[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: The serious ramifications of teaching Christ died for all without exception  (Read 263 times)

savedbysovereigngrace99

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Its popular today in the world that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, and yet all without exception will not be saved. This leads to only one honest conclusion which I believe dishonors the Cross of Christ. Here's why, if Christs death was for every single person, and some wind up lost, then Christs death/cross alone in and of itself saved no one, and therefore didn't effect Salvation for those He died and rose again. It means that in final analysis that instead of Christs death/blood/cross making the difference of whose saved, its the sinner who makes the difference, and Salvation ultimately is conditioned on man. Man is the one to determine whether one is saved or lost, and not the blood of Christ alone. To me that is a serious ramification , one that gives man the credit for Salvation and not the Cross of Christ.

Melanie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
  • Gender: Female
  • 🌴"But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God. -Psalm 52:8"
 )iagree( And giving man the credit for his salvation and not in any way the grace of Christ's cross. Which means it is a works based gospel, which cannot save anyone.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6


You and I both know that this means that it is of vital importance that we understand God is making plain that there are but two possible sources of salvation. Man's own works, and God's grace.



savedbysovereigngrace99

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
)iagree( And giving man the credit for his salvation and not in any way the grace of Christ's cross. Which means it is a works based gospel, which cannot save anyone.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6


You and I both know that this means that it is of vital importance that we understand God is making plain that there are but two possible sources of salvation. Man's own works, and God's grace.

Amen to that.

Halle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
  • "Because He Lives"

Some further illumination on the serious ramifications of teaching that Christ died for all without exception

A Brief Defense of Limited Atonement
By William J. Baldwin

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/other_studies/defense_of_limited_atonement.shtml

George

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • I'm a llama!
To me that is a serious ramification , one that gives man the credit for Salvation and not the Cross of Christ.


Ok savedbysovereigngrace99, say I accept your thesis. Please answer this. Are we Slave or Servants?

Chloe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Obviously I'm a Novice

We are bond servants.

savedbysovereigngrace99

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
To me that is a serious ramification , one that gives man the credit for Salvation and not the Cross of Christ.


Ok savedbysovereigngrace99, say I accept your thesis. Please answer this. Are we Slave or Servants?

Hi George. Im sorry but how is that question relevant to the OP ? Did you understand it ?

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
>>>
Ok savedbysovereigngrace99, say I accept your thesis. Please answer this. Are we Slave or Servants?

I will assume that you're trying to contrast Christians being free servants over against Christ dying for only some men, this implying you believe that although Christ died for all, only some freely accept that payment. That's an old argument that has been addressed many times. As savedbysovereigngrace demonstrated, it doesn't matter if you accept or not, the "fact" that Christ died and paid for all your sins would necessarily mean that you have no sin. Or else Christ "never" died for your sins in the first place. It's contradictory and illogical to declare that Christ paid for all of someone's sins, and then declare that someone still has sin because he didn't do something. If he still has sin, then obviously all his sin were "never" paid for. Thus particular redemption or what is known as limited atonement is proved. ...as again, savedbysovereigngrace already illustrated.

John 10:15
  • "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Christ laid His life down for the sheep only, not for the goats. That's the essence of particular redemption. All men are not His sheep and so it would be unreasonable and unsound (based upon Scripture) to proclaim He paid died for all men without exception. No, He laid down His life for His Sheep only.

John 10:26
  • "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

The unbelievers are not His Sheep, therefore He did not lay His life down for them. He atoned for the sins of a limited group of people, His sheep. That's Limited Atonement. He laid down His life for "His People," that they alone, might be set free from bondage to sin.

Matthew 1:21
  • " And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Not save all people, but save His people from their sins. Of course, we know that many Arminians have attempted to claim that grace, apart from free will, makes us slaves or robots instead of servants. So according to that theory, if Christ died for and set all men free, then no man is a slave and we're free to come to Him. So I can see how you might try and make that charge. However, what you fail to understand is that we weren't free to begin with, nor were we trying to be free. But God who loved us while we were in bondage, dead in trespass and sin, of His own sovereign good pleasure and will set us free. Not because we desired it, deserved it or asked for it, but because it was His good pleasure to do so. There are only two types of people. We are either bondservants of Satan or bondservants of Christ. Not the 20th-century idea of a bondservant or slave, but the biblical definition through the idea of spiritual ownership. In the old days, a person could find himself a bondservant by hire, by judicial decree as punishment, by defeat in battle, to escape poverty or he could freely sell himself as a bondservant to pay off a debt. Being a servant of Satan is quite a bit different from being a servant of Christ. Yes, as Christians we are bought with a price and yes He is our Master. But the difference in servitude is literally as night and day. We owe everything to Christ. We are indebted and can never pay what we owed. But it doesn't matter because the debt was paid by Christ where He has indeed set us free. We serve in joy freely because we appreciate that we were bought from bondage with a price, and we praise God in knowing that Christ loosed us by dying for "our" sins. Not for everyone's sins, just for those whom He loved. There is not one single Christian that has been bought with a price that wishes to be loosed from His servitude to Christ. No, not one. Another difference is that we know we are servants. By contrast, the unsaved are servants of Satan and are so deceived they aren't even aware of it. So the "fact" that Christ says we are free and that we joy in being servants throws your whole theory into a tailspin.

1st Thessalonians 1:9
  • "For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God."

From servitude to a false god to [douleuo] or be a slave or bondservant of the true God. If not for Christ purchasing us with His blood, and loosing us from the bondage of Satan, we would still be serving idolatry and under the wrath of God. Proving once again, Christ did not die for all men because all men have not been set free from that particular bondage and sin.

John 8:33-36
  • "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
  • Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
  • And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
  • If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

Jesus set me free by His death and resurrection, and clearly all men are not set free. Once again proving that Christ did not die for all men. As those select chosen and set free from servitude to Satan, we praise God that we might be accounted worthy by Christ to serve God. We joy that He moves us to do His will and turn away from the will of the Devil. We understand it is our duty to serve, for His yoke is easy and His burden is light. What bondservant of God do you know that is dissatisfied, unhappy or unthankful that by the Spirit they have an earnest desire to serve Him? Not one. Again making your whole point about slaves moot. In truth, we wouldn't have it any other way.

Luke 17:10
  • "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

We don't pound our chests and say "we" came to Christ when others didn't, we don't seek credit or glory for being righteous in our free will to have come, as bondservants of Christ we are humbled and give glory to God. What I don't think you fully understand is that those who hold to free will desire credit for doing something that "other" less righteous men have not done. Namely, freely coming to Christ of their own will. They neglect that their will as unsaved men is decidedly Not free. Otherwise, Christ wouldn't have come to set them free. As Spirit led servants of God we don't exalt ourselves imagining that we control our salvation by our own will or control our own fate, we know God is sovereign and we humble ourselves under His mighty hand of God (I Pet. 5:5-6). We are led to follow the admonition that the apostle Paul gave to physical bondservants. To obey their master with fear, trembling, and a sincere heart, as we would Christ (Colossians 3:22). What shall we say then, no I don't want to be a bondservant of Christ? We would only think that if we imagined that we are the kingmaker, the deciding factor of who we serve. Christ chose us as surely as He chose the 12 apostles. He didn't choose to pay for the sins of all men, else all would be chosen. They are not. All would then be Elect. They are not. We serve with Joy, not as eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the spirit, rendering servitude with a pure heart and good will, even as to the Lord and not to man" (Ephesians 6:5-7).

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Robert Powell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Gender: Male
  • "fruit of the righteous, a tree of Life" Pr 11:30

For Whom Did Christ Die?
July 15, 2016

https://faculty.wts.edu/posts/for-whom-did-christ-die/

by Dr. Jonathan Gibson, PhD, Cambridge
Professor of Old Testament at Westminster Theological Seminary (WTS).

George

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • I'm a llama!
Hi George. Im sorry but how is that question relevant to the OP ? Did you understand it ?

Because your thesis assumes that we have no free will because Christ did not die for us. We believe that he died for all but all will not accept him. So do you serve freely or are you forced as in predestination?

George

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • I'm a llama!
I will assume that you're trying to contrast Christians being free servants over against Christ dying for only some men, this implying you believe that although Christ died for all, only some freely accept that payment.

You assume correctly. John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'" That's true because you claim to believe every word. Therefore it's not true that he only died for some.

aquatic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
  • Gender: Male
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus didnít pray or intercede for every one, therefore He didnít die for every one.

David Knoles

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
  • I'm a llama!
You assume correctly. John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'" That's true because you claim to believe every word. Therefore it's not true that he only died for some.

Nice George. makes sense to me.  )word(

savedbysovereigngrace99

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Hi George. Im sorry but how is that question relevant to the OP ? Did you understand it ?

Because your thesis assumes that we have no free will because Christ did not die for us. We believe that he died for all but all will not accept him. So do you serve freely or are you forced as in predestination?


Then you must accept the ramifications which are serious to that. Which was stated in the OP:

 
Quote
if Christs death was for every single person, and some wind up lost, then Christs death/cross alone in and of itself saved no one, and therefore didn't effect Salvation for those He died and rose again. It means that in final analysis that instead of Christs death/blood/cross making the difference of whose saved, its the sinner who makes the difference, and Salvation ultimately is conditioned on man.

savedbysovereigngrace99

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
I will assume that you're trying to contrast Christians being free servants over against Christ dying for only some men, this implying you believe that although Christ died for all, only some freely accept that payment.

You assume correctly. John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'" That's true because you claim to believe every word. Therefore it's not true that he only died for some.

George the world there is Christs Sheep or Gods Elect. They constitute a World

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]