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Author Topic: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened  (Read 18500 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2008, 11:34:43 PM »
Tony and Friends,

After I have been reading several posts here regarding Matthew 24:29-31, I decided to bring it back up to discuss further on this. Tony, I realize that you are very busy man (or getting tired of me, just kidding) and I would like to hear your feedback on this. I also appreciate any thought from anyone else on this too.  Let start with Tony's old message:

Quote from: Tony Warren
There will be those caught up in the heavens with Him IMMEDIATELY after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29).

Matthew 24:29-31

    * ""Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    * And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
      shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
      coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    * And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
      shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven
      to the other."

The rapture and judgment is immediately after the great tribulation period. At the Last Trumpet. Not next to the Last, the last (which means this trumpet of Matthew must be the last, because the rapture trumpet which says it is "The last Trumpet" cannot occur before this trumpet. Think about it. ..it's an impossibility for the last trumpet (1st Cor. 15:52) of the rapture (which you claim is before this Great Tribulation) to occur before the Matthew 24 trumpet. ..else it is not the last trumpet!

Two things:

The timing of "immediately after the tribulation of those days". 

Will it occur on the very day Christ Jesus appears in the sky, or it is when the Abomination of Desolation be set up and the Elects started to flee from the church to the mountains.  The reason why I suggested the latter is because they are no longer persecuted in the church.

Sun, Moon, Stars and the Powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Will the Sun, Moon and Stars literally darkened and fell the day Christ literally come? Or are these just symbolically the fall of the church when Christ came to judge the church but not yet appears in the sky?  I asked because I read...

Rev 6:12-17
  • And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
  • And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
  • And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
  • And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;[/li]
    [li]And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
  • For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is my belief that the sixth seal is not the Last Day. It started on 1,290th day when God started to judge the church and Elects fleeing to the mountain. The kings of the earth, great men, rich men, chief captains, etc. are all symbolically Elects. They flee to mountains for protection or shelter (stronghold)  now that they know that Christ (Lamb) has come to judge church.  Like the ten virgins parable, the Wise Virgins realizes that Bridegroom is coming but not yet arrives. THis is how I see things here.  The Elects realizes that the wrath of the Lamb has indeed come as a Thief to judge the church but not yet appears in the sky. That is how I understand it.

Now the question for Tony Warren and anyone who like to particapte, is do you now believe that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" only occur on the day Christ appears in the sky, or when the great tribulation for the Saints expired as they flee from the city?

I tend to believe that the signs in the sun moon and stars has to be fulfilled figuratively. I do think the signs in the sun, moon, and stars have to occur FIRST before actual appearing of the Son of Man.  For example in two books:

Mat 24:29-30

  • Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Luk 21:25-28

  • And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
  • Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
  • And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
  • And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

It appears to me that the signs in the sun, moon, and stars will occur first...figuratively, for they are signs for the judgment of the church, that only the Elects can discern and understand. But professed Christians (as well as the world) cannot notice it or pay attention to the condition of the church.  AND THEN Christ will appear in the sign with power and glory. I honestly do not see why we should see sun, moon, and stars to fail literally the day Christ return because all eyes shall laid on HIM! His return will be too sudden for us to notice anything odd in space, don't you think so?  Luke 21:28 is a warning to Elects that when the signs in sun, moon, and stars, begin to happen, you will realize that Jesus has already coming to judge the church, and will soon appear visibly in the sky. 

Thanks for reading and your feedback in advance.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2009, 03:04:13 AM »
Tony Warren,

I will bring my thread from Novermber 2008 since no one response to it.  Maybe you have missed it?  I will try again and hope if you can tell if you agree with me or not:   

Mat 24:29-30

  • Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Does the verse 29 is really talking about what most people calls "cosmic disturbances" on the day Christ returns?  Per your comment on my original post, you believe that the rapture and judgment is immediately after the great tribulation period.  You believe this based on Matthew 24:21-22 about great tribulation cutting short for the sake of the Elects, correct?  I might understand but I am not so sure because I might see an alternative that after the great tribulation FOR THE ELECTS, as they came out of church, they could see sun, moon, stars, and powers of the heavens be shaken to signify that Christ has come to judge church Babylon for one hour per Revelation 18:10.   Then in verse 30 saying, "and then" shall the sign of son of man in heaven. This is the day of second coming.  Do you agree with my understanding?  Another point I made found in Revelation 6:

Rev 6:12-17

  • And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
  • And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
  • And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
  • And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
  • And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
  • For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I personally believe this might be talking about a period where Elects have fled to mountain and "witness' the wrath of the Lamb, bringing judgment upon the great city.  It is not Second Coming yet.  It is when Christ come as a thief to judge church.  That is what sun, moon, earthquakes, stars, shaking signifies of.  Shouldn't it also applies to what  Matthew 24:29 referred to, rather than literal cosmic disturbances associated with Second Coming on the Last Day?

What do you think?

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2009, 09:53:19 AM »
>>>
Sun, Moon, and Stars - Signs of Christ's Return
<<<

Yes, the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars ARE the Signs of Christ's Return. When you see the falling, the famines, the great shaking, the abomination of Desolation, etc. When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws nigh. And I'm not talking about looking up for literal falling stars from the sky.


Quote
>>>
Does the verse 29 is really talking about what most people calls "cosmic disturbances" on the day Christ returns? 
<<<

Well, that's the majority view, but no, I don't think so. The whole chapter is speaking spiritually, allegorically, about very literal things. Wars, earthquakes, the Holy Temple, The flight on the Sabbath, Judaea, Mountains and on and on. So to me, if the Sun isn't going to literally turn dark, or in other places to blood, then clearly the language of the Bible concerning these things is symbolical. Likewise, if the stars aren't going to literally fall to earth (which is nonsense, because there would be no earth left), then clearly the language is symbolical. I think the Bible was written by God in a very practical way that we would be able to "logically" understand it. That's what I've found in searching scripture over the years. He wrote it that way to His Glory. But I just don't think most people get it. But that's just me. I tend to look at the Bible in the way I believe God wrote it, and therefore wants us to understand it. By comparing scripture (God's word) with scripture, allowing it to define and interpret itself.

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

I take this very seriously. There is no gospel import to stars falling to earth, the import is to messengers of the Church falling. They are "figuratively" the stars, the lessor lights. The Sun becoming dark is a symbolic reference to the Church, the light of the world. God declared the Church is the light of the world, which OBVIOUSLY He took from the image of the Sun. Whether stars or sun, it is symbolic.

Revelation 12:1
  • "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

Is there a woman in heaven that has the sun for a dress? Or, is God instructing us in spiritual matters of the Church through this prophecy? Just as in this Revelation 12 God says Satan's tail drew the 3rd part of stars of heaven. Is Satan playing with literal stars in heaven? Does Satan even have a literal tail and 10 literal horns, or is this all symbolical? That is the pertinent question. Because as I reiterate time and time again, the Bible is its own interpreter. Stars falling are symbolic of those of the Church, not cosmic impossibilities.

Revelation 1:20
  • "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars ARE the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

The Bible is its own interpreter, thus we have biblical warrant to look at symbolic references to stars, as the messengers of the Churches. ....and we know how they fall. They fall just as Israel fell.

Romans 11:11
  • "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

Likewise the Church can, and does fall.

Hebrews 6:4-6
  • "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
  • And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
  • If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

If the messengers of the Church fall, they are the stars falling. Just as Joseph dreamed the dream of the sons/children of Israel as 12 stars. There is nothing new here. God has always used this type symbolism. The problem is not in what is (or is not) written, but in man's aversion to receiving it.


Quote
>>>
 you believe that the rapture and judgment is immediately after the great tribulation period.  You believe this based on Matthew 24:21-22 about great tribulation cutting short for the sake of the Elects, correct?
<<<

My understanding is that tribulation in the world will last for the believer "Till He Comes," but not in the Church. The fall of the Church is "after" the tribulation because the true Witnesses are killed in the Church. Therefore, there is no more great tribulation for them there. i.e., their work is finished, they can't do anything there, they have no power there, Satan rules there, they must then come out lest they suffer in her fall. That Great Tribulation for them "there" is over.


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2009, 12:44:46 PM »
Quote from: Tony Warren
Yes, the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars ARE the Signs of Christ's Return. When you see the falling, the famnines, the great shakings, the abomination of Desolation, etc. When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And I'm not taling abourt looking up for literal falling stars from the sky.

Amen.  I agree.

Quote
The Sun becoming dark is a reference to the Church. God declared the Church is the light of the world, which OBVIOUSLY He took from the image of the Sun. Whether stars or sun, it is symbolic.

Revelation 12:1

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

Is there a woman in heaven that has the sun for a dress? Or, is God instructing us in spiritual matters of the Church prophesy?

I did not realize the sun can be symbolic of the Church. I thought the sun represents Son of God or Word or God while the moon which does not produce its own light but reflect the light of the sun which was why I thought moon represented the church with stars its messengers. Now that you mentioned about church in Revelation 12:1 that she does have sun, moon, and stars.  It makes more sense now.

Quote
My understanding is that tribulation in the world will last for the believer "Till He Comes," but not in the Church. The fall of the Church is "after" the tribulation because the true Witnesses are killed in the Church. Therefore, there is no more great tribulation for them there. i.e., their work is finished, they can't do anything there, they have no power there, Satan rules there, they must then come out. That Great Tribulation for them there is over.

Amen. This is one of few things that I need to work on with my listeners.  When I mentioned the word, "Great Tribulation", I have noticed that some listeners thought I was talking about the whole period, from timing of Satan's loosened to Second Coming. I tried to explain to listeners that I was talking about great tribulation for the Elects IN THE CHURCH for 3-1/2 days -- the period of the death of Two Witnesses.  The "tribulation of those days" is great tribulation for the Elects in the church. Therefore, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" is not Second Coming itself, but the SIGNS of His coming that we can discern in the sun, moon, and stars (church falling).   Many objected to this idea because perhaps, they got too used to the ideas that the signs in the sun, moon, and stars will literally reacts to Second Coming on the last day. Guess it will take more explanation for me to make with my listeners.  That is why I wanted to clarify with you to see if I am on right track. Thanks for your response! I think I am going to create a chart that might helps them understand visually of what I am trying to say.

Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Mitchell

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2009, 05:24:42 PM »
>>>
Sun, Moon, and Stars - Signs of Christ's Return
<<<

Yes, the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars ARE the Signs of Christ's Return. When you see the falling, the famnines, the great shakings, the abomination of Desolation, etc. When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And I'm not taling abourt looking up for literal falling stars from the sky.


 Hmmmmmmmm!


Betty

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2009, 05:06:26 PM »
>>>
Sun, Moon, and Stars - Signs of Christ's Return
<<<

Yes, the signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars ARE the Signs of Christ's Return. When you see the falling, the famnines, the great shakings, the abomination of Desolation, etc. When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And I'm not taling abourt looking up for literal falling stars from the sky.


 Hmmmmmmmm!




 Double Hmmmmmm! So the church has gotten it wrong, and it's not literal? I don't think so.

   http://bible.cc/mark/13-25.htm

 Me thinks the strs will be falling. Bible says so.



Erik Diamond

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2009, 09:44:25 PM »
Quote
Me thinks the strs will be falling. Bible says so.

Show us the Scripture (chapters and verses) that prove your point. Otherwise don't say, "Bible says so" as if you know what you talk about!

2Ti 2:15

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Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Melanie

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2010, 01:14:39 PM »
Quote
Me thinks the strs will be falling. Bible says so.

Show us the Scripture (chapters and verses) that prove your point. Otherwise don't say, "Bible says so" as if you know what you talk about!



Amen. I also agree that the sun, moon and stars darkening speaks of the fall of the Church, and nor celestial bodies. Based on what I read in scripture, this language is allegorical, and refers to the fall of the kingdom which has spiritually become Egypt. we see this by comparing what God said about Egypt in Ezekiel, when He said he would bring Babylon against her. It fits, doesn't it?

 Ezekiel 32:7-11
"7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.
 10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.
 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee."

From this I get that as God judged Egypt using this symbolic language about the sun, moon and stars and her light made dark, this is what Matthew 24 refers to. A kingdom symbolically becoming dark, judged of God.



Herman Stowe

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2010, 06:55:40 PM »
Melanie,
  You are relentlass. I do see your point. The sun, moon and stars are the host of heaven, and could definitely symbolize the visible Kingdom of heaven on earth. In other words, the Church. have you considered also Joel chapter 2 of God's judgment?

 Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 This also seems to be a symbolic darkening of the sun, moon and stars.


Mark

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2020, 06:22:12 PM »
Melanie,
  You are relentlass. I do see your point. The sun, moon and stars are the host of heaven, and could definitely symbolize the visible Kingdom of heaven on earth. In other words, the Church. have you considered also Joel chapter 2 of God's judgment?

 Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 This also seems to be a symbolic darkening of the sun, moon and stars.

Amen Herman, which would follow because symbols used in God’s word are consistent.  The prophecy in Joel 2 was fulfilled (per Acts 2)as old covenant Israel was left desolate and the same type language with the new covenant Israel in its fall/desolation as per Matthew 24,Luke 21.

Old covenant Israel
Joel 2:28-31
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Fulfilled
Acts 2:16-20
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come

New covenant Israel
Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

ZeroCool

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Re: What is the Sun, Moon and Stars Darkened
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2020, 08:37:50 PM »
 )Goodpoint(

 


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