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Author Topic: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?  (Read 2229 times)

Emily

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2019, 01:54:01 AM »


Red,

Annihilation or Eternal Punishment?  by Robert Peterson

  https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/

Emily

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2019, 01:57:13 AM »

Red,

 Here is another good overall answer to some of your questions regarding the literalness of hell and annihilation.

An Eternal Hell is for Real - The Heresy of Annihilationism? By Reformed Answers From A Biblical Perspective

http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/46711

Christopher Henson

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2019, 07:03:35 AM »

Betty

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2019, 03:33:11 AM »
Because there were two “http://“ on the link. Here’s the corrected link

http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/is_hell.html
Thank you for the correction. I have read it a few years back, so I need to refresh my memory and will do so again.

Don't bother. It's legalistic lawyer-speak. Red, Your understanding is my understanding also. It's the only understanding that is not unmerciful, cruel and heartless. It is a compassionate view. This group is all hell and damnation, fire and brimstone. No one needs to be punished continually. By the way, they also don't believe in miracles even though the bible says there will be miracles.

Red

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2020, 05:42:15 AM »
Mark, I will answer your post per your request.  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2207.msg45746;topicseen#msg45746 Reply #111 on: June 11, 2020, 06:37:47 PM

I have a few infallible proofs from God's word proving that there is no such thing a hellfire NOW where the wicked go at death, and punishment after this life, never to end. I will give my first proof.

Let me add this before starting~I once believe in a literal hellfire at the present where the wicked goes at death, and then (strange to say this because of the impossibility of it) taken out of it to be to judged and then cast back INTO IT THE SAME! It was Tony's article on Luke 16 that I read a few years back that truly got me thinking of the error of believing in such a place. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/lazarus.html

Proof #1......"The Scriptures declare what Christ came to do, namely, to deliver us from our enemies~Luke 1:74...and to taste death for every man~Hebrews 2:9.... (Jews and Gentiles). The last enemy is death~1st Corinthians 15:26; and according to Paul's gospel, death has been legally abolished~2nd Timothy 1:10.... He promised deliverance from death and the grave~Hosea 13:14...Jesus said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
Paul said:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:55~"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The scriptures said: "I will will ransom thee from the power of the grave"....not one word is ever said....I will ransom from the torments of hell, nor from a punishment never to end! If there be a punishment after death and the grave never to end, there is no mention of it in the scriptures of Christ's delivering us from it, if so, where? The word of God said, that he is able to save us from death~Hebrews 5:7....this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient,  and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave; and if it were, deliverance from these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for IF there be a punishment after death, who shall deliver us from THAT?

Christ delivered from death and the grave, and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned~we conclude no such deliverance was necessary, nor is there thing of the kind to be delivered from. People who teach an endless punishment of the wicked makes void Christ's suffering, and the comfort of SAINTS~FOR IF a punishment never to end BE DUE to man for sin~Christ must forever suffer THAT PUNISHMENT to free us from it, or we must suffer it~that conclusion is inescapable. All faithful men in the past have always taught that the way and means by which Christ frees us from the punishment of sin, is by his suffering THAT PUNISHMENT of sin which we were to suffer! Is this so, or not? To this agrees with the scriptures:
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 53:4-7~"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."
Again:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:13~"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
So if Christ our surety has not suffered the said torments forever, then has he not suffered enough: namely, that which we were to suffered; so has not delivered us from that punishment.

Later, I may consider Proof  #2.
"And he shewed me a pure river of water, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."~Revelation 22:1

In the world to come~there WILL BE "pure pleasures"~river/tree=all that is needed to sustain us Forever! Joy, peace, contentment in its fullest, etc.

Reformer

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2020, 07:07:40 AM »
It was Tony's article on Luke 16 that I read a few years back that truly got me thinking of the error of believing in such a place. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/lazarus.html

First, do not dare attempt to Use Tony's anti-annihilation posts to demonstrate something it was never intended to. You didn't get annihilationism from any article that Tony Warren wrote, all his posts are clearly opposed to your teachings. You may have read into his articles something you believe, but you didn't get the ideas from Him. That's like me taking parts of Trump's ontradictions to prove to someone that he doesn't lie. That's just wrong!


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Proof #1......"The Scriptures declare what Christ came to do, namely, to deliver us from our enemies~Luke 1:74...and to taste death for every man~Hebrews 2:9.... (Jews and Gentiles). The last enemy is death~1st Corinthians 15:26; and according to Paul's gospel, death has been legally abolished~2nd Timothy 1:10.


And here you are again throwing a bunch of scriptures up against the wall to see if any sticks. It is very clear that Christ didn't abolish death for everyone, death is our enemy, he abolished it for us. Not for the wicked. Death cannot be abolished for the wicked because Christ clearly said that it was the wages of man's sin. That would logically mean sin has no wages if all are annihilated. That would mean all are free to sin in this life because your just going where everyone else does who is unsaved.  That's not the truth of the Bible. None of your attempts at manipulation of scriptures work because they are just not true.


Quote
The scriptures said: "I will will ransom thee from the power of the grave"....not one word is ever said....I will ransom from the torments of hell, nor from a punishment never to end!

I don't know what Bible you are reading from but mine says,

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In your religion, I guess eternal punishment simply means temporary punishment. But that would also mean that eternal life there also simply meant temporary life wouldn't it? I mean if you're going to be consistent and not believe whatever you want. At every turn, the word of God proves you wrong, so I don't need to.


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If there be a punishment after death and the grave never to end, there is no mention of it in the scriptures of Christ's delivering us from it,

Why is there a need for eternal hell fire if it's not eternal.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Does everlasting fire equate to temporary fire in your doctrines? Are you changing the definition of words? Because if you are, why would you ever expect to have everlasting life? Start thinking like a Christian and not like the world. Because that is carnal.


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The word of God said, that he is able to save us from death~Hebrews 5:7....this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient,  and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave; and if it were, deliverance from these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for IF there be a punishment after death, who shall deliver us from THAT?

When you die, and you stand before God, and the books are opened to have people judged according to their works, you can ask God about that.

Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

So in your doctrine after men die, God raises them up and beats them according to their works, and then what? He gives them death again? What is wrong with this picture?


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Christ delivered from death and the grave, and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned

So here you are as usual preoccupied with the elect who have been delivered from death. I thought we were examining the unsaved, not the elect. They haven't been delivered from anything. So you're just muddying the waters, not explaining the rationale behind your unbiblical doctrine of annihilationism.  Stick to the subject. The destination of the elect is just a distraction from what you are proposing.


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People who teach an endless punishment of the wicked makes void Christ's suffering[/color][/u][/b], and the comfort of SAINTS

Once again, what has the comfort of the saints have to do with the punishment of the wicked? You've said so much but actually said nothing to prove annihilationism. Which I thought was the point. All you've given us is your worldly feelings, your earthly convictions, your carnal sensibilities. Not one Scripture that proves there is no eternal punishment for the wicked.

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~FOR IF a punishment never to end BE DUE to man for sin~Christ must forever suffer THAT PUNISHMENT to free us from it, or we must suffer it

Correct, and he did. He is the beginning and the end, that is why Christ our Savior had to be God. Because as God, He could take the punishment of an eternity in an instant. What you seem to have forgotten, He is God after all.  Because that's the horrible nature of sin and the wrath that fell upon Him. He suffered a wrath or judgment from God that only He could complete. And he did. Thank God it is finished!


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So if Christ our surety has not suffered the said torments forever, then has he not suffered enough: namely, that which we were to suffered; so has not delivered us from that punishment.

Christ suffered as a mn but he also never gave up being God eternal, and you seem to be attempting to make him simply a man that cannot suffer an eternity of punishment for sin for us in an instant. Not true. You think God could have an eternity of wrath for sin poured upon Him in three days and come out the other side free from it all? Then you don't know what a God is. That'sd why There is only one. That's why His suffering was so terrible. Many men were crucified, and many died valiantly, but that's not what the cross was all about.

But you just don't get it.


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Later, I may consider Proof

I doubt that, unless it is your own. But I'm sure you've made all the worst sinners in history very happy in knowing they can sin to their heart's content because all they have to look forward to is the same thing every other person does. Death in annihilation.


ZeroCool

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2020, 08:45:59 AM »
Don't want to seem like I'm piling on but  )Goodpoint(

Chicago Bear

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2020, 11:27:58 AM »
Well that makes a lot more sense than everyone just dies. I don't see that anywhere in scripture.  God is a God of vengeance and wrath along with mercy and compassion. It seems Red thinks God is evil if he sends anyone to eternal damnation.

Mark 3:29
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

When does eternal damnation not mean eternal damnation?
Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Mark

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2020, 06:45:46 PM »
Mark, I will answer your post per your request.  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2207.msg45746;topicseen#msg45746 Reply #111 on: June 11, 2020, 06:37:47 PM

I have a few infallible proofs from God's word proving that there is no such thing a hellfire NOW where the wicked go at death, and punishment after this life, never to end. I will give my first proof.

Let me add this before starting~I once believe in a literal hellfire at the present where the wicked goes at death, and then (strange to say this because of the impossibility of it) taken out of it to be to judged and then cast back INTO IT THE SAME! It was Tony's article on Luke 16 that I read a few years back that truly got me thinking of the error of believing in such a place. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/lazarus.html

Red thank you for sticking to your word regarding getting back to responding to your doctrine on why hell is annihilation however I believe you have mistaken Tony’s article on the parable of Lazarus because I believe he was exposing the traditional error of unsaved people in hell now in torment and then to be judged later and thrown in the lake of fire which the article quotes from scripture showing where the unsaved are now, namely:

Psalm 115:17,18
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD

Verse 17 explains the fate of the unsaved before the throne judgement and 18 is the condition of the elect, it’s a comparative statement. Red you have to see death as what it really is and it’s not annihilation but separation. When our first parents sinned against God back in the garden they died that moment, they lost that communion and image with God they didn’t physically die (separate soul/spirit from there body) till over 900 years later.

Gen 2:16,17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That surely die in the Hebrew is more literally dying you shall die. As to your “Proof#1” Reformer has well responded and rebutted biblically your defence. As Chicago Bear said eternal damnation means eternal, we can’t turn to the left or right or wrest God’s word if we don’t like what it says. Please reconsider.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Red

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2020, 06:36:10 AM »
Red thank you for sticking to your word regarding getting back to responding to your doctrine on why hell is annihilation however I believe you have mistaken Tony’s article on the parable of Lazarus because I believe he was exposing the traditional error of unsaved people in hell now in torment and then to be judged later and thrown in the lake of fire which the article quotes from scripture showing where the unsaved are now, namely:
Greetings Mark~what I said was Tony's article GOT ME THINKING to reconsider my understanding of AT LEAST Luke 16~I meant NO MORE than that. If that was not plain, then I apologize. I will consider your post later more in-depth.
"And he shewed me a pure river of water, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."~Revelation 22:1

In the world to come~there WILL BE "pure pleasures"~river/tree=all that is needed to sustain us Forever! Joy, peace, contentment in its fullest, etc.

Red

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2020, 01:29:35 PM »
First, do not dare attempt to Use Tony's anti-annihilation posts to demonstrate something it was never intended to. You didn't get annihilationism from any article that Tony Warren wrote, all his posts are clearly opposed to your teachings. You may have read into his articles something you believe, but you didn't get the ideas from Him.
I answered Mark concerning this earlier. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=3476.msg45771;topicseen#msg45771 I was taught many years ago and received it being young in the faith back in the early seventies~even though I had some questions about a few things, like All of God children there's a learning process every one of them go through whereby we grown in grace and knowledge of the truth, and will, until we leave this world, as I said before we all live in a body of SIN and death and will never be free of error until we receive our glorified bodies and then will be brought to pass that which is written:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 13:9-12~"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
I still stand upon what I said that it was Tony's articles that got me on the path of understanding about what happens to the wicked when they die~it's NOT immediately judgment in hellfire~and yes, we differ from what happens after the final judgment at the last day. I firmly believe AT THIS POINT (unless some brother or sister can produce evidence from the scriptures otherwise)  that the lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH of all of the wicked, it is eternal/everlasting destruction of the wicked with NO possibility of a REVERSAL. The place of the lake of fire is clear to me, it will be when THIS WORLD is destroyed by fire with fervent heat wherein  ALL SHALL PERISH and passed away. 

Sir, what does John 3:16 mean to you~or better yet, what do Jesus' words mean to you?
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:16~"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Perishing is used by the Lord in CONTRAST with everlasting life, which the wicked DO NOT POSSESS in any form whatsoever! There are other scriptures that the word perish is used.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:07:40 AM
And here you are again throwing a bunch of scriptures up against the wall to see if any sticks.
Really, you are trying to convince others that that is so, but I can assure you that it not.  The scriptures I used were legitimate points to consider, to any sincere seeker of the truth to consider, or to any sincere defender of the truth to rebut if he thought they were used out of context~which to my surprise you used two scriptures in your long-winded post, and truly never elaborating on them in any meaning helpful manner. I truly wonder how many others took notice of this, if they did not, they should have for sure.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:07:40 AM
It is very clear that Christ didn't abolish death for everyone, death is our enemy, he abolished it for us. Not for the wicked.
I fully agree.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:07:40 AM
Death cannot be abolished for the wicked because Christ clearly said that it was the wages of man's sin.
First death AND the second death if payment was not made for that person! The lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH~all who do not have a part in the FIRST resurrection shall perish in the lake of fire WHICH IS the second death.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:07:40 AM
That would mean all are free to sin in this life because your just going where everyone else does who is unsaved.  That's not the truth of the Bible. None of your attempts at manipulation of scriptures work because they are just not true.
Who truly desires to live eternally, world without end, will come out of this world and set their affections on high knowing that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of our God
Quote
Hebrews 12:29~“For our God is a consuming fire.”
Quote from: Reformer Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:07:40 AM
I don't know what Bible you are reading from but mine says,

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In your religion, I guess eternal punishment simply means temporary punishment. But that would also mean that eternal life there also simply meant temporary life wouldn't it? I mean if you're going to be consistent and not believe whatever you want. At every turn, the word of God proves you wrong, so I don't need to.
The only sense that I can put on those words is this: Everlasting punishment is that there is NO REVERSAL of that punishment.
Quote
At every turn, the word of God proves you wrong
Sir, the word of God just may do that, and IF it does, then I will repent and teach whatever is the truth, but at the moment you certainly have not, maybe you can but I have my doubts.
Quote

Why is there a need for eternal hell fire if it's not eternal.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Does everlasting fire equate to temporary fire in your doctrines? Are you changing the definition of words? Because if you are, why would you ever expect to have everlasting life? Start thinking like a Christian and not like the world. Because that is carnal.
Again there is NO reversal of this fire ONCE it takes place.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:07:40 AM
Start thinking like a Christian and not like the world. Because that is carnal.
The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are NOT still burning are they? no, they are not! Yet their place and remembrance are gone forever and ALL they live in there PERISH. So, I say the same BACK TO YOU. I'm NOT questing you NOT being a child of God, but you should think like one as you CORRECTLY said I should.

I'm going to close with this, which NO ONE as of yet has attempted to answer:
Quote from: Red  Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 05:42:15 AM
The scriptures said: "I will ransom thee from the power of the grave"....not one word is ever said....I will ransom from the torments of hell, nor from a punishment never to end! If there be a punishment after death and the grave never to end, there is no mention of it in the scriptures of Christ's delivering us from it, if so, where? The word of God said, that he is able to save us from death~Hebrews 5:7....this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient,  and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave; and if it were, deliverance from these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for IF there be a punishment after death, who shall deliver us from THAT?

Christ delivered from death and the grave, and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned~we conclude no such deliverance was necessary, nor is there thing of the kind to be delivered from. People who teach an endless punishment of the wicked makes void Christ's suffering, and the comfort of SAINTS~FOR IF a punishment never to end BE DUE to man for sin~Christ must forever suffer THAT PUNISHMENT to free us from it, or we must suffer it~that conclusion is inescapable. All faithful men in the past have always taught that the way and means by which Christ frees us from the punishment of sin, is by his suffering THAT PUNISHMENT of sin which we were to suffer! Is this so, or not? To this agrees with the scriptures:
Reformer, show yourself to be a noble Chrisitan by addressing what I said, I would love to hear your understanding, or Erik's for he too skip over it very conveniently.   
"And he shewed me a pure river of water, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."~Revelation 22:1

In the world to come~there WILL BE "pure pleasures"~river/tree=all that is needed to sustain us Forever! Joy, peace, contentment in its fullest, etc.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2020, 07:15:26 PM »
Quote
Reformer, show yourself to be a noble Chrisitan by addressing what I said, I would love to hear your understanding, or Erik's for he too skip over it very conveniently.   

Humm... since when I got involved with this thread? My position with Reformer and Mark on this subject pretty much the same, so you deal with him.  You do not need to involve me here since you have their testimony.  :-)

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Red

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2020, 04:14:14 AM »
Humm... since when I got involved with this thread?
By starting this thread.
Quote from: Erik Diamond on: Yesterday at 07:15:26 PM
My position with Reformer and Mark on this subject pretty much the same, so you deal with him
Pretty much? They may be good men, I would never question that, but they too live in this body of sin and are subject to error as we all are, thereby, we should have that noble spirit of the Berean Christians, who tested every word that faithful Paul preached, and they should and MUCH MORE in our day we should try the spirits by the word of God, as you WELL know and has been said many times over on this very forum, and rightly so. I would not follow Reformer for he seems very unsure of what he believes concerning this subject. He said:
Quote from: Reformer Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 03:14:45 AM
While I believe the language of lake of fire in Revelation is allegorical or spiritual, I'm not sure that precludes that those under God's judgment are not vexed by a physical fire in a place that is characterized as a lake. Revelation is symbolic, so I lean towards the lake and fire representing the character of this torment. I believe the wicked's punishment is like being in a lake of fire, not necessarily that it is.
That was almost a year ago, maybe he has learned something since then on this subject under consideration.

While I agree Revelation was written in highly symbolic language, yet the word of God will interpret itself as you have been taught many times over and also have come to understand. John the Baptist will help us greatly in understanding the meaning of LAKE of fire.
Quote from: JOHN THE BAPTIST understood the meaning LAKE of fire
Matthew 3:7-12~"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (FOR WATER BAPTISM~RED) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
This baptism WITH FIRE is NOT what the deceived Pentecostals believe, and it is not something someone should desire for it is a BAPTISM into the LAKE OF FIRE when God shall burn up the worthless chaff in that day when THIS world shall melt with fervent heat and pass away! Matthew 3 perfectly interprets Revelation's LAKE of fire where the wicked shall die the SECOND and final death.

As a side note: We KNOW that the baptism WITH fire is NOT something to be desired for John spoke to the Pharisees who DID NOT bring forth fruits worthy of water baptism, and his words to them were words of WARNINGS and condemnation, that shall come upon ALL of those who have NO fruits of righteousness in their life worthy of even being baptized in water, so, there IS another baptism waiting for them in that day in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is perfectly described for us in 2nd Peter 3.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:9-12~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Selah! 

"And he shewed me a pure river of water, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."~Revelation 22:1

In the world to come~there WILL BE "pure pleasures"~river/tree=all that is needed to sustain us Forever! Joy, peace, contentment in its fullest, etc.

Trevor

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2020, 04:56:20 AM »
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    I don't know what Bible you are reading from but mine says,

    Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    In your religion, I guess eternal punishment simply means temporary punishment. But that would also mean that eternal life there also simply meant temporary life wouldn't it? I mean if you're going to be consistent and not believe whatever you want. At every turn, the word of God proves you wrong, so I don't need to.
The only sense that I can put on those words is this: Everlasting punishment is that there is NO REVERSAL of that punishment.

Perhaps you shouldn't place your sense on these words, but rather allow God's word itself to demonstrate the sense. This is otherwise known as "letting Scripture interpret Scripture." Reformer makes some very good points, not the least of which is God's word declaring that some will be punished more than others in the day of judgment preclude the doctrine of annihilation. Unless you are implying that there are different levels of obliteration in the second death? Moreover, allowing scripture to interpret itself, do you ever see the word translated "punishment" [kolasis] to ever mean obliteration or annihilation. The two places it's located both imply torment.

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal."

1st John 4:18
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

Fear doesn't have annihilation, it torments you. It causes you anguish. That's the only two places that word is used and both demonstrate being tormented. Torment is not annihilation, it's more an affliction or to be chastised. It's from the word Greek word "kolazo" meaning to chasten, and which itself is used only twice:

Acts 4:21
"So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done."
2nd Peter 2:9
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

That word punish has nothing to do with annihilation unless we want to redirect it that way. The translators could have very easily translated that word as annihilation but all the experts all without fail understood the word to mean the exact same thing we do. As chastisement or Punishment. Eternal punishment doesn't mean "no eternal punishment, just annihilation." The unsaved "HOPE" for annihilation because they understand it's not a punishment as Christians teach, it's relief that there is no punishment.
A Mind For Truth
Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
New York, NY

Reformer

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Re: Is the Lake of Fire a literal place?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2020, 12:43:49 PM »
I'm going to close with this, which NO ONE as of yet has attempted to answer:

The scriptures said: "I will ransom thee from the power of the grave"....not one word is ever said....I will ransom from the torments of hell, nor from a punishment never to end!

The question is not if we are delivered from the power of the grave (we both believe that), the question is what is the power of the grave. Is it annihilation and no punishment, or is it every man getting judged according to his works and separated from God? Is it that we shall simply be no more (as nearly all unsaved believe), or is it torment and punishment as every man is rewarded by God according to his works in this earth. Some will be punished more and some punished less. Based on all of the scripture I believe it is quite obvious that the power of the grave is the power over unsaved man in bondage to Satan, which in the end results in every man getting his just deserts. One beaten with few stripes and another with many, as the scripture says.

Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Clearly we can't have greater and lesser condemnation if we all are simply annihilated or cease to exist. You do understand that, right? I trust I've answered your question, if not simply elaborate. Questions don't scare me, if I don't have the answer I'll just say so. By God's grace, I think I have the humility to do that.


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If there be a punishment after death and the grave never to end, there is no mention of it in the scriptures of Christ's delivering us from it, if so, where?

Why should there be? God has already told us we're delivered from judgment, and already told us that judgment is everlasting punishment and eternal torment. Why do you feel the need to have God say it again as if He wasn't really clear the judgment is punishment and torment. You used Tony Warren's article about the parable of the torment of Lazarus, but in your zeal to prove Annihilationism, you actually missed the whole point of His article and of the parable. The point is that there is a punishment and that punishment is torment and not Annihilation. As Tony explained, Christ is making the point that once you are in the torment of Hell, there is no going back. Lazarus said as much Himself, which is why He wanted to warn his brothers. But God says they have the Scriptures, and if they won't hear them, they're not going to hear no matter what. So the parable doesn't teach there is no Hell eternal, on the contrary, the parable teaches there will be a hell and it isn't Annihilation but torment in the flame, and so before that time you had better make your calling and election sure. That's what Tony Warren gave testimony to there. So while you keep saying there is no mention of eternal torment in the scriptures, funny that nearly all of the church from the beginning until now saw and sees it, while you declare it absent from Scripture. Are we all blind and simply seeing things? Quoting scripture that isn't there? Or is it more likely you're not taking these scriptures at their word of eternal punishment and everlasting torment because of the flesh or man's sensibilities?


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The word of God said, that he is able to save us from death~Hebrews 5:7

We do not deny scripture. Not ever. The question is which death, and if the second death is the lake of fire, then what is its nature? A lake is stagnant, it's not a river that rushes everything out to sea.  You theorize and teach that the lake of fire must be Annihilation.  We search the scriptures and testify that what it is was illustrated in the parable of Lazarus, and declared plainly in Matthew 25:46 that it is a lake of everlasting fire that shall not be quenched, a state of everlasting punishment and contrastyed with the elect going the opposite way to a state of everlasting life. You do realize that this was to be a contrast in Matthew 25?

I trust I have answered your question on that scripture.

And speaking of answering scriptures, you have not explained how God will judge some more severely than others (for example Christian teachers), and yet you imply that the judgment is simply annihilation. How is that possible. I will wait patiently for your answer.


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Reformer, show yourself to be a noble Chrisitan by addressing what I said, I would love to hear your understanding, or Erik's for he too skip over it very conveniently. 

I did my best with what you had given me. Now I'll ask the same from you.

 


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