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Author Topic: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God  (Read 933 times)

Mark

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2019, 10:08:17 PM »

The spiritual mark is indeed MUCH MORE DEADLY because Satan is a master deceiver who deceive many people to believe that the mark of the beast won't take place in their church and that they will not realize that they actually has it...or their church is burning.

Isaiah 42:24,25
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.
25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

Its not about physical markings of the beast but spiritual, the church today is burning and the people inside don’t bat an eyelid, that’s the nature of deception. Those inside see nothing but peace and love to everyone etc, all roads lead to God but in reality she knows not that she is wretched, miserable, blind, poor and naked.

For the harlot church glorified herself and lived deliciously, she says in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. (Rev18:7,8)

Come out of her my people says our God.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Philly Dawg

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2019, 02:56:42 AM »
But you can't already have a mark and then God says they are given the same mark when they begin to worship the beast. In the language of Revelation the mark is "symbolizing" they betray Christ and His church, turn away from God and serve the family of Satan. Yes, they were always unsaved and never regenerated, but they also were in some sense sanctified (1st Corinthians 7:14; Hebrews 10:29) by being members of God's household among His Holy Spirit, even though they were unsaved. They were members in the same way as the Scribes and Pharisees were seated in the congregation of Christ and were peripheral believers (Luke 8:13) appointed to rule there, and then fell as the congregation was removed out of its place, "and yet" they were never true believers. Their falling was a sign that marked their end as part of the congregation of God.

Matthew 23:2
  • "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
  • All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

They were not true believers and yet were seated in the congregation, but like the church, they were deceived, even as a part of God's external covenanted church.

That understanding of the mark is the only one that makes sense. Tony, is it analogous to God saying he his unfaithfuil people he would blot the unsaved's name from the book of life?

Psalms 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Rev. 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The same fall, correct? By erasing their names they are effectively marked as Satan's servants. They didn't lose their salvation with this judgment by God, they never had it. That makes sense to me.



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Melanie

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2019, 06:51:34 AM »
That understanding of the mark is the only one that makes sense. Tony, is it analogous to God saying he his unfaithfuil people he would blot the unsaved's name from the book of life?

Psalms 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Rev. 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The same fall, correct? By erasing their names they are effectively marked as Satan's servants. They didn't lose their salvation with this judgment by God, they never had it. That makes sense to me.

Correct. See this article about the corporate church Tony wrote 12 years ago.

How Are Names Blotted Out of the Book of Life

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/The_Book_Of_Life.shtml

Drew

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2019, 08:06:14 AM »
 )idonotagree(  ...or maybe you can lose your salvation, and the Reformed idea of predestination is not true? Maybe there is no easy believism?

Erik Diamond

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2019, 11:14:54 AM »
Quote from: Melaine
How Are Names Blotted Out of the Book of Life

Thank you for sharing Tony Warren's article. It does help!

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2019, 11:24:49 AM »
Quote from: (drew)
...or maybe you can lose your salvation, and the Reformed idea of predestination is not true? Maybe there is no easy believism?

Drew...I think you should start doing some serious Bible study and think twice before you write with a "maybe", or "what if", etc., because your posts without authoritative Word of God, are becoming more irrational everytime we quoted Scripture. It is because the heart of the professing Christians will not receive the love of truth.


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Mark

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2019, 05:38:47 PM »
)idonotagree(  ...or maybe you can lose your salvation, and the Reformed idea of predestination is not true? Maybe there is no easy believism?

Or maybe God means what he says Drew.

Hebrews 12:2 (KJV)
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Drew

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2019, 04:56:56 PM »

Correct. See this article about the corporate church Tony wrote 12 years ago.

How Are Names Blotted Out of the Book of Life

http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/The_Book_Of_Life.shtml

That's so ridiculous. Stick to the literal position that the book means the book and those blotted out were there, but no longer are. You are so set on that OSAS idea that you neglect what's real. The Beast is real, the mark is real, the book is real.




Drew

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2019, 04:58:10 PM »

Or maybe God means what he says Drew.

He does. Beast, Mark, Book, ask, given, lose, the whole world, all.

Drew

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2019, 04:59:44 PM »

No, it has been refuted many times here.  The mark is not physical

Just because you say it's not doesn't mean we should all follow you blindly. Show me where Scripture says it is not literal?

Mark

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2019, 06:00:53 PM »

Or maybe God means what he says Drew.

He does. Beast, Mark, Book, ask, given, lose, the whole world, all.

Drew, you completely ignored the scripture where God says he is the author or starter and finisher of our faith which means he sees it through to the end. Eternal life is eternal. The church catchphrase of “if the literal makes sense, seek no other sense” causes spiritual blindness to his holy scriptures.

Rev13:1,2
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Do you believe the beast is physical like a leopard, feet as a bear and mouth as a lion with seven heads, rising out of the Atlantic or Pacific?

“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Drew

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2020, 11:46:44 AM »

Or maybe God means what he says Drew.

He does. Beast, Mark, Book, ask, given, lose, the whole world, all.

Drew, you completely ignored the scripture where God says he is the author or starter and finisher of our faith which means he sees it through to the end. Eternal life is eternal. The church catchphrase of “if the literal makes sense, seek no other sense” causes spiritual blindness to his holy scriptures.

That's nonsense. Besides, you're getting way off topic here. Stick to the literal position that the book means the book and those blotted out were there, but are no longer there. That makes sense, doesn't it? You are so set on that OSAS idea that you neglect what's real. The Beast is real, and has symbolic points, the mark is real, and the book is real.


Quote
Do you believe the beast is physical like a leopard, feet as a bear and mouth as a lion with seven heads, rising out of the Atlantic or Pacific?

As in the quote from Dr. Walvoord states, “when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.” That wouldn't make sense. Therefore we see the beast is real, but its parts are symbolic. But you want to take something that makes sense and make it spiritual. That's where you go wrong.



Erik Diamond

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2020, 06:03:54 PM »
Drew,

You have been told several times here that all interpreation belongs to God.


Genesis 40:8 KJV
[8]  And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
It is not in Dr. Woolvard, Tony Warren, me, or you to know the interpretation of God's vision. God always give us the ansers right IN HIS WORD, by us comparing Scripture with Sripture to find it!  People like you do not undersatnd this because you contiune to privately interpret almost every passasge of Eschatology by Historians, or by symbolics they "think" it means without Scripture confirm this. Let see what you said.

Quote from: Drew
As in the quote from Dr. Walvoord states, “when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.” That wouldn't make sense.

This hermeneutic or system has already been proved bankrupty and faulty as their logic is here before. We need ot find out what God really had in view, we have to search other verses which sheld "light" on the spirituality of what was prophesied. This is how we must always understand Scripture.  By letting the Bible be its own interpreter of what is literal and what is spirtual, and not as flawed systems and methodologies of men. 

Quote
Therefore we see the beast is real, but its parts are symbolic
.

Okay, let test your claim with Revelation 13 beast.


Revelation 13:1-2 KJV
[1]  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
[2]  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Answer these questions if you can. Take your time:

1.) You think the sea is real, but what is its symbolic ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?

2.) You think the seven heads and ten horns are real, but what is their symbolic ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?

3.) You think the body of leopard, feet of bear and mouth of lion are real but what is their symbolic ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?
4.) Now, do you think the dragon is real but you knew that the dragon is Satan symbolically? Why, because GOd gave us his interpretation in Bible. Didn't you read in Scripture? 


Revelation 20:2 KJV
[2]  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

See, God has revealed who dragon is, in His WORD! 

Likewise, you need to find God's interpreation for the sea, heads, horns, leopard, bear lion are symbolically of? The answer is in the Bible that you need to compare Scripture with Scirpture.  Not Jerusalem Post. Not the book of Dave Hunt. Not the book of Dr. Woolvard.  I know that you do not have answer because you do not check with Scripture for answers.  That is why you are deceived by man's wild interpreations that the sea somehow must Atlantic Or Miderattion Sea where you believe antichrist must rise in Europe.  Or the ten heads and horns represents a literal ten nations of Europe or ten leaders.  Or these animals represent the royalities of Europe, etc. etc.  None of these are actual God's interpreation in the Bible! People like you make it up and claim it "symbolically" thinking we can assume God's interpreations based on the news. Big mistakes!

Now, I want to ask you to explain what are the locusts of Revelation 9 symbolically are? Are they real yet symbolically as what?  A massive militarty helicopters with chemical weapons? No? How about Cornovirus? Tell me, what is God's interpreation for it in Scripture?

How about the burning mountain of Revelation 8:8?  You believe the great mountain burning with fire falling from space is real but you think it is symbolically of what? A comet? An andorid? No, how about International Space Station (ISS) crashes into sea?  What did God say what mountain symbolically of in His Scripture?  What does the fire symbolically in Scirpture? Can you at least try to open the Bible and find the answer yourself, instead of believe everything what dispensational premillennisal false prophets like Dr. Woolvard, Dave Hunt, Jack Van Impe, Tommy Ice, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, etc.     

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: The Mark of the Beast in the House of God
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2020, 11:56:21 AM »
>>>
The church catchphrase of “if the literal makes sense, seek no other sense” causes spiritual blindness to his holy scriptures.

That's nonsense.
<<<

It's not nonsense. If the literal sense makes sense "but" the context, in harmony with the symbolism of other scriptures, and the imagery compared with all other instances of such visuals, imagery, or similes in scripture, and illustrates something should "not" be taken literally, we would be foolish to institute our own private rules of interpretation. For example, the literal sense of Elijah coming before the Lord makes sense according to your hermeneutic rule. However, that prophecy was not to be taken as the very literal Elijah, but as John the Baptist who was to come in the spirit and power of Elijah. So then, this little catchphrase is found wanting and seen to be invalid as a sound hermeneutic or system of Biblical interpretation.

Malachi 4:5
  • "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"

This literal sense made perfect sense, however when considered in the light of the context, and in harmony with the consistent testimony and methodology of the "whole" Bible, we see that the literal sense was not what was in view. We see what was really in view was that spiritually John the Baptist came in the power of Elijah, and this was what the original prophecy always intended. Indeed, Christ made it clear that this was the fulfillment of "that" prophecy, all man-made rules of interpretation notwithstanding.

Luke 1:17
  • "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 11:13-14
  • "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
  • And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."
Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Thus that rule is not validated by God's word.


Quote
>>>
Besides, you're getting way off topic here. Stick to the literal position that the book means the book and those blotted out were there, but are no longer there.
<<<

The book is a symbolic ledger of the church. That is to say, all those who claim to be the covenanted children of God. Those blotted out are those who claimed such birthright but were never truly born of God. Thus they did not belong written with the living and thus in judgment taken/blotted out. Look at it from this perspective. It is just as Israel were God's externally covenanted people, but many were cut off from that covenant (as branches of that tree) because they were judged of God as not truly being His children. It wasn't that those of Israel were once saved and then they lost their salvation because of their sin, but rather it was that they were never saved and so as judgment, they lost their place as a "representation" of the house of God. As messengers or stars cast down from heaven, they were the representation of His congregation who had their kingdom taken from them. The messenger or stars of the new Testament external congregation of God is given that exact same warning (Revelation 2:5) if they didn't repent. And Christ told the Old Testament church clearly, even before they fell, they were "not" truly the children of God, but of the devil. "That" is why they could be blotted out.

John 8:43-44
  • "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
  • Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

They were in the symbolic book because they were the "external" covenanted people, but they were never really born as children of God and never truly saved. Thus they could be cut off. In like manner, those whose names are blotted out of the book never really belonged there. Not in rthe New Testament nor the old.

Psalms 69:28
  • "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

Let them be blotted out and not written with the righteous because they aren't righteous and aren't saved. Christ never made them righteous, they came with their own righteousness.


Quote
>>>
That makes sense, doesn't it?
<<<

Only if one irrationally believes that Christ paid for ALL their sins and yet they are still unsaved and will have to pay for their sins themselves because Christ didn't "actually pay" for all their sins. In other words, one has to have an inconsistent hermeneutic in order to believe that someone for whom Christ died and paid for all their sins, had to ultimately pay for sins themselves. No, it doesn't make sense.

1st John 3:9
  • "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

How then does he that is born of God not only have sin in your scenario, but sin worthy of the death that Christ already paid for? Was Christ's payment insufficient or lacking in some way? Were we not sealed or secured with the Holy Spirit? Again, no it doesn't make sense when compared with the authoritative word of God.


Quote
>>>
You are so set on that OSAS idea that you neglect what's real.
<<<

Once Saved Always Saved, eternal salvation, the perseverance of the saints, or whatever one chooses to call being secured or sealed of God, is real. But not as some churches use the OSAS acronym in the infamous manner of a license to sin. We don't neglect what's real, we bear witness to what's real. And the "fact" that someone who has been regenerated or saved cannot then be unregenerated or lost so that they lose their salvation is God's Biblical assurance. If a member of the church apostatizes or falls away, it is because they were never regenerated in the first place.

2nd Peter 1:8-10
  • "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
  • Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Make sure that you are truly saved. If the Holy Spirit of truth be in you, you are secured unto the day of redemption and cannot fall.

Ephesians 4:30
  • "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The Holy Spirit Seals/secures you until the day of Redemption. How then can you fall/fail. Once saved, you are always saved. Christ has "already" paid for your sins, "thus" you cannot have any sin left to account for. That's what's real.


Quote
>>>
The Beast is real, and has symbolic points, the mark is real, and the book is real.
<<<

Symbolic points? A real beast with symbolic heads and horns? And who is the arbiter of what parts are real and what is symbolic on the beast? You? Your Minister? Personal preference? I submit that it is God that determines if the beast and all its appendages are literal. How does a real beast have a unreal woman riding upon it? Or is the woman literal? How would that be if this woman is also sitting on 7 mountains? How then is the beast literal if the woman that rides him is not? If the very literal beast has no real head or horns, how are the heads kings? And how would a real/literal beast reign in power with 10 kings near the end? You see this is this type of confusion that brings shame and delusion to the unfaithful church.

Ecclesiastes 7:25
  • "I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:"

The Besat is symbolic, the mark is symbolic, and the book is symbolic. God doesn't need a literal ledger to know who are His people, who are not, and who is fallen or apostatized in said church, this book is spiritual imagery designed for man so that he have some semblance of understanding of the promise, justice, and judgment--not God.


Quote
>>>
Do you believe the beast is physical like a leopard, feet as a bear and mouth as a lion with seven heads, rising out of the Atlantic or Pacific?

As in the quote from Dr. Walvoord states, “when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.”
<<<

Not that quotes from men are the arbiter of truth, but everyone wants to use that catchphrase as the golden rule of interpretation--which it isn't. Moreover, they usually quote only part of the actual quote by the man Cooper. The full quote is actually a little more detailed.
  • When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at it’s primary, ordinary, usual meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise -Dr. David L. Cooper”
Unless the facts of the context, studied in the light of related passages as well as axiomatic or unquestionable fundamental truths clearly indicate otherwise. Taken at face value, I might even agree with this, if not in principle. Because I believe that the symbolism, imagery and figures in Scripture, when compared with the facts of the immediate context of the passages in view, and studied in light of all related passages, as well as the axiomatic and fundamental truths of Scripture, "clearly" illustrate to us that these things are to be taken spiritually or symbolically. In fact, I caution Christians "not" to place random spiritual meanings to any passage unless that fundamental criterion is met.
 

Quote
>>>
That wouldn't make sense. Therefore we see the beast is real, but its parts are symbolic.
<<<

That's like saying that my car is real, but it's four wheels are symbolic. That's an unsound hermeneutic that is paradoxical, inconsistent, and disjointed. Something that Christ spoke concerning confusion comes to mind here:

Matthew 12:33
  • "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

By the same token, either make the beast real and its heads real, or else make the beast symbolic and its heads symbolic. Because just as in God's economy you can't have both good and bad fruit from a good tree, you can't have a symbolic head from a literal beast.


Quote
>>>
But you want to take something that makes sense and make it spiritual.

No, we want to take something that is spiritual and illustrate how it makes perfect sense. To the children of this world spiritual things make no sense. But to God's children who worship Him in Spirit and truth, they make perfect sense. i.e., we will pick up serpents and not be hurt because the serpent is "representative" of the spirit Satan. It makes sense because we are born of the Spirit of truth so that we are not adversarial to it.

1st Corinthians 2:12-14
  • "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
  • Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
  • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The Spirit of truth teaches God's children to know the things that are freely given them of God. And for that we are eternally grateful.
 
 
Quote
>>>
That's where you go wrong.
<<<

The Lord judge--and I'm comfortable with that because I know that (unlike man) the Lord judges righteously.

Psalms 37:30-31
  • "The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
  • The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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