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Author Topic: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10  (Read 963 times)

Joe Johnson

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2019, 02:44:37 AM »
The word particularly. So instead of God being the Saviour of all men without exception, Hes the Saviour of them particularly which believe.

That's the same erroneous handling of scripture that T. Warren taught. Your explanation is no more valid than his was. It's talking about him being savior of all, but only believers will act on his being savior.


Quote
That fits the overall context of scripture, Jesus is the Saviour of Believers. His Sheep who shall believe.


Nope!

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2019, 07:55:58 AM »
The word particularly. So instead of God being the Saviour of all men without exception, Hes the Saviour of them particularly which believe.

That's the same erroneous handling of scripture that T. Warren taught. Your explanation is no more valid than his was. It's talking about him being savior of all, but only believers will act on his being savior.


Quote
That fits the overall context of scripture, Jesus is the Saviour of Believers. His Sheep who shall believe.


Nope!

You have a right to reject the word of God. I saw where Tony and I agree on the verse and he did a good job in going into detail, which makes people more accountable, because to proclaim God a Saviour to lost people is dishonoring to God and His Salvation through Christ.

Melanie

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2019, 09:44:08 AM »
 )iagree(

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2019, 11:30:05 AM »
joe

Quote
It's talking about him being savior of all, but only believers will act on his being savior.

Of curse you dont realize how absurd this sounds since all men by nature are imprisoned in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Men by nature are held captive in unbelief by the decree and power of God, and we must be saved from it in order to believe, and thats what a Saviour does, He saves from unbelief.

Paul is an example how he did his worse crimes against Christ and His people while in unbelief but Christ saved him from it 1 Tim 1:13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

See Christ came to save unbelieving sinners from unbelief, In the process He gives them Faith and then they believe by grace Acts 18:27

Joe Johnson

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2019, 03:34:46 AM »
That's the same erroneous handling of scripture that T. Warren taught. Your explanation is no more valid than his was. It's talking about him being savior of all, but only believers will act on his being savior.
to proclaim God a Saviour to lost people is dishonoring to God and His Salvation through Christ.

That makes no sense. If he is not the Savior of lost people, then the people need no savior because they're not lost.

Luke 15:32
"It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."

I don't know about you, but I was lost and the savior found me.

bloodstone

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2019, 08:45:53 AM »
You're right, God is the savior of lost people. But not of all lost people. Only those predestinated unto salvation.

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2019, 09:58:21 AM »
That's the same erroneous handling of scripture that T. Warren taught. Your explanation is no more valid than his was. It's talking about him being savior of all, but only believers will act on his being savior.
to proclaim God a Saviour to lost people is dishonoring to God and His Salvation through Christ.

That makes no sense. If he is not the Savior of lost people, then the people need no savior because they're not lost.

Luke 15:32
"It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."

I don't know about you, but I was lost and the savior found me.
Obviously you arent understanding what you read notice "and was lost, and is found."


Hes of course the Saviour of " was lost people and is found" they cant be considered lost anymore now can they ?

But what about the Lost people that go into perdition, eternally lost like those Jesus will say Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So yes He is the Saviour of the Lost that He found and saved, thats common sense !

Philly Dawg

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2019, 08:37:51 AM »
You're right, God is the savior of lost people. But not of all lost people. Only those predestinated unto salvation.

 )Bible-Red( Correct! He doesn't save formerly lost people, he saves lost people, who then become found/saved as they were predetermined to be. 
  Kellyanne Conway: Sometimes Trump Lies Because
 He Doesn't Know the Truth, Okay?

Terry

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Re: The Saviour of all Men, Specially of those That Believe - 1 Tmothy 4:10
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2019, 09:27:05 AM »
Very unlikely Warren. You just made that up to support Predestination. That's not a viable solution. Free will is the only solution.



Dr. Alan E. Kurschner Ph. D. comes to the exact same conclusion that the "all" has the qualification of "those who believe." So you are wrong in your statement. I agree with these writers that the context shows it must be talking about all that believe, and so does Dr. Kurchner since you have such a high opinion of learned scholars. As Tony said, it's all without distinction, not all without exception. Here's an article you might want to check out.


 

    September 30, 2009 / by Alan E. Kurschner Ph. D.   

An Exegesis of 1 Timothy 4:10 “…who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”

    “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” (1 Tim 4:10).

In 1 Timothy 4, Paul is exhorting Timothy that sound doctrine and persistent godliness should be the thrust of our life because of the hope of the living God — in this age and the one to come. We should be confident in our creeds and ethics because of the certainty of salvation. Paul introduces verse 10 with the inferential indicator eis touto gar (For to this end), followed by the grounding conjunction hoti (because), which highlights his main point: “we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” His main point is corroborated by his use of the perfect tense ēlpikamen (we have our hope set), which marks out this action. Interestingly, the only other instance of a perfect tense in this immediate section is found in verse 6:

“If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed (parēkolouthēkas)” (1 Tim 4:5—6).

This is an uncommon term in the New Testament, only used four times (Mark 16:17; Luke 1:3; 1 Tim 4:6; 2 Tim 3:10). In the context of following a belief or practice, this term means “paying special attention, follow faithfully.” In other words, for Paul, following sound doctrine is not about a static affirmation of creedal statements on paper — it is an active, conscious, engaged conforming. (Paul would not have anything to do with an ambiguous Church “Statement of Faith”!)

Back to verse 10. In the next statement, and our focus of this article, what is meant by, “who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”?

Many modern believers read this with the assumption that Christ came to earth with the intention to die for every single individual who has ever lived; hence, “who is the Savior of all people.” But only those who believe will have his atonement applied to their sin; hence, “especially of those who believe.” Therefore, many modern readers, particularly Arminians, believe this verse undercuts any notion of particular redemption and election, which is affirmed in Reformed theology.

However, we should probe more than a prima facie reading of this verse and ask ourselves certain questions. Is there a theological connection between “the living God” and its qualifier “who is the Savior of all people”? What does “all people” mean here for Paul? Does it mean all people without exception or distinction? And most importantly, how can God be the Savior of those who do not believe? Or is there some other element that has escaped our notice?

A universalist reading should be ruled out since that would contradict Paul’s unambiguous teaching in his corpus that many will indeed perish eternally.

Next, the Arminian interpretation reads too much into the statement, “Savior of all people,” with two assumptions: (1) that the term “Savior” here must mean “possible Savior” and (2) it denotes “every single person.”

But if Christ died for all sins, then there is no legal basis for him to punish or condemn any sinner to perdition; thereby making the Arminian an inconsistent universalist. What basis is there to punish the same sin twice: on the cross and on the sinner. There is none.

In addition, the context here does not state what Paul means by “all people.” He could refer to every single person, or he could refer to all kinds of people. Earlier in this same epistle, in the similar context of salvation and all people, Paul makes it clear that he is referring to “all sorts of people,” not every single person who has ever lived on planet earth. (See my exegesis on 1 Timothy 2:4 here).

Some interpreters have suggested that God is “Savior of all people” in a physical-preserving sense — if you will, a “common grace Savior.” And then he is a spiritual Savior, especially of those who believe.

This is an unlikely interpretation since there is nothing in this context where Paul defines “Savior” in these two different ways. Further, v. 8b provides a soteriological context, “the present life and also for the life to come.” And in v. 10, the natural reading is that Paul uses the same meaning for “Savior” for humanity in general, and believers in particular.

The most plausible interpretation of this verse is what I call the Monotheistic-Exclusivism Interpretation. What Paul is saying is that God (and by extension Christ as Redeemer) is the only true Savior in the world, therefore humanity cannot find any other competing Savior outside of the living God. They have no other Savior to turn to.

It is not by mistake that the phrase “living God,” a term that suggests monotheism, is connected with this verse. This phrase is often found in the context of polytheism (e.g. Acts 14:15; 1 Thess 1:9; Josh 3:10; 1 Sam 17:26, 36; 2 Kgs 19:4). Since there is only one God who is alive, there is only one Savior for humanity to embrace.

Also, earlier in this same epistle Paul makes a similar exclusive statement that there is one medium of salvation for humanity: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” (1 Tim 2:5). Here Paul connects this with the truth of “one God” with only one mediator, anticipating what he says two chapters later.

In addition, this is similar to Jesus’ exclusive statement:

“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6).

And in the same vein, Peter proclaims:

“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12).

For all humanity, there is only one way, truth, life, Father, name, mediator, and Savior — especially of those who believe.

Finally, I want to conclude with another interpretation that is compelling. The term for “especially” is malista. George W. Knight III argues that this term here should be rendered, “that is,” thereby functioning as an explanation or further clarification of the preceding statement. The translation would be as follows: “who is the Savior of all people, that is, of those who believe.” So this interpretation does not view “those who believe” as a subset of “all people”; instead, “those who believe” identifies who the “all people” are. He writes:

    The phrase [malista pistōn, “especially of believers”] contains the one qualification that Paul and NT always posit for receiving God’s salvation, i.e., “trust” in God as the only Savior. Absolute [pistōn], as used here and elsewhere in the NT, refers to those who believe in Christ, i.e., Christian believers…[malista] has usually been rendered “especially” and regarded as in some way distinguishing that which follows it from that which goes before it. Skeat (“Especially the Parchments”) argues persuasively that [malista] in some cases (2 Tim. 4:13; Tit. 1:10, 11; and here) should be understood as providing a further definition or identification of that which precedes it and thus renders it by such words as “that is.” He cites several examples from papyrus letters that would seem to require this sense and that would in their particular cases rule out the otherwise legitimate alternative sense. If his proposal is correct here, which seems most likely, then the phrase [malista pistōn] should be rendered “that is, believers.” This understanding is also in line with Paul’s assertion that all sorts and conditions of people are in Christ (even at times using [pantes] ) and with his insistence in those contexts that all such are in Christ and have salvation by faith (cf., e.g., Gal. 3:26—28). NIGTC, The Pastoral Epistles, 203—4.


 


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