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Author Topic: Are There Contradictions In The Bible  (Read 7460 times)

Drew

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Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« on: November 18, 2003, 11:13:50 AM »
 Exodus 24:9 "Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness."

Here we see that Moses and his apostles saw God standing. But then we read.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

If there are no contradictions, as I'm often told here, then what am I reading here?

terryf

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2003, 01:11:12 PM »
Drew,
The word "God" in Ex 24:9 is "Elohim" which happens to mean diety (plural) or more appropriately "Gods", where as the translation of "God" from any greek scripture refers to "YHWH" the name of the one true and most high God of the Universe. So this happens not to be a contradiction but rather indicates a change of culture and/or language.
God Bless!!!
Terryf

Layla

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2003, 07:04:03 PM »
Greetings Drew

If you look at the various scriptures within the NT that contain the translated word "seen" you will note that various Greek words are translated as "seen."  The particular Greek word for "seen" used in John 1:18 is different from the word that is used in the NT when speaking of viewing or perceiving with the natural "EYES".  I think something deeper is being said here because of the remainder of the scripture that states Jesus hath "declared" Him.  Therefore, I do not believe John is speaking of "seeing" God with the natural eye, but rather speaking of revealing the nature of God, which of course only Jesus Christ has accomplished.  

Peace,
Layla

judykanova

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2003, 01:34:03 AM »
The passage in Ex 24:10 sounds like a vision these men were given on the mount of Sinai,  comparable to the visions of John on the island of Patmos in Revelations, and Ezekiel’s visions of God’s glory in Ezek chapter 1, all depicting some aspect of God's glory.

Ex 24:10-12
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. ...
16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Ezek 1:1, 26-28
1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even bdownward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; ...
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


These men in all the above accounts -- (whether in a vision or in actuality matters little), were shown some aspects of God’s glory/presence.   Not unlike the 'cloud by day' and the 'pillar of fire by night' that accompanied the Isrealites from their exodus out of Egypt (Ex 13:21-22).

In any event,  no one has seen God in his full essence/glory.  Consider what the Bible teaches as a whole, particularly in this passage where Moses was allowed probably the  most ‘glimpse’ of God’s glory – for Moses, a mere man, was incapable of enduring more:

Ex 33:18-23
18 And he (Moses) said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he (God) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.  …
Ex 34:28-30
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.


So this is in perfect keeping with what Christ said in John 1:18 – that "No man hath seen God at any time…”.   What these men 'saw' (or experienced) instead was some small aspect of God's glory.  

judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

andreas

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2003, 02:07:34 AM »
<<<John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.">>>
Christ has declared him---------------------Told out, revealed, unveiled, displayed the Father,and the one who has done this is the only begotten, which is in the bosom of the Father,the bosom speaking of personal intimacy with the Father.In becoming flesh He did not leave that inseperable union.It is not the Son that was ,but is, at the bosom of the Father.Consider 1 Kings 8:12 and Ps.97:2.They tell us that God was not revealed,but in 1 Peter 2:9 and 1 John 1:5,7 we see that God is now revealed,declared by Christ.
andreas 8)
 
kai ean diabainhs di˘ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Tony Warren

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2003, 08:05:34 AM »
>>>
The passage in Ex 24:10 sounds like a vision these men were given on the mount of Sinai,  comparable to the visions of John on the island of Patmos in Revelations, and Ezekiel’s visions of God’s glory in Ezek chapter 1, all depicting some aspect of God's glory.

So this is in perfect keeping with what Christ said in John 1:18 – that "No man hath seen God at any time…”.   What these men 'saw' (or experienced) instead was some small aspect of God's glory.  

judy
<<<

This is on the right track Judy. In the Old Testament, often God would manifest Himself in the form of men. This was not the incarnate God (Christ), but a manifestation or "appearance" of God as a man. In theological terms, this is called a theophany. You're right of course, there certainly is no contradiction here.

A good example of this is when God's servant Jacob wrestled with God until the breaking of the day, and God changed his name to Israel.

Genesis 32:30
  • "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

There is a difference between seeing a manifestation of God, and God in the flesh (Christ), and the full Glory of God. These are three diverse things. We can only see God face to face in a manifestation or appearance of Him "like unto" a man. Though we know that God was not a man as He appeared unto them. And your example of Moses on the mountain is right on the mark.

Exodus 33:18-20
  • "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.[
  • And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
  • And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Moses was hidden from the glory of God because no one can see the actual face of God and live, and even being hidden from it, still his face shown like the sun so that the people were afraid of him.

And so it is quote understandable that God would have to manifest himself to man as a theophany, because (as He Himself has declared) no man can see Him and live.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2003, 08:24:38 AM »
>>>
Here we see that Moses and his apostles saw God standing. But then we read.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

If there are no contradictions, as I'm often told here, then what am I reading here?  
<<<

If I have a picture of my uncle, and show it to you, you could rightfully say that you have seen my uncle. But on the other hand, I can also say that you have never seen my Uncle, you've only seen the "appearance" or "representation" of Him. It's really the same principle at work here.

Ezekiel 1:28
  • "As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."

i.e., this wasn't the Glory of God, it was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2003, 10:53:11 AM »
Quote
This is on the right track Judy. In the Old Testament, often God would manifest Himself in the form of men. This was not the incarnate God (Christ), but a manifestation or "appearance" of God as a man. In theological terms, this is called a theophany. You're right of course, there certainly is no conntradiction here. ...

There is a difference between seeing a manifestation of God, and God in the flesh (Christ), and the full Glory of God. These are three diverse things. We can only see God face to face in a manifestation or appearance of Him "like unto" a man. Though we know that God was not a man as He appeared unto them.


Thanks so much Tony for clearing this up in my mind -- by explaining & demonstrating these 3 aspects of God's 'appearances' so succinctly with the use of Scripture and theological terms.

I also noticed, but didn't comment earlier, on a curious dichotomy between the account of God's appearance to the Israelites in general, versus His close encounter with Moses.  In one instance, God did not  'lay his hand' upon the Israelites, and they did "eat and drink", whereas Moses was called within the "midst of the cloud" where God was,  did neither "eat bread, nor drink water"

Ex 24:10-11
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


versus

Ex 24:16-17
16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel....
Ex 34:28-30
28 And he (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten
commandments.


It would seem that of this type of encounter, there are also 'degrees' depending on whether God ' lays hand' on the person,  and/or whether the person is called within 'the midst' of God's presence.  In the latter example, Moses is fully sustained and has no need of food nor drink... not even water for 40 days & nights which under normal circumstances is not possible.  I don't quite know what to make of this, other than this possibly being a picture of God's sustaining power of those indwelt by His Holy Spirit --  and that His Grace is indeed sufficient !??

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

GoldRush

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2003, 01:37:52 PM »
Judy,

It would seem that of this type of encounter, there are also 'degrees' depending on whether God ' lays hand' on the person,  and/or whether the person is called within 'the midst' of God's presence.  In the latter example, Moses is fully sustained and has no need of food nor drink... not even water for 40 days & nights which under normal circumstances is not possible.  I don't quite know what to make of this, other than this possibly being a picture of God's sustaining power of those indwelt by His Holy Spirit --  and that His Grace is indeed sufficient !??


Interesting . . .something neither of us ever gave thought to before.

Since this recent subject has been on our minds a lot . . .

We are wondering if this is perhaps another example of the difference between the external covenant peoples and those under the spiritual Covenant of God.

The temporal covenant represented by outward activities i.e. "eating and drinking," but the eternal Covenant represented by Moses who was fully sustained by the Spirit of God?

???

J&R



GoldRush
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da525382

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 11:45:40 PM »
I saw these verses on an arminian website presented to show that man must seek God first.  Do you think they contradict the scripture that is always quoted that there is NONE that seeks God (Romans 3:11)?


2Ch 15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

2Ch 17:3-4 - And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;  But sought to the [LORD] God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel.

2Ch 26:5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.

Jimmy

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 01:34:29 AM »
Jhn 15:16    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain:

Eph 1:4    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 2:1    And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Jhn 1:12        But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13        Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 3:11        There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Jhn 6:44        No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Pretty clear isn't it.
If Christ is in the boat we can smile at the storm

da525382

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 11:39:24 AM »
Oh, yes, Jimmy, it is clear indeed, I am already well aware of all of these passages.  I am just wondering how they are used to argue back to an arminian who claims they cannot contradict those passages in 2nd Chronicles.  For example, I have come up against the argument that the Romans 3:11 passage is "hyperbole", that because of the 2nd Chronicles passages, it must be interpreted as hyperbole.  So my question is more about how to provide a more directed reponse to this kind of argumentation.

Jimmy

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 11:52:34 PM »
Oh, yes, Jimmy, it is clear indeed, I am already well aware of all of these passages.  I am just wondering how they are used to argue back to an arminian who claims they cannot contradict those passages in 2nd Chronicles.  For example, I have come up against the argument that the Romans 3:11 passage is "hyperbole", that because of the 2nd Chronicles passages, it must be interpreted as hyperbole.  So my question is more about how to provide a more directed reponse to this kind of argumentation.
I think that it could be said that those passages in 2nd Chronicles cannot contradict these verses either. So the matter comes down to interpretation of scripture. To come to truth there must be harmony. For there are no contradictions in the Bible. (maybe apparent contradictions).

Do they know the definition of hyperbole.

Hyperbole–noun Rhetoric.
1.   obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.   an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

What a low regard for the Word of God.
I think a lesson on "Sola Scriptura" would be well.
Just my opinion.
If Christ is in the boat we can smile at the storm

Tony Warren

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 09:52:26 AM »
>>>
2Ch 15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

2Ch 17:3-4 - And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;  But sought to the [LORD] God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel.

2Ch 26:5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.
<<<

The real problem is, the Arminian seeks to read scripture in a vacuum, without any other input. But scripture taken out of the context of the whole Bible, is pretext. They tell you that we cannot contradict these scriptures, and they are right. But then they turn right around and seek to contradict scriptures that we present, by these same scriptures.

Psalms 10:4
  • "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

The wicked are any unsaved people. There are NONE that seeketh after God. That is no hyperbole, that is the unadulterated truth. The truth of this matter is a found in our being a little more objective, unbiased and all-inclusive in dealing with scripture. Both their scriptures and our scriptures are correct, and neither to be denied or made null and void by the other.

So the question is not if they sought Him, or if they found Him, but why they sought Him and found Him when God says no man seeks after Him.

Romans 3:11-12
  • "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
  • They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not onep."

Just as we cannot contradict chronicles by claiming it is not true, they cannot negate Romans with some claim it is a hyperbole. Hyperbole is just another way of saying, "it's not really true." But the true Bible believer knows that both statements are unquestionably true. Thus the answer is that when they were in their trouble, God drew them to seek the God of Israel. This is the only Biblical solution that is consistent with all of scripture and is totally confirmed by comparing scripture with scripture. It is unquestionably confirmed of God in other parts of scripture. So harmonizing all parts of scripture, taking none out of context, ignoring none, and rejecting none, we have our answer.

John 6:44-45
  • "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  • It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."


There is none that seeketh after God, and there is no man that can come to the Lord, unless God draw them first! Then and only then will they begin to seek God, as they are taught of God to seek.

Thus, the so-called Arminian mystery is found to be no mystery at all. They did seek the Lord, "but" it was because God Himself drew them to seek, and be found of Him.


Quote
>>>
For example, I have come up against the argument that the Romans 3:11 passage is "hyperbole", that because of the 2nd Chronicles passages, it must be interpreted as hyperbole.  So my question is more about how to provide a more directed reponse to this kind of argumentation.
<<<

It's not really going to matter what argument you supply them with, because unless God lay it upon their hearts to receive truth, they will always come up with another reason why truth, written word for word in scripture, is incorrect. Whether hyperbole, the Greek translation, interpretation, social morays of the time, etc., etc. You can't argue someone into the truth, God has to reveal it to them Spiritually. You are only a witness, not a convincer. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.

Jimmy's right..

Quote:

Do they know the definition of hyperbole.

Hyperbole–noun Rhetoric.
1.   obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.   an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

What a low regard for the Word of God.
I think a lesson on "Sola Scriptura" would be well.
Just my opinion.


There is none that seeketh after God" is NOT a hyperbole. It is a truth that is said many times, in many different ways in scripture.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

da525382

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Re: Are There Contradictions In The Bible
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2009, 01:33:00 PM »
Thank you, Tony, very much.  You know, it becomes tiring to hear them rely on the "hyperbole" argument...it seems that it doesn't matter what the topic is, the allegation sooner or later becomes "Well, you sure demonstrate your inability to know when scripture is hyperbole and when it is not....the Bible is full of hyperbole".  Then, at that point, the discussion necessariliy ends because there really is nothing more you can say, it seems.  I guess it all boils down to their interpretive scriptures of course have not an ounce of hyperbole, but everyone else's does.  So, I guess it's quite a feat to be able to have the advanced skills to cull through scripture and peel out only the non-hyperbolic ones to build their theology on.  So, what's left in their minds as far as relating to their classified "hyperbolic" scriptures???....Do they just see them as fillers?  As entertainment breaks??  I dunno...it's really impossible to engage this mentality, it seems to me.

 


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