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Author Topic: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders  (Read 558 times)

Apostolic

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Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:42:08 AM »
I just want to register my objection to this idea that those who believe the twenty four elders are angels are not interpreting scripture correctly. I just finished reading Warren's discreditable article he posted about the twenty four elders and I just want to say that I am flabbergasted by his unfounded interpretations and conclusions. He takes everything and just mixes it together in this great mishmash stew o come up with these improbable and bad ideas.

He does not prove that the twenty four elders are not angels, he simply declares that they are not. I guess we're just supposed to take his word for it. That's no way to approach scripture. It seems clear that they are angels because they are not human beings on earth but spirit beings in heaven. By any definition that's an angel. Warren seeks to confuse the people by saying things that he cannot prove and things that don't make sense. The church is on earth, not on thrones around God in heaven. Many great scholars hold that the twenty four elders are angels so I just hope that all of you would consider every view and not just listen to one voice. Thank you.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 12:42:20 PM »
Quote from: Apostolic
I just want to register my objection to this idea that those who believe the twenty four elders are angels are not interpreting scripture correctly.

It is too bad that you disagreed with Tony Warren's study on 24 elders

You need to offer Scripture refutation to Tony's study, because we are not interested in your personal opinions without Scripture support. 

Now, perhaps you need to start with the word, "elders", yourself.  Do you know what is God’s definition for elders in Scripture?  Please show us the Scripture where you claimed that God considered your version of angels as elders. Then we will go from there. 


 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Kira

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 01:50:42 PM »
Thanks Erik, I hadn't seen that one.
K I R A 

Erik Diamond

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2020, 01:55:41 PM »
Welcome, Kira!
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Apostolic

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2020, 02:12:35 PM »
Now, perhaps you need to start with the word, "elders", yourself.

Elders mean the old ones, angels have been around since the beginning of time. So how about you start with that.



Melanie

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2020, 03:17:51 PM »
Tony used scripture to back up his beliefs, where are your scriptures apostolic? Or don't you think you need any? Elder means old for a reason, they aren't called that just to demonstrate they are aged, but that they are appointed leaders who are wise. The eldeers and priests were the leaders of the church, and they weren't angels.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2020, 04:09:40 PM »
Quote from: Apostolic
Elders mean the old ones, angels have been around since the beginning of time. So how about you start with that.

So you believe that the 24 elders are anicent feathered angels?  How about if you start using the Scripture and show it to us. Not assumption. Get go to Scripture:

Revelation 5:8-10 KJV
[8]  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9]  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10]  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 24 elders sing that Christ was slain and had redeemed "them by His Blood" out from every kindred, tongue, people and nation and have made them kings and priests of God's Kingdom.  Does this sounds like your version of angels, Apostolic?!  Did Christ gave your angels the white raiment or robes which signifies the righteousness of Christ to wash them clean from their sins in His world on the Cross, no?  How about the crown of Gold? Since when Christ gave your version of angels the crown of Gold?  Show us this in Scripture where your angels received white robes and gold crowns.  And when did your version of "old ones" being angels have sinned against Christ in order to receive white robes? 

Please back your position up with Scripture to justify your position on 24 elders being angels.

 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Apostolic

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2020, 05:00:44 PM »
Speakling of the scriptures, did any of you know that the number 24 is the number of books in the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible? Didn't the angels bring the revelation?

Erik Diamond

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2020, 05:11:15 PM »
Quote from: Apostolic
Speakling of the scriptures, did any of you know that the number 24 is the number of books in the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible? Didn't the angels bring the revelation?

Purely speculation!  Obviously you are avoiding answer my questions from my previous post.  You did not even offer a single verse to support your nonsense.  Your position remain refuted.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Apostolic

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2020, 06:08:42 PM »
You did not even offer a single verse to support your nonsense.

(Matthew 4:6) If you are the Son of God, let yourself go down; for it is in the Writings, He will give his angels care over you; and, In their hands they will keep you up, so that your foot may not be crushed against a stone.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2020, 06:12:05 PM »
Quote from: Apostolic
(Matthew 4:6) If you are the Son of God, let yourself go down; for it is in the Writings, He will give his angels care over you; and, In their hands they will keep you up, so that your foot may not be crushed against a stone.

This verse you quoted has nothing to do 24 elders or Revelation 5. 

Try again.

So, you believe that the 24 elders are anicent feathered angels?  How about if you start using the Scripture and show it to us. Not assumption. Get go to Scripture:

Revelation 5:8-10 KJV
[8]  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9]  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10]  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 24 elders sing that Christ was slain and had redeemed "them by His Blood" out from every kindred, tongue, people and nation and have made them kings and priests of God's Kingdom.  Does this sounds like your version of angels, Apostolic?!  Did Christ gave your angels the white raiment or robes which signifies the righteousness of Christ to wash them clean from their sins in His world on the Cross, no?  How about the crown of Gold? Since when Christ gave your version of angels the crown of Gold?  Show us this in Scripture where your angels received white robes and gold crowns.  And when did your version of "old ones" being angels have sinned against Christ in order to receive white robes?

Please back your position up with Scripture to justify your position on 24 elders being angels.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Mark

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2020, 07:10:40 PM »
Speakling of the scriptures, did any of you know that the number 24 is the number of books in the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible? Didn't the angels bring the revelation?
Pretty sure angels didn’t author the Old Testament maybe you meant to say God the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

James Heckman

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 01:36:32 PM »
Well, I don't want to be contrary to you guys, but fair is fair. There are many very good and biblical scholars who hold to the view that the 24 elders are in fact angels. And they do so based on scripture just as you do. In fact over at the Puritan Board forum there was a discussion not long ago that these were not just general angels, but they were a very special class of ruling angels. I thought that they biblically separated the angels into two classes. The first class is of general angels, and this type only stand before the throne of God not sit.

Re 7:11
"And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God."

The second class of angels are superior special angels and these are seen as seated. These are what they believe are the 24 angels on thrones. This is also the view of good theologians like Grant Osborne and Dr. Donald Arthur Carson, Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Divinity School. He is also the co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. So we shouldn't make it seem as if there are no biblical arguments for this view. I don't agree with their view, but there is a good argument for it.


Mark

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2020, 07:27:57 PM »
Not sure if I agree with you on a good biblical argument just because it says all the angels stood around the throne. As you know that word is a transliteration of the Greek word ‘aggelos’ which means messenger, it is not a translation. As has been witnessed here already the context confirms who these elders are.

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Drew

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Re: Who Are The Twenty Four Elders
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2020, 10:39:01 PM »

Guess you're friends with Tony Huh?

 


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