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Author Topic: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15  (Read 21772 times)

andreas

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2005, 02:46:08 AM »
<<<Thank you Arnold. That's a good verse. It shows that works are a requirement>>>



 "an altar of earth shall you make me.....

if thou wilt make me an altar of stone,thou shall not built it of hewn stone,for if you lift up thy tool upon it ,thou hast polluted it.

neither shall you go up by steps unto mine altar'  Exodus 20:24-26



God was speaking to Moses,  about an altar, that it must be built of unhewn stones. On the altars, sacrifices were brought. The altar, then, was the confession, that we are sinful and that we look to God to provide a payment for our sin.

The instructions for the building of an altar were simplicity.  We read, "an altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee." They were  to mound up the earth as they traveled through the wilderness,  Or, that altar could be made of stone. But then we read, "If thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it." Hewn stones are stones that are cut with a tool, with a chisel and hammer.  They are the work of a man. God says, "No cut stones. Not something your hand has come upon to shape."  Always, the instruction is : "thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them. Thou shalt build the altar of the LORD thy God of whole stones" (Deut. 27:5, 6). Again, in Joshua 8 we read, "Joshua built an altar unto the LORD God of Israel … as Moses the servant of the LORD commanded … as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron." God said, "Upon My altar thou shalt not lift up thy tool. Thy hand shall not come upon it."

 God also said,  "Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar." That is, the altar was not to be elevated. It was not to be placed on a platform to which one would ascend by steps. "Thou shalt not go up by steps unto my altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered." Keep it on level ground.  "The way of atonement for your sin is not you going up." You cannot climb up to God by the steps of your making, by your works.

God  build an altar, on  Golgotha, the place of the Skull. It was the sacrifice of Jesus  on the cross for all of God's elect.   We do not climb up to that sacrifice. We do not pride ourselves for anything of ourselves. We do not rely upon anything in ourselves,for how can we add anything to the perfect work of Jesus?



andreas 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

dsouzaanthony

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2005, 05:38:25 AM »
Joe,

We can never be justified by our own works.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Salvation is all God's work. An elect of God is justified by HIS Faith, by HIS work, justified by HIS Blood and justified by HIS Grace.

I agree that faith is a work but whose work? It's all Christ's work in the lives of God's elect.

These things are impossible to be understood by people who are not saved.  Instead of arguing, we would do a better job of crying for mercy from God; perhaps, God would give us repentence if He so desires.

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Religious people think that they can please God with their own filthy, rotten works. But the above scripture says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  It's impossible without the work of Christ in our lives.

May the Lord grant you understanding.

DSOUZAANTHONY

Tony Warren

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2005, 06:18:28 AM »
>>>
I understand the parable you cited. Yes, Jesus is saying just because you served God for many years, you shouldn't complain because someone who only served God one month before he died receives the same reward as you, that is  eternal life. That is the reward that all Christians receive for serving God. However, Jesus is talking about "workers", not people who just went out in the field to take a nap.
<<<

Of course he is. That's my whole point, and the crux of your whole faulty premise that all Christian workers don't receive the same reward, but are rewarded differently, depending upon their own efforts. It's a grace through works gospel masquerading as a doctrine of grace. My whole point is that this argument of yours is not true, based upon what the scriptures plainly declare. They/we all receive the exact same reward for their work that they do in this world, regardless of how long, how much or how hard. And "NOT ONE" of us has anything to complain about concerning reward, or should think to expect something more. It's our duty as Christians to work, it's not something earned by varrying degrees of effort.

Luke 17:10
  • "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

We do not expect some special reward for our service on earth, because Christians should understand that they are servants of God, already bought with a price.

You say you understand Jesus, but then you effectively deny what He's said in the parable of the laborers. You are putting forth a works doctrine that alleges we each receive different rewards for varying degrees of work. That's not only contradictory to what Christ is saying there in that parable, but puts God in the position of being in debt to us (which cannot be grace) for our works.

As for the comment about taking a nap, this is the obligatory "Straw Man" argument which permeates every post of those who cannot seem to honorably deal with what people "actually" witness the Scripture as declaring. Since no one here (least of all myself) has said that Christians don't work or should not work, indeed we affirm our work or labor in the world. So the "nap" comment is without any real validity.

Hebrews 6:10
  • "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Our labor is a labor of love, not of looking to be rewarded. True love is as a gift you give wanting nothing in return. That's how Christ loves us, and how we should love Him.


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>>>
So please read the parable again and pay close attention on the words that Jesus used. A "worker" is someone who works. Why shouldn't they receive more reward if they deserve more?
<<<

You're piling on the "Straw Man" again. We all say that true Christians are servants of God and they all work. That is not in question. The question is, does that work earn him varying degrees of rewards depending upon how much/long/hard he worked, or do all Christians receive what they are covenanted to receive? Are we rewarded by Grace in the work of Christ, or by how we work? That is the pertinent question that you and so many others seem desperate to avoid.

Colossians 3:23-24
  • "And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
  • Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."


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>>>
When you comment on Hebrews 13:21 and 1st Corinthians 15:10 you aren't taking into consideration that Paul makes it clear that the "reason" he "works" more abundantly than all is "because" of the GRACE of God. God does not judge man's work in the same way as men do,
<<<

That's exactly right! The reason Paul works is "because" of the grace of God, not because he is better, more mnoral, stronger, wiser, or more capable in himself that he has earned more reward. The reason Paul wouldn't have faith without works is because he has the faith of Christ "living" in him moving him to work. You may have read my post witnessing to the word, but you haven't yet grasped the concept that God (not I) put forth. He "lived" by the "faith of Christ" in Him. It is written:

Galatians 2:20
  • "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

How much more succinct and clearly can it be said. ...by God!


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>>>
however. He rewards those who do more, and gives less reward to those who do less.
<<<

Are you murmuring against the good man of the house, as those in the parable? Where do you read this idea in the Holy scripture? Is this just your personal or private interpretation and conclusions based upon humanistic reasoning, or do you have Biblical support?

Matthew 20:10-11
  • " But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
  • And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,"

Clearly, unambiguously, God does not] give more reward to those who have done more in the field of service, nor give less reward to those who have done less. That is to say, according to the authority of the word. Now if we do not accept the authority of scripture,, then that is another matter.


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>>>
Take the woman who gave the penny, and of whom Jesus said she did more work than the rich man who gave a hundred dollars. Again, it's about works.
<<<

Correct, and you surmise from this, what? John the Baptist did more work than any man alive in his day, but the least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than He. Because they are all PERFECT, and he, being a man on earth in the flesh, was not! i.e., only in Christ would he be made perfect and "equal" with all the others in the Kingdom! Without Christ, even as good a man as John was (from our human perspective) he is less than the any man who receives the Kingdom. A murderer, a rapist, a thief who found Grace in God's sight and reigns in the Kingdom,  is greater than he.

Likewise, the woman who put a penny put more in than they all because her heart was right with God. It had nothing to do with the amount of work she did, it had to do with the condition of her heart. She could have just as easily put in more than all, and Christ would still say that she put in more "if her heart was right." You've missed the whole point of that story. It's not who worked more, or who gave more, it's the condition of the heart of the person giving. Is it a heart softened by Christ to be compassionate, or a heart hardened to think he can merit rewards. Are we right with God and confess our sins, or are we arrogant and self righteous as to think we can't be instructed and have no sin? Jesus made mention of this principle again and again. Pride verses meekness or humbleness before the word of God. It is evidence of the condition of our hearts. Therefore did this woman who put in a penny, was justified in God's sight while the others who put in much more were not. It's not about her work, but Christ's work in her.

When she cast in all the living that she had, she demonstrated her total trust and dependence upon the Lord. It was a sign that her heart was right with God.


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>>>
Jesus said we have to be careful not to do our "works" before men to be seen of them, but rather not to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. We are saved by grace, but lets not turn his grace into a license to sin. God's word warns us not to do this?
<<<

Who is turning grace into a license to sin? I have yet to hear anyone even remotely allude to this course of action, except you. You're the one saying it and implying we believe it. Again, that's the proverbial "Straw Man" you keep beating up on. But he's not real. Not a one of us have encouraged any man to either sin, or to avoid work or service to Christ. In point of fact, Biblical and Reformed Christianity is some of the strictest camps of Christianity there are. Biblical Christians are those least likely to be accused "righteously" of liberal philosophies as far as tolerating sin goes. So I think that you have your wires crossed and are not really dealing with what we are saying. Rather, you are dealing with what your "Obligatory Straw Man"  believes, and then trying to answer him as if it were us to further your cause.

So if you are going to discuss doctrines with us, you really have to address doctrines that we believe, not preconceived conclusions stuffed inside the straw man.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


John

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2005, 12:45:10 AM »
Quote
We can never be justified by our own works


God is the Author of faith. Christ is the object of faith. Works are the fruit of faith. Neither faith nor works make a person righteous before God. However, there are declarations concerning righteousness made in Scripture before different persons and for different reasons.

1. The elect are justified before God based on imputed righteousness
2. The person justified before God is also justified by faith before his/her own consciousness
3. The person justified before God and before his/her own consciousness is justified by works before others

God is faithful. God's faith is independent of men. Man's unbelief cannot render God's work ineffectual. The sinner is justified before God by God's faithfulness. God is pleased by the works of His Son, the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, that by which we can have Christ's righteousness imputed to us and also imparted to us, this being by grace. The Holy Spirit imparted righteousness to us because it had already been legally imputed to our account before God.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

The cause of our justification before God is by the Father's purpose in grace and His faith in that purpose. God's faith (pistis) is shown by the fact that God gave grace to all the elect via an eternal covenant before the world began. This required God to have faith (assurance) in His purpose -- He had perfect confidence in the Son's work.

2Ti 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began


The Father purposed salvation, the Son purchased salvation, and the grace of the Holy Spirit applies salvation, all apart from the recipient's assistance. God justified the elect sinner on the basis of His own faith, assurance, and confidence in the work of His Son alone.

Rom 8:33   Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The sinner has no part in his justification before God. Everyone who is believing is justified. Believing is the result of justification before God. Faith is the fruit of being justified before God.

Act 13:38-3938  Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39  And by Him all that are believing are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


A man's faith (work) could no more justify him before God than could his love or his hope. Love is greater than either faith or hope.

1Jo 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

1Jo 2:29   If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that practices righteousness has been born of Him.

1Jo 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one loving has been born of God, and knoweth God.

Those that practice righteousness is righteous because God is righteous. Those that practice righteousness do so because they have first been born of God. If we love, it is because we have first been born of God and are able to know God whose love we receive. The proof that we are justified before God is our practicing righteousness and loving one another.


The righteousness of God is imputed to us through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Jesus was appointed to die for the elect in order for us to become the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 3:22   Even the righteousness of God which is through the faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that are believing: for there is no difference:


We were reconciled to the Father when Jesus Christ died on behalf of all those the Father gave Him; this occurred at the cross. Jesus Christ was the propitiation of sins by satisfying Divine justice so that a righteous God could look with favor upon the sinner. Objective reconciliation occurred at the cross, but yet a man's heart must be subjectively reconciled to God also through regeneration. Subjective reconciliation occurs when God the Holy Spirit removes the sinner's enmity against God. We can not be subjectively reconciled unless first Christ objectively reconciled us to the Father. Subjective reconciliation (regeneration) is guaranteed by objective (Christ's) reconciliation.

It was because Christ propitiated the holy anger of God that God could then be propitious to those for whom Jesus Christ died. God's alienation from man was removed by Christ's propitiation. Still, the sinner has offended God and can not come to Him. Man has no more part in his reconciliation than in his faith or his justification. It is by grace that the elect receive reconciliation in that God's attitude toward the elect has been changed by the propitiation of Jesus Christ.

Christ's resurrection was proof that the Father accepted His Son's sacrifice, that it guaranteed the actual justification of the elect and the resurrection of their bodies (on the last day). The death of believers with Christ and their resurrection does not occur at their regeneration or conversion but with Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. We died with Him and are raised with Him.

The foundation of reconciliation is imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness. The imputed righteousness before God (based on Christ's work) guarantees imparted righteousness (regeneration). There is a difference between the imputed sin of Adam and the imputed righteousness of Christ.

1. All men were in Adam when he disobeyed but not all men are in Christ when He obeyed.
2. Original sin is imputed to us by our solidarity with Adam and imparted to us when we are created
3. Christ's righteousness was imputed to all the elect and imparted to the same upon regeneration

Faith and justification differ in nature. It is God that justifies not faith. Faith is the experience of the individual appropriating what the Father has declared. But regeneration is inseparable from its effects: which is faith. God-given faith does not come from hearing God's word - it is the fruit of regeneration. First one must be quickened by God before they can express faith. Man's confessing and believing upon Christ is made possible because righteousness has already been imputed to him and imparted to him.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth because of righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made because of salvation.

The heart believes because of righteousness (both imparted and imputed) and with the mouth he confesses because of his salvation. A regenerated heart will believe and this because of an ability to hear and the hearing is the message concerning Christ.

While objective reconciliation was performed alone by Christ, subjective reconciliation is an act of understanding that comes through regeneration. While God is reconciled to us through His Son, we are reconciled to God and restored to fellowship by an act of faith that apprehends the message and accepts it. When we sin our fellowship is broken with God, our reconciliation continues throughout our life on earth.

2Co 5:18-20
18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


Christ has objectively reconciled His elect to God, apart from us. The believers are given the job of the ministry of reconciliation to those who have been imputed and imparted His righteousness. God's elect appeal to the regenerate, through His word, to be reconciled. The only ones who will hear are those whom God has acted upon by grace. God's Spirit is sovereign and convicts those that have the Spirit of life and thereby have been given ears able to hear.


We are justified by faith before our own consciousness. This is not the same as the justification before God, we are justified by our own consciousness by imparted righteousness.  Yet, we could never be justified by faith in our consciousness apart from imparted righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
1  Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.



We have been once and for all time declared justified. We are justified by means of the faith God gave us when He regenerated us. We are already justified before God on the basis of imputed righteousness of Christ on behalf of the elect. We have "peace with God" because of the act of justification that has already taken place. Having been justified (in the past) we are having access as we are having peace (presently) and the fruition of hope of glory (future).

Abraham exemplified the life of faith. Was Abraham's faith the grounds of Abraham's justification?

Rom 4:2-3
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


God specifically and effectually called Abram while he lived in Ur of the Chaldes. The call effected obedience in Abraham -- he responded to God's call and he acted immediately on truth. He heard the call because he had an ear to hear. He did not question God.

Heb 11:8-10
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Abraham did not know or understand where God was sending him -- but he walked by faith, not by sight.

Rom 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him because of righteousness.

Abraham had already been justified before God and before his own conscience -- therefore his justification was manifested by his life of faith. The regenerated person is justified before men also by their works.

Rom 4:5   But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:9   Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

On "account of" or "because of" righteousness, faith was put to his account (reckoned) of Abraham. This was not Christ's objective righteousness but Abraham's subjective righteousness. The righteousness of faith that Abraham had was the result of imputed and imparted righteousness. Imputed and imparted righteousness are the cause of his faith-righteousness.

The regenerated person possesses the spirit of faith which is able to act and does. Subjective faith is God's gift to the person He has regenerated.

2Co 4:13   We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak

Works are the fruit of faith. Abraham was justified before men by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the alter. Abraham is an example of living faith (not dead faith). The life of faith that he was living justified him before men.

James 2:21-23
21  Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
22  You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected.
23  And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God.


Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him because of righteousness. Abraham believed God; it was put to his account because of righteousness; and righteousness refers to a state or quality of one who is in a right relationship with God. In other words, Abraham was not justified before God by his faith. Many years of faithful obedience occurred between Abraham's first act of faith (Gen 12:1) and the record concerning his life of faith (Gen 15:6). God's favor flowed to Abraham through his God-given faith.

James continues in verse 24 to show that justification by works is before men. He adds Rahab who was justified by her life of faith before men when she received the messengers and sent them out another way.

Jam 2:24   You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.

Faith without works is dead and dead works are without faith. Abraham, Rahab, Moses, and others demonstrated their faith by their works. They were justified by their works before men and before their consciousness. It is a declaration to their own consciousness of sins forgiven by both imputed and imparted righteousness.

If you are walking by faith in righteousness, as Abraham did, then you have already received His imparted righteousness by the power of the Holy Spirit, and this only because the Father had imputed the righteousness of Christ to your account before your birth. This is a chain that cannot be broken and is guaranteed. If you are not justified by righteous works before men and before your consciousness you are without living faith -- for living faith produces works. If without a living faith, then you have not received imputed righteousness (regeneration) and its accompanying spirit of faith that empowers you to live by faith. Abraham believed God and walked by faith -- and thereby was justified out of works that accompany faith.

God empowered Abraham to have faith -- the objective faith of Christ flowed to produce the subjective faith of Abraham. By the spirit of faith Abraham was empowered and fully persuaded to believe the words of God, having the ability to hear and obey.

Rom 4:20   and did not stagger by unbelief at the promise of God, but was empowered by faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21  and being fully persuaded that what He has promised, He is also able to do.
Rom 4:22   Because of this, "it was also counted to him for righteousness.

Because Abraham walked in obedience to God, his belief and trust in God, the fruit of regeneration, was reckoned to him for righteousness. Not only did Abraham's righteous works confirm in Abraham that he was a child of God but it attested before men that it was so. Abraham as any believer is the workmanship of God, "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph 2:10).

A person is declared righteous before God not on the basis of his imperfect faith but on the foundation of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. We cannot be justified before God by the keeping of the works of the Law, for then Christ's faithfulness is voided by the works of our faith - and this can not be. Our faith flows from the faithfulness of Christ and is given as a gift in salvation, by grace. Our good works are the result of being God's workmanship and attest to our consciousness that we are His and likewise declares among men that we are in Christ. We are therefore justified among men by the works of Christ being manifest in our life of faith.

john
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Joe Johnson

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2005, 07:44:37 AM »
John the Baptist did more work than any man alive in his day, but the least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than He. Because they are all PERFECT, and he, being a man was not!

What does that mean? The Matthew 11:11 passsage is speaking of our greater reward after we have completed our works. Those in heaven have been rewarded greater than John because they have their reward, and he doesn't yet.


Joe Johnson

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2005, 07:56:14 AM »
God is the Author of faith. Christ is the object of faith. Works are the fruit of faith.

But you said faith precedes work. You are confusing me. If faith precedes work, then how is faith work? Either faith is work, or faith doesn't precede work as you stated. But you can't have it both ways.

 II Thess. 1:11 "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:"

 God says faith is work. You say no, faith comes before work. I believe God is correct.


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Neither faith nor works make a person righteous before God.

You are still contradicting yourself.

 Rom. 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

 Righteousness is most certainly by faith.

Quote

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

God has faith and we also have faith.

 Mrk. 10:51-52"And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way".

That's what the scripture says.


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This required God to have faith (assurance) in His purpose -- He had perfect confidence in the Son's work.


I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean that we don't have faith, or that we don't work, or that we don't receive rewards for our works.


Joe Johnson

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2005, 08:11:15 AM »
Joe,

We can never be justified by our own works.



But can we be rewarded according to our works? I know we are saved by grace. But rewards wait for those who do good works on earth. And there can be no easy-believism, we must work or else we are not saved.


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Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Salvation is all God's work. An elect of God is justified by HIS Faith, by HIS work, justified by HIS Blood and justified by HIS Grace.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that everyone is christian without works. You have to have works, or else you have no justification before God.
 
 James 1:23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:"
 
 James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed".

  Clearly we have to be doers and work or else we are not saved.


Joe Johnson

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2005, 08:14:51 AM »

God  build an altar, on  Golgotha, the place of the Skull. It was the sacrifice of Jesus  on the cross for all of God's elect.   We do not climb up to that sacrifice. We do not pride ourselves for anything of ourselves. We do not rely upon anything in ourselves,for how can we add anything to the perfect work of Jesus?

andreas 8)


Then why does God say we have to be a doer, a worker, and not just a hearer? -James 1:23, 24 & 25 -

You have to work or else there is no justification before God.


Joe Johnson

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2005, 08:19:55 AM »
Joe,

I do not believe living faith is a work of man, but rather a work of God, and the reason I believe this is because it has been written in God's Word as such.


Bradley



Fine. But you still haven't harmonized how you say faith comes before work, when God says faith is work. It doesn't come before it, it is it! That contradiction is glaring, and you just want to gloss over it. If faith is work, then we can understand how Jesus says "thy faith has saved thee." I've shown you in scripture how faith is work, can you show me in scripture how faith comes before the work that it already is?

 IThess. 1:3 "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope"


Bradley

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2005, 10:34:58 AM »
>>>Fine. But you still haven't harmonized how you say faith comes before work, when God says faith is work. It doesn't come before it, it is it! That contradiction is glaring, and you just want to gloss over it. If faith is work, then we can understand how Jesus says "thy faith has saved thee." I've shown you in scripture how faith is work, can you show me in scripture how faith comes before the work that it already is?<<<

It is written . . .

Ephesians 2:5-10
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1. Dead in sins
2. Quickened together with Christ through the gift of his living faith
3. Created in Christ unto good works which were ordained by God

Bradley

Carol

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2005, 12:17:06 PM »
Quote from Joe:
Quote
But can we be rewarded according to our works? I know we are saved by grace. But rewards wait for those who do good works on earth. And there can be no easy-believism, we must work or else we are not saved.

Christ is our reward.  What more do you need?

After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."  Genesis 15:1

And do you believe faith is something we just muster up within ourselves?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.  Ephesians 2:8-9


Do you really believe we do good works in and of ourselves?  In ourselves, we are nothing but evil.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  Genesis 6:5

The only way we CAN do good works is by God working in us.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phillipians 2:13

Why do you believe you deserve to be (or even want to be) rewarded above and beyond the ultimate reward of spending eternity with Christ, for good works that HE performs in you?

Carol
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But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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John

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2005, 07:54:24 PM »
Quote
God is the Author of faith. Christ is the object of faith. Works are the fruit of faith.


But you said faith precedes work. You are confusing me. If faith precedes work, then how is faith work? Either faith is work, or faith doesn't precede work as you stated. But you can't have it both ways.

Faith is a work. But it is not your work. It is the result of life operating in our spirit that prior to regeneration was dead and unable and unwilling to believe.  This is the work of Christ -- not you.

Suppose you are justified before God by your own works or faith (which is a work). Then you would certainly have reason to boast. But we have no work to boast about -- our salvation is entirely God's doing. But God clearly says that our salvation is not of works but we are the works of Christ Jesus and made unto "good works".  This faith that we possess upon regeneration is a gift from God that comes by the power of the Holy Sprit -- by grace.


Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Which comes first: The good works that we do in Christ Jesus or the faith/trust/belief?  Obviously, we must first trust and believe that Christ is the redeemer of them that believe, by faith, before we would preach the gospel or try and convince men that it is so. Faith precedes works because it is by faith that we believe unto good works.

Now our faith manifest itself out of our spirit but that is not the first cause. Where did our faith originate?  Certainly not from within our dead spirit. It must have been given by God for only life comes from Life. A living spirit that can "see", "hear", and understand the truth -- a truth it couldn't comprehend before its regeneration, is the result of God's action upon us. If we have "ears to hear" it is because our spiritual organs are working whence before they were utterly dead and useless.

The faith that saves us does not originate within us then. If we look at Scripture we find that it was the faithfulness of Christ -- God's faith -- that brought about the propitiation of our sins, our justification before the Father (not by our works but by the works of Christ). Essentially the faith of Christ, the life of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ is given to them that are believing. Belief doesn't preceed the gift or life that makes believing possible. We receive the promise of life not because we manifested faith in ourselves -- it is by the faith (faithfulness) of Jesus Christ that these thing can be.

Ga 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

What are the fruits of having a living spirit?  Well, read through Galatians 2:16 and among the manifestation of life, all of which are works that permeate the new life of a Christian, is:  Faith!  Yes faith is a work but it is also fruit from a living tree -- that is a regenerated spirit.

Ga 5:22
But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 


In other words, our faith is the manifestation of a living spirit, which is the work of God.

Now the next thing to understand is that we are justified before men and before our conscience by the works that flow from a living faith. Our good works are the evidence before our eyes that we are saved. A life devoid of good works toward God means there is no living faith which indicates that we were never indwelt by the Living Spirit of Christ that works these works in us.

Don't get confused and think that our justification before men is the same as our justification before God -- it's not. Our justification before God is based on the works of Christ and the faithfulness of the Son in executing the Father's will. We are not partakers of being justified (declared righteous) before God -- it is a judicial act between Christ who is our propitiation and the Father who has been offended by our sin.

Ga 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ , even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ , and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


But we are justified before men (and ourselves) by our faithful obedience unto good works. Abraham faithfully led a life of good works -- by the power of Christ -- as his faith was the fruit of regeneration. His belief and trust in God was reckoned to him for righteousness -- for Abraham (and all that have the faith of Abraham) are righteous if they do the deeds of faith -- which is good works. If no good works but only unrighteous deeds sprout forth -- then we are an "evil tree".

Abraham and you and me produce fruits of righteousness "by means of" (by) Jesus Christ. Our works (must we say this again), just as Abraham's works, were done by the means of the power of Jesus Christ. 

Philippians 1:11
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. 


As Hebrews says, we are made perfect to good works because Jesus Christ is working in us so that we do that which is good in His sight. Again, our works are the workmanship of God and we are walking in them by the power of God.

Heb 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Quote
Neither faith nor works make a person righteous before God.

You are still contradicting yourself.

Rom. 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

We are not declared righteous by the Father by our works: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. The declaration that we have the righteousness of God is solely because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in His substitutionary death. It is declared by Christ to the Father so that Father now "sees" in His Son the elect as perfect, purified, and clean. The faithfulness of God has brought about this justification -- not our works.

But again, we must be careful to delineate which the Bible is talking about -- imputed righteousness or imparted righteousness.  Imputed righteousness is by the faith of Christ -- not our faith. Imparted righteousness is due to the act of God in resurrecting our spirit to newness of life. The born from above spirit, by involuntary action, exercises its members of faith/trust/belief. Think of the effects of regeneration that causes faith as the blind beggar seeing -- he saw because that is the function of a working eye. We "see" spiritually because that is the function of a living spirit -- that is its nature. And because we "see" and can understand our faith grows. Our faith is a work -- but not one we can take credit for -- it is tied inescapably back to regeneration, which is the power of God.

Quote
God has faith and we also have faith.

Mrk. 10:51-52"And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way".

That's what the scripture says.


Again, the faith of the blind man, if we go behind the scenes, is not dredged up from within the blind man. It is the Lord's regenerative power to re-birth his spirit -- which then allows the natural product of faith to be manifested. Notice the blind man followed Jesus immediately -- a work of faith. Recall that faith without works is dead -- but the blind man worked the works of a living faith.


Quote
This required God to have faith (assurance) in His purpose -- He had perfect confidence in the Son's work.

I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean that we don't have faith, or that we don't work, or that we don't receive rewards for our works.

It doesn't mean that we do not possess faith or that we don't express our faith by our works -- we do. But, again, our faith is the result of the power of God working in us and through us. Our precious faith is by the means of (through) the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Christ's righteousness and Christ's faithfulness result in our justification before God -- because we were "in Christ" when He faithfully endured hell and made the payment for us. Therefore we are also declared righteous before the Father.

2Pe 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Our faith, as 2 Peter 1:1 says clearly, is by the means of Christ's righteous work in atoning for our sins. The application of this work is in God's act of regeneration. It was not enough that God imputed our sin to Christ and Christ's righteousness to the elect -- in time, God had to apply that victory to us through the new birth. It is the new birth that produces the faith and the new faith that produces good works in our life -- which works convict us that we are indeed a child of God. We are justified before our conscience by our good works and before men that our obedient works (including our faith) are proof of God working in us (thereby we know we are saved).

As to rewards for our works -- what can we claim??  God has declared that all our works after regeneration are the result of His work, that our new creation (regeneration) is unto good works by Christ Jesus -- that all this is ordained by God beforehand.  We can claim nothing. We walk in obedience doing good -- then praise God for it is His power that upholds you.  Should God reward YOU for something that HE does?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

If you work the works of God then we must agree with Jesus: This is the work of God: That you believe!  Belief is a work, faith is a work, trusting God is a work -- they are all works that God has done and are the "work of God".  Do not think they originate within yourself -- for Scripture is clear that our salvation and the faith it generates and all the works that follow that are seen by men are all the works of God.

John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



Our reward is eternal life -- and that is the gift of God toward His elect. No one is greater in the kingdom -- not John the Baptist or Moses or you or me -- they all walked the walk of faith by the power of God -- they have no more to boast about than you or I.  We are all sinners saved by grace and are all on equal footing before the Father. 

Ro 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

andreas

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2005, 12:49:16 AM »
<<<Then why does God say we have to be a doer, a worker, and not just a hearer? -James 1:23, 24 & 25>>>


 " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". Ephesians 2:10

 We should be  happy serving the King of Kings and enjoy the blessings that others are not entitled to. This is why we are commanded to be  doers of the Word and not just hearers. Hearers are never blessed and will never experience the intimacy we have with Him while working for Him.
 
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."James 1:25
 
andreas.
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

dsouzaanthony

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2005, 02:25:29 AM »
Joe,

As clearly explained by people in this forum, here is a scripture which explains our work of faith:

2Th 1:11   Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

It's very clear that it is God's work and it is by His power.  That's why all His elect will receive equal reward that is the reward of Christ.  Apostle Paul labored more that other Apostles but he attributes all his labor to the grace (the power) of God working in Him. He had nothing to boast and knew that he would receive the same reward as any elect of God (that is the reward of Christ).

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

DSOUZAANTHONY

Jessie

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Re: Do Christians Receive Rewards for Works - 1st Corinthians 3:15
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2005, 02:42:41 AM »
Quote
I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean that we don't have faith, or that we don't work, or that we don't receive rewards for our works.

Joe, have you considered these verses in your conclusions that we receive rewards for our work?

Luke 17:7  But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

Luke 17:8  And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

Luke 17:9   Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Jessie

 


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