive tree.  But, why only 2 candlesticks, why doesn't it say 7 candlesticks?

Any thoughts???  

Hi Sandy

I am amil, and I believe in the doctrine that Babylon represents all churches.
I am new here and yours is the first message I want to reply to: having done some deep study in this area maybe I might be able to help you. Do believe that the 2 candlesticks are the 2 olive trees we see in Zech 4. That said, the 2 candlesticks are also part of the 7 candlesticks we see in Rev 2. The reason why these 2 candlesticks are mentioned seperately from the other candlesticks is because these 2 candlesticks, or the two witnesses represent the body of Christ, the church.

Therefore when we see that Satan freed from the bottomless pit kills them, we are looking at the death of the church as being the body of Christ. I have a suggestion for your study, look very closely at the letters from the Lord Jesus to the 7 churches. Look at each one very carefully.  If this interests you I suggest that you let me know and we can look at this more closely.

May God be with you,

John


Melanie

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Re: Study in Revelation Chapter 11
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2010, 10:07:46 PM »
Since the Book of Revelation TELLS you what candlesticks represent, then why would you go outside the book of Revelation to try interpreting their meaning?
Howdy Lt!

The reason is very simple, friend.  The Old Testament Scriptures help us understand the symbolism in the Book of Revelation.  That is why it is very important, for the Christian of today, to study the Old Testament Scriptures when Studying the Book of Revelation.

 The more I read here, the more I wonder about people's ability to comprehend. The Book of Revelation TELLS you exactly what Candlesticks represent, and yet you throw that clear declaration all away, and claim it represents the Old Testament? Tell me how that makes any sense?

 Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

That's it. How anyone could read this and claim that's not really what it means is just so amazing to me.


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When you do, You will come up with specifically which two groups the Two Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11 come from and your choices are The House of Israel and The House of Judah.  The Two Witnesses never come from the New Testament Church.

 Matthew 18:16-17 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

 Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


 


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