Did Jesus have victory over sin as a flesh and blood man, or as an immortal God

[Red]

And yet, before He died, He could not walk through closed doors without the power of God to move Him. He would not raise Lazarus from the dead, with first praying to God His Father and asking Him. As a man He didn't do His Will. "Father, if thou will, take this cup from Me".

Studyman, you keep building this strawman and then you are fighting against him, for no one has said that as a man Jesus did his own will, of course, he did not do his own will, neither did he cause his voice to be heard in the streets, in that he never lifted himself up, but came as a lowly servant, serving, not to be served by others. Can we lay this to bed once for all?

You said:

He could not walk through closed doors without the power of God to move Him.

You might want to reconsider that statement and show a little wisdom. Have you never read these scriptures:

Luke 4:28-30~"And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,  And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way",

Studyman, YOU PICK which Godhead attribute did Jesus use to leave them before they acted on their wrath and hatred~His omniscience of knowing all things even their secret thoughts and he left BEFORE hey did anything to him, or when they started to hurt him, he simply went through their mist WITHOUT them knowing that he had left. One or the other, neither which a mere man could do. There are others, but time would fail me to consider them~well, in the mouth of two witnesses shall every word be established.

John 8:58,59~"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

To PROVE that he was INDEED the I AM THAT I AM! Selah! Sir, you need to repent of that statement based upon the testimony of the word of God.

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

What is the "nature of Angels"? Are they not immortal? What separates angels from the Seed of Abraham? Is it not immortality?

Angels are spirits sent forth to minister unto the heirs of God's salvation to his elect. Hebrews chapter one. No Jesus did not take on their nature but came in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, something that the first Adam could not do, and neither could you or I, or any man other than the MAN Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

I have no problem with the God of Abraham becoming Flesh and dwelling among men. I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh, that He was also 100% God with 100% of the Power of God and that is how He overcame. I don't agree with this because the scriptures teach against it.

No one is saying:

I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh

that He was also 100% God with 100% of the Power of God

Then you DO have a problem with Jesus being 100% God~because he WAS~as I said many times above, Jesus was a complex person with TWO NATURES and these two natures were ever kept separate in him. This is the testimony of the word of God.

that is how He overcame. I don't agree with this because the scriptures teach against it.

He condemned sin IN THE FLESH of Jesus of Nazareth, and it was his flesh that was put to death and offered as a sacrifice for our sins. NOT sure WHO you are arguing with, a strawman that YOU Have created is all that I can see.

The deity of Christ is that He was God who became mortal, who risked His immortality to do the Will of His Father. And for His faith, Trust, obedience He was given, BY GOD THE FATHER, a name greater than any name. This is what the scriptures say.

The truth is: In the beginning GOD, purpose to reveal himself~chosen to do this by having a Son after his own image begotten by him by his infinite wisdom and power. This Son would share his own nature as God, yet also would be made in the likeness of flesh and blood. God ordained certain individuals to eternal life through the obedience and faith of his Son whom he KNEW would do his will perfectly from conception to death on the cross. There was no possibility of failure if we understand The book Ephesians the first three chapters as we should. There were NO RISH involved (Acts 2:23) since God worked all things out according to his own will. His will cannot be defeated or even hinder. To think otherwise is blasphemy.

Red, you are a nice man, and you are zealous for the Lord there is no doubt. And you have not resorted to insults, ridicule, or belittling and that means something to me. And I appreciate your candor and your zeal. 

I am what I am by the grace of God~what I do is I do labor to hear men patiently and show respect as long as they are hearing me as I am trying to hear them. What you have said about me could be said about Tony of being a worthy brother to listen to who is sober-minded and has given himself to defend the scriptures testimony according to the light God has been pleased to give him. But no man is without error and all should be tested with the word of God~we all spend our lives learning the truth and departing from errors a never-ending job.

But there is a problem in the doctrine that the Christ didn't really come in the Flesh. Not because I say so, but because so many scriptures say so.

Not sure what exactly you mean with this statement. Do you mean that Jesus was NOT the Christ, or that he was and people do not believe this?

This is another scripture I hadn't considered. You are preaching that Jesus was 100% God. Who is the Christ talking about here? When shall they SEE God?

That's hard to believe that you have never considered Matthew 5:8~if that's the case then you should be listening and not teaching the scriptures. I would never teach any doctrine that I could not defend especially when it comes to the Sonship of Jesus Christ. We shall see God in the person of Jesus Christ when he comes again, or at the death of our body if we are a child of God.

It is my Hope to "overcome" in this World with Faith in Jesus the Risen Christ, as He, the man, had Faith in God the Father. AS it is written.

In one true biblical sense we have ALREADY overcome in Jesus' faith and obedience, and even NOW we are seated TOGETHER with him in the heavenly places legally speaking. Legally when Christ arose, WE AROSE WITH HIM~ where he sits, we sit together WITH HIM, being members of his spiritual body! My hope of eternal life is IN CHRIST alone, his faith and his obedience, not mine~if it depend on my faithfulness, I would not receive anything from the Lord, but eternal damnation.

Will I see the long haired image of God created by religious man and plastered in nearly every town on the planet? Is this the Jesus that I seek? No Red, it is not. The Jesus I seek is the One who became a man, in all things as His brethren, and overcome sin by Faith in the Power of His Father, and because of this great victory, was granted a Name above all other men.

This SAME Jesus will be the ONLY God you and I will ever see, for God is a Spirit that inhabits eternity that not even angels have ever seen, EXCEPT in the person of Jesus Christ as he walked on this earth around two thousand years ago. When we shall see God it will be JESUS CHRIST who IS the true God and eternal life!

[Theo]

I have no problem with the God of Abraham becoming Flesh and dwelling among men. I do have a problem when religious men say He didn't come in the Flesh,

I say  also Frank,
     I think we've all had about enough of the unstudied-man's lies and so I implore the administrative moderator to step in and either remove him from the forum for constant false witness against participants, heresy, deceit or posting in biblical forums without addressing biblically any scriptures coherently.

  The forum rules state that Heresy or Proselytizing by cults or unbiblical unsupportable false teachings is not welcome here. It says if you post, be prepared to address what you post, or do not post it. These are 'discussion' forums, so it is improper to simply post scriptures for the sake of posting scripture. If you post them, be prepared to 'discuss' them. That's what the rules state, and that has not been the case.

Also, there is the violation of his constant, continual, deliberate and unconscionable false witness as he claims we do not believe God came in the flesh, even when constantly told by those he accuses that they do believe that. That is a deliberate misrepresentation and such a character should not be allowed to continue this charade in the forum. I've already posted a "Report To Moderator" and I hope others will as well because these lies and misrepresentations have to stop.

[Studyman]

Studyman, you keep building this strawman and then you are fighting against him, for no one has said that as a man Jesus did his own will, of course, he did not do his own will, neither did he cause his voice to be heard in the streets, in that he never lifted himself up, but came as a lowly servant, serving, not to be served by others. Can we lay this to bed once for all?

Modern religions teach the Word of God didn't become mortal man in all things as His Brethren. That He overcome temptation, not as a man trusting His Father in all things, but as an immortal God that can not be tempted and cannot die.. I am posting God's Word's which say He was a man, in all things like unto His Brethren. That He depended on God the Father for ALL His Power, just like His Brethren. (Moses, Elijah) That He was God, who became a MAN.

You are preaching He was a man and immortal God, that when He was tempted He kicked in His 2nd nature, immortal God powers no human has ever had access to. He said He overcame by the power of God the Father, That all His power, all His miracles, even the power to raise from the dead, came, not from His immortal Self, because He was a man, no longer immortal, but from God the Father. As it were written.

 Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, (Not God, not immortal God Man) he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Therefore, because as a Man, God the Son humbled Himself) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Why is it so hard to believe that the Word of God became mortal man? Every scripture about Him tells us this?

Where is the flesh and blood Jesus that was born and died? Where is the Word of God which became Flesh and blood, was born and died?

1 Cor. 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

No, we see the mortal Jesus no more, He died and was Risen the First Man, the first mortal to inherit immortality. The First Fruit of "many" who believe in Him and obey Him.

Red, The mortal man Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh in all things as His Brethren, is gone. He isn't walking the earth any longer. The Bible teaches that because God the Son, became a man and placed His trust in His Father in all things, that God the Father raised His Mortal body and gave Him immortality as He had before He laid down His Life. BECAUSE this great MAN dedicated His Life, not to Himself, but to God the Father, He became the Author of my Faith, that I should live unto Him as He lived unto His Father.

Religious men of this world have taken this Glory away from Him. They teach that He wasn't really a man at all, but also an immortal God. And He didn't lay down His Life really, because an immortal God can not die, as some have said flat out on this forum. And that He didn't overcome sin as a mortal man who trusted God the Father in all things, but overcome sin because He was also an immortal God.

Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, (The Word of God, the creator of all things)

yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

How does the Word of God, God the Son, the Immortal Alpha and Omega, "learn obedience"? Suffer Temptation? You say Jesus was Both immortal God, and was Flesh and Blood. But the Bible teaches against this.

1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Does this not also include the Victory Jesus had?

You preach Jesus wasn't corruptible. Yet verse after verse tell us He Learned obedience, He LEARNED to "choose the good and reject the evil". He prayed to His Father in tears and fear. "He grew in wisdom" He was God who became mortal, was "made perfect" and was given immortality just as the scriptures teach. You might not believe He was mortal, but He sure did.

1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yet you preach Jesus had both immortality, and was a Man. 2 natures. Yet no "man" can approach immortality according to scriptures.

I know you have been taught this, and who am I, right? Some nobody. I get how this works. But can you not consider that maybe the scriptures are right, and it is the religious doctrines and ancient traditions of religious man who is wrong.

That in Truth the Word of God became mortal man in all things like unto His Brethren, as prophesied. That He did truly come in the Flesh. And that He had a Great Victory over sin and death because He Lived unto His Father and not Himself unto death.

To say Jesus was both Flesh and immortal can not be supported be the Word of God. To teach such a thing is to teach He really didn't come in the Flesh.

I still appreciate your input and this discussion. You are truly a kind man. And I understand completely how one can come by this belief. It is truly the doctrine of the land. My question regarding this religious doctrine is a valid one, and important. What Jesus is promoted in many religions? The Jesus who was immortal God from Birth, or the Jesus who was the Word of God who became mortal man?

[Studyman]

I'm sure you know that the Scripture doesn't say that God became something different, it "literally" says that "God took the form of a Servant." That's quite different from the portrait that you attempt to paint of Him becoming something different other than God. He didn't cease to be God when He took the form of man, He was still God the creator.  The Word of God clearly contradicts any idea that Christ was not God in the flesh and that He would raise up His body.

This is exactly the teaching you called me a liar for pointing out. That God never stopped being immortal, the Creator of all things.

The scriptures say God became a Man, mortal man. Not the Form of God, or angels, but of the seed of Abraham, mortal men. Not man in appearance, or man/God, but that God became a Flesh and Blood mortal man in the person of Jesus. So Jesus was God as a mortal, God as a man. You just said He never stopped being immortal God. That He was always immortal God. That He really didn't become Flesh in all things as His Brethren. This is exactly the teachings, the Doctrine that this thread addresses.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

  When did He know this? At 2 years of age? At 5? No one wants to answer this question. But the scriptures are right there. He "found Himself in the fashion as a man", not some immortal hybrid, or a God Man. But God in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren. (Moses, Elijah) Just as Moses, David, Isaiah prophesied. And when He "found" Himself in this state, as a mortal man, He didn't follow the dictates of His own human mind, but humbled Himself to God the Father and obeyed Him in all things unto death.

9 Wherefore (Because of this)  God (His Father that He prayed earnestly to) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He was God the Son, and He became mortal Man. At some point in His human life He realized who He was. And when it was revealed to Him that He was the God of Abraham found in fashion as mortal Man, He Humbled Himself and "BECAME" Obedient. How can I ignore or not believe these Word's especially given they agree with EVERY other Word of God regarding Him?

John 2:19

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Some might feel better if it were written differently, but Christ didn't say "My God will raise it up," He said He (Jesus Christ) would raise it up when they destroyed it. He was unambiguously still speaking "as God" because He was God. Yet humbled in the form of a man in order to suffer and redeem man. It's not rocket science, it's clearly what is written.

[/quote]

If this was the only Word's of the Christ, if you ignore all other Word's that are written by Him, you might have a case. But Jesus clearly taught that His Father gave Him His Power.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

God the Son already had authority to execute Judgment. He created the Law, He killed people, He gave Elijah the power to raise the dead, Moses the Power do miracles. But the Word says this same God became a Man, became a Flesh and Blood mortal. A man must "learn" judgment, must "learn obedience" as it is written. And where did He get the Judgment He used? His own mind? Or did He Humble Himself to God the father and "live by Every Word which proceeds from His Mouth"?


I could go on and on and have already posted many other Word's of my Savior in which He tells us where His Mortal Self received His Power, authority, judgment.

Shall I ignore all these because religions of the Land don't believe God came to earth as a Flesh and Blood mortal Man?

These are valid questions and valid points, not from some religious franchise somewhere, but from God's Words. Did Jesus cave to the religions of the Land He was born into? Did Abraham? It's not my fault that you don't know or haven't considered these things.

I am here not as your enemy, but as your brother. I am a nobody this is true, but the Word's I am posting are not my own. And are we not instructed to test the religious doctrines of the land? You anger is misplaced, and although common, would be better directed actually studying His Word's I have posted.

If, through EVERY WORD of God, you find that the Word of God didn't come to earth in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren, show me His words. But if you find He did come in the Flesh, as a man in all things as His Brethren, and was, as a mortal, tempted in ALL WAYS as every mortal man, then you will have the same choice that faced Abraham, Caleb, the Apostles, and Jesus Himself. Do we follow the religious doctrines and traditions of the religion we were born into, or do we do as Jesus the Man instructed, "man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

[Erik Diamond]

Studyman, I can say that your doctrine isn’t accurate because of too much speculations and assumptions you have made when defending your doctrine.  I can see that you have forced Scripture to say something when it doesn’t say.  You clearly denied Christ as God in flesh as if He was a created being apart from His Deity.

[Studyman]

Studyman, I can say that your doctrine isn’t accurate because of too much speculations and assumptions you have made when defending your doctrine.  I can see that you have forced Scripture to say something when it doesn’t say.  You clearly denied Christ as God in flesh as if He was a created being apart from His Deity.

The scriptures teach God became a mortal man in all things as His Brethren. You believe the teaching of the religions of the land which preach He really didn't become a man, but remained an immortal God.

I have made the case using, not my word's, but volumes of scriptures from the Law and the Prophets, from Jesus Himself, from His apostles. Over and over the scriptures teach God came to earth in the Flesh, not in immortality, in the person of Jesus.

Show me the speculations and assumptions. I don't have a religious franchise to defend, or a denomination to support. I am trusted Every Word of God. How am I assuming Jesus was a mortal man in all things as His Brethren?

[Erik Diamond]

The scriptures teach God became a mortal man in all things as His Brethren. You believe the teaching of the religions of the land which preach He really didn't become a man, but remained an immortal God.

Of all 38 posts you have made here so far, you were emphasizing that Jesus Christ was merely a man, not a God. So let test this with the rest of Scripture to find out where you stand on other subject concerning Jesus Christ.



Archangel Michael
Daniel 10:13

• "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

• Daniel 10:21

• "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."

• Daniel 12:1

• "And at that time shall Michael stand up, The Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

• And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

• Jude 1:9
  
  • "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
  
  Do you believe that Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ with the name Michael in Hebrew origin [miykael] which means "He who is assuredly God"?
  
  Daniel's prince is Jesus Christ. He is not any other man, not any other angel (messenger).  Michael, is He who is assuredly God, would be the only one who would help in this time of need.  This comes from Jesus Christ Himself! He is the archangel himself because He is the Lord, as it is written:
  
  
  1st Thessalonians 4:16

• "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

• Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

• John 5:26-29

• "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

• And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

• Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

• Jesus Christ is Archangel who will shout His Voice that all in the graves shall hear HIS voice. Period.
  
  Man Child
  
  
  Revelation 12:1-8 KJV
  [1]  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
  [2]  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
  [3]  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
  [4]  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
  [5]  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
  [6]  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
  [7]  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
  [8]  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
  
  
  Tell me, who is this man child? Jesus Christ? Then who is this woman who gave birth? What happened to Jesus Christ when he ascended unto God and His Throne? Wasn't He God also? Notice Michael again in verse 7, isn't it Christ as well?
  
  Let hear your position on these based on your doctrine that Jesus Christ was only merely a man.

[Studyman]

author=Erik Diamond link=topic=3414.msg40988#msg40988 date=1546971665]
The scriptures teach God became a mortal man in all things as His Brethren. You believe the teaching of the religions of the land which preach He really didn't become a man, but remained an immortal God.

Of all 38 posts you have made here so far, you were emphasizing that Jesus Christ was merely a man, not a God. So let test this with the rest of Scripture to find out where you stand on other subject concerning Jesus Christ.



Archangel Michael
Daniel 10:13

• "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

• Daniel 10:21

• "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."

• Daniel 12:1

• "And at that time shall Michael stand up, The Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

• And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

• Jude 1:9
  
  • "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
  
  Do you believe that Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ with the name Michael in Hebrew origin [miykael] which means "He who is assuredly God"?
  
  Daniel's prince is Jesus Christ. He is not any other man, not any other angel (messenger).  Michael, is He who is assuredly God, would be the only one who would help in this time of need.  This comes from Jesus Christ Himself! He is the archangel himself because He is the Lord, as it is written:

Thank you for the scriptures and the question. First, I don't believe I ever used the term "Mere man". This term has been attributed to me, but I never said it in all 38 posts. According to the Scriptures God the Father sent His Son, The God of Abraham, the Creator of All things, to earth as a Man. This same God the Father sent angels to protect Him from evil men when He was a child. Why would evil men want to harm this Child?

Rev. 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. So yes The scriptures say He was a Man in all things as His Brethren, but certainly not a "mere man". God sent His Son on a mission, to come to earth as a man become the unblemished Lamb. Jesus finished His Work.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The Christ, the God of Abraham may have been helped by the Archangel Michael. But if you read all of Daniel 10, and not just verse 13, it kind of answers this question for me. Let me show you..

Dan. 10:4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel; 5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

So I believe in this vision, this was the Word of God, the Christ, before He came to earth in the Flesh. Do you agree that this is the Christ, God the Son who created all things, which was Speaking to Daniel? I have noticed many on this forum like to insult and ask questions, but few are willing to answer them. So please allow the common curtsey of any discussion and please answer the questions I pose to you as I answer the questions you pose to me.


 7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. 10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

So in my understanding, the Christ, the Rock, was sent by His Father to speak with Daniel in a vision. You may say this was God the father, but then who SENT HIM? So the face of Lightning was the God of Abraham. Are we still in agreement?


 12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days:

So the "Me" spoken of here is who? The Christ, Yes? The Rock in His Glory, yes? So the Prince of Persia withstood the Christ 21 days in this vision. Are we still in agreement?


 but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Doesn't this say Michael helped "ME"? Isn't the "ME" the Christ?

Matt. 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He (God the Father) shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matt. 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

I can imagine God the Father would send His Chief Angel to administer after His Own son, Wouldn't you? How many Christ's are there. Michael was only one of the "Chief Princes".

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matt. 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

And we already know satan was out to get the Christ and those who believe on Him. And we know God has Angels dedicated to administer to Him and His Little ones. And we know this same God sent Angels to administer to Jesus the man on more than one occasion. And in this vision that you posted, Michael helped the Christ. Michael wasn't the Christ.

But lets examine all your evidence that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

1st Thessalonians 4:16[/font][/li]
[/list]

• "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

• Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

• John 5:26-29

• "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

• And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

• Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

• Jesus Christ is Archangel who will shout His Voice that all in the graves shall hear HIS voice. Period.
  
  Man Child

Well for starters this scriptures says the Risen Christ come "with the voice of the Archangel" which agrees with Daniel who said "and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.". Jesus also said;

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Among them, not one of them)

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Not one of His Holy Angels)

1 Tim. 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Michael?)

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him .

Heb. 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Revelation 12:1-8 KJV
[1]  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2]  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3]  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4]  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5]  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6]  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7]  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8]  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

First, when was this war fought. When did satan get cast down from heaven never to return? In your religion, was it satan who convinced Eve of a Lie? That was a long time before Jesus walked the earth as a man. When Jesus was a man walking on earth, did He rule over the Nations with a Rod of Iron?

Of course not Erik. He was a man. As it is written "He was To rule" over the nations, but as a man He was the Lamb for the Slaughter. When He comes back, He won't be pushed around by those who call Him Lord, Lord, but don't do what He says.

I will number your question to make it easier to track them.

(#1) Tell me, who is this man child? Jesus Christ? (#2) Then who is this woman who gave birth? (#3) What happened to Jesus Christ when he ascended unto God and His Throne? Wasn't He God also? (#4) Notice Michael again in verse 7, isn't it Christ as well?

Let hear your position on these based on your doctrine that Jesus Christ was only merely a man.[/li]
[/list]

#1. Yes, Jesus the Christ, the Rock, the Word of God which became Flesh.

#2. A virgin so it was fulfilled that which was written in the Scriptures. Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

#3. Yes, As it is written. Ps. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (or "Because of this") God, (The Father in Heaven) thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

#4. No, Michael is not the Christ. Michael serves and Worships and administers to the Christ.

Ps. 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Heb. 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Ps. 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Even Michael)

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

So not by my word's Erik, or the words of the Pope, or of some other famous religious man, but by EVERY WORD of God, through Study of His Word's, it can be said for absolute Certain, and an Absolute Biblical Fact, that Michael the Archangel is not Jesus the Risen Christ.

At least according to His Word's. So Now what. Will you join the others in insults and ridicule, call for my being banned from discussions here. Will you call me a liar and hate me because the scriptures prove you believed in something that wasn't true according to scriptures?

Or will you and I grow together in the knowledge of our Lord, in the unity of Faith.

[Studyman]

He overcame sin as a God Man. Not God and not man, but the God Man. He had to be God because no man could overcome sin, and he had to be man because it was for man that he had to overcome sin. So you are both right and you are both wrong. He was God come to earth in the flesh of man to overcome the sins of man. He had to be man and he had to be god, without either one he couldn't be a substitute for man. If it were true he was only God then there would have been no need for a Savior. God could have just snapped his fingers and we would have been forgiven. But that would violate the law. God never violates his law. The wages of sin is death. A man had to die and a God had to go through death as substitution man, in order for man to live.

I don't agree that the Bible teaches a man can not repent, turn to God and obey Him. The reason I don't agree with this religious doctrine popular in the religions of this land is because what the Word of God says.
 
Gen. 6: 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Now do I believe Noah never transgressed God's Laws? No, but he repented, and loved God with all His Heart, and learned obedience from the things he suffered.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him

Abraham could have said "No!! I will not leave My religion, or the religion of my family" but He didn't. He trusted the Word of God and did as He said.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 
Did Abraham have sin on Him? Sure He did, God didn't call him until he was 70 plus years old. Did he not repent and turn to God? You say it is impossible for a man to trust God enough to obey Him. The Bible teaches just the opposite.

Now all Abraham's obedience does not take away or remove the sins he committed in 70 years of living outside of God's influence. He was guilty, and the wages of sin is death. So a sacrifice had to be made to cleanse his sin. And he knew who would become this sacrifice.

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Again, it is not impossible for man to obey God, it is impossible for man to erase their past sins. All God's true Children live in obedience to Him with all their heart. But that will not take away their past sins.

Jesus was the first man to "become obedient" from His Youth. He is not the first man to live in obedience to God. To say such a thing is to Deny His Own Words.

Matt. 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

There were some who had already repented. Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, and the faith chapter is full of examples of folks who lived in the Faith of Abraham.

So I know it is common religious doctrine to say no man can obey God. But according to His Word's Some have, and many can if they trust His Word's over their own. As it is written.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So the human logic that Jesus had to be an immortal God in order to obey His Own Laws that He created for man, and killed many thousands who disobeyed Him, doesn't make any sense. And the scriptures don't support this either. But it is the widespread belief of the land just the same.

The Christ became mortal man and did exactly what you have been convinced no man can do. And for His dedication to the Father, God the father gave the first human ever to overcome sin from his Youth a name greater than every name. And He "became" the First Mortal Human to die and be raised in an immortal body. The First human of many. therefore the First Fruit of many.

But as it is written, "many" don't believe He really came in the Flesh in all things as His mortal Brethren. But I am convinced that the scriptures are truth, and that the Christ came to earth as a mortal man. I have been provided lots of words from man, but no scriptural evidence that Jesus the Man, was also immortal God.

[Erik Diamond]

First, I don't believe I ever used the term "Mere man". This term has been attributed to me, but I never said it in all 38 posts. According to the Scriptures God the Father sent His Son, The God of Abraham, the Creator of All things, to earth as a Man.

You are deceiving yourself. You are working very hard by introducing your doctrine here by keeping man Christ and God Christ separate from each other.

And yes, "Mere man" is same as a "mortal man" that you often used in your false doctrine.  Aren't I a mortal man and mere man as well?

And yes, your doctrine does view Jesus Christ as mere man... or mortal man. Here are your statement:

1.) "Word of God become a man in all things like unto His Brethren."

2.) "Jesus depended on God the father for "ALL" of His Power, just like His Brethren."

3.) "He (Jesus) said He overcame by the power of God the Father, That all His Power, all His Miracles, even the power to raise the dead, came, not from His immortal self, because He was a man, no longer immortal, but from God the Father."

Your doctrine denies Trinity.  As Tony explained:

1st John 5:7-8

• "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
• And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
• God sent His Son and His Spirit into the world that the world through them might be saved. God "alone" is Savior and no one else. This because God is the Father of the Son by the Holy Spirit of whom He was born. That Holy Spirit of God is what seals us through the work of Christ.Ephesians 1:13
• "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
• Just who saved us? Was it the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? In truth, it was all three because all three are God. There is one God, one name whereby men may be saved, and one Spirit who sealed us. There's no contradiction because the foundation of Christianity is Salvation by Grace of God through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is this one God.
  
  Therefore Jesus Christ is God come in flesh.  Because this Christ is actually creator God, according to ALL of Scripture. The son and the father are one. Didn't you read the Scripture, studyman?

John 10:30-33

• "I and my Father are one.
• Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
• Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
• But He wasn't a mere man as they supposed. The wanted to stone him for the same reason the anti-Trinity folk rejects His very same message. That is the message you are trying to sell here.

[size=78%]I[/size] can imagine God the Father would send His Chief Angel to administer after His Own son, Wouldn't you? How many Christ's are there. Michael was only one of the "Chief Princes".

Archangel Michael is just other name for Jesus Christ, a chief messenger.  I think you need to read the following study:

Who is the Archangel Michael?

[Erik Diamond]

I have made the case using, not my word's, but volumes of scriptures from the Law and the Prophets, from Jesus Himself, from His apostles. Over and over the scriptures teach God came to earth in the Flesh, not in immortality, in the person of Jesus.

You simple twisted the Scripture with a preconceive mind that man Christ was not a God. 

[Studyman]

author=Erik Diamond link=topic=3414.msg40997#msg40997 date=1547061310]
First, I don't believe I ever used the term "Mere man". This term has been attributed to me, but I never said it in all 38 posts. According to the Scriptures God the Father sent His Son, The God of Abraham, the Creator of All things, to earth as a Man.

You are deceiving yourself. You are working very hard by introducing your doctrine here by keeping man Christ and God Christ separate from each other.

And yes, "Mere man" is same as a "mortal man" that you often used in your false doctrine.  Aren't I a mortal man and mere man as well?

And yes, your doctrine does view Jesus Christ as mere man... or mortal man. Here are your statement:

1.) "Word of God become a man in all things like unto His Brethren."

2.) "Jesus depended on God the father for "ALL" of His Power, just like His Brethren."

I believe in these Word's because they are the Word's of the Bible. Jesus said God His Father sent Him to do something and He finished the Work. You can choose to believe He didn't come in all Things as His Brethren if you like. I am simply showing what Moses, Isaiah Jesus Himself and His apostles said about Him. I would post the scriptures, but you will just ignore them again.

3.) "He (Jesus) said He overcame by the power of God the Father, That all His Power, all His Miracles, even the power to raise the dead, came, not from His immortal self, because He was a man, no longer immortal, but from God the Father."

Your doctrine denies Trinity.  As Tony explained:

1st John 5:7-8

• "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
• And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
• God sent His Son and His Spirit into the world that the world through them might be saved. God "alone" is Savior and no one else. This because God is the Father of the Son by the Holy Spirit of whom He was born. That Holy Spirit of God is what seals us through the work of Christ.Ephesians 1:13
• "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
• Just who saved us? Was it the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? In truth, it was all three because all three are God. There is one God, one name whereby men may be saved, and one Spirit who sealed us. There's no contradiction because the foundation of Christianity is Salvation by Grace of God through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is this one God.
  
  Therefore Jesus Christ is God come in flesh.  Because this Christ is actually creator God, according to ALL of Scripture. The son and the father are one. Didn't you read the Scripture, studyman?

John 10:30-33

Jesus said Him and His Father are one. Does this statement erase the scriptures that teach Christ came to earth as a man in all things as His Brethren? Does this verse negate the Biblical Fact that He became a man? Are we not also to become one with Jesus? Does that mean I am immortal too? Or does it mean what Jesus says it means.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

   

• "I and my Father are one.
• Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
• Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
• But He wasn't a mere man as they supposed. The wanted to stone him for the same reason the anti-Trinity folk rejects His very same message. That is the message you are trying to sell here.

Jesus the man was God, who came to earth in the Flesh. They didn't believe this, and it seems maybe you guys don't believe it either. Again, if this was the whole Bible, if Jesus, or His Prophets of Old, or His Apostles, had not said another Word about who Jesus was, then you might have a case. But this verse you singled out isn't the only Word's Spoken.

But I have already said all these things, posted volumes and volumes of His Word's which you have simply ignored. As I said. If you want to believe Jesus came to earth as an immortal God, you are free to do so. But since I am getting all my information about the Christ from Every Word of God, and the scriptures are clear, Jesus didn't come to earth as an immortal God, rather, as a man in all things as His Brethren, tempted in all ways as His Brethren. Was born, and died, and was raised an immortal Spiritual Body, and given a Name by His father above all names given unto man.

I don't believe He was "mere man" just as I don't believe John the Baptist was a "mere man". They both were given specific missions from God. As for the Christ, David said, in the Spirit.

Psalms 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

And this agrees with the rest of the Scriptures about Him.

Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So His Father sent Him as a man, sent angels to protect Him. As all men He had to learn obedience because He was born of a woman, born under His own Law. His Bible says He grew in Wisdom, and when He found out who He was, He humbled Himself to God.

Now you are free to reject all this evidence which shows He truly came in the Flesh in all things as His Brethren if you like, and preach He came to earth as an immortal God Man. I am simply showing all the scriptures which confirm what the Bible says about Him, that He came in the Flesh, not in immortality.


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[size=78%]I[/size] can imagine God the Father would send His Chief Angel to administer after His Own son, Wouldn't you? How many Christ's are there. Michael was only one of the "Chief Princes".

Archangel Michael is just other name for Jesus Christ, a chief messenger.  I think you need to read the following study:

Who is the Archangel Michael?

Well there you go. You ask questions, but never answer them. You say I'm deceived, yet you don't address my posts.

That's OK. Tony seems like a nice guy and I'm sure he believes what He teaches. I have read this very study, or one like it almost 30 years ago now. But you didn't even answer the questions I posed on Daniel 10 where I actually posted other Word's of the Inspired Author, instead of just taking a couple of sentences out of the middle. Both you and Tony, thought it prudent to omit the rest of Daniel 10 to support your religious doctrine. Since I don't have a religious doctrine to defend, It didn't hurt my belief to include other Word's of the chapter. I'm interested in what the word says, not religious traditions of the land.

Had you addressed the rest of Daniel 10, and answered the questions I posed, it would have altered the entire study. Who did Michael help in Daniel 10? And who sent this "man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:" to speak to Daniel, that the Archangel Michael helped?

You can place your belief and trust in the doctrines of Tony if you want. He seems like a nice guy. But Daniel 10, if you read the whole chapter, completely exposes the religious doctrine "Jesus is Michael the Archangel" as from man, and not from God. Since I'm here to discuss the Bible and what it says about the Christ, I not really interested in the religious doctrines of the Land, especially those who seem to contradict the very Word's of the Christ they claim to represent.

If you can answer these two questions I posed to you, and still further the religious doctrine that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, well, go for it. But it seems obvious that, at least in Daniel, they were not the same person.

Of course you will probably not answer again. I am just a nobody. How dare I question the religious doctrines of the land. I will be insulted, ridiculed, probably banned from discussion all together. It's a reality from religious man since Abel was killed by His religious brother Cain.

But if you do answer these two questions, and you "SEE" what they reveal about the difference between Michael and Jesus, will you acknowledge it openly? I think understanding who Daniel was talking to, Who sent Him, and who Michael helped as Daniel described, is the foundation to understanding who Michael is.

I would like to hear your take on it since you have made such an evil report about my posts.

[Mark]

Studyman,

That doesn’t prove Michael isn’t Christ, have you ever read in scriptures:

Zec 3:1-3

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

Here we have the Messenger of the LORD and also Joshua the High Priest both there with Satan standing at Christ right hand to resist him. This was during the days of his flesh as representive of man. I am sure you are aware that Jesus and Joshua are the same name.

As for God helping God that can searched out in scriptures if you will receive it:

Luk 22:42,43

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Unless you believe that this messenger from heaven is a created being that can give God strength somehow. This is God strengthening God for our learning.

God bless
Mark

[Studyman]

Studyman,

That doesn’t prove Michael isn’t Christ, have you ever read in scriptures:

Zec 3:1-3

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

Here we have the Messenger of the LORD and also Joshua the High Priest both there with Satan standing at Christ right hand to resist him. This was during the days of his flesh as representive of man. I am sure you are aware that Jesus and Joshua are the same name.

As for God helping God that can searched out in scriptures if you will receive it:

Luk 22:42,43

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Unless you believe that this messenger from heaven is a created being that can give God strength somehow. This is God strengthening God for our learning.

God bless
Mark

Thank you for your input Mark. I appreciate the point you made.

I think what I'm interested in is to make sure we don't omit scriptures in order to defend a doctrine we have been convinced of. For instance in Zechariah 3, lets look at what the chapter says.

1 And he shewed me (Zechariah)  Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him (Joshua).

2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 So far we have 4 folks attending. We have "The Lord", we have "the Angel of the Lord", and we have Satan, and we have Joshua. It doesn't say the Angel of the Lord said unto satan. And surely you aren't preaching that the Archangel Michael chose Jerusalem.

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he (The Lord) answered and spake unto those that stood before him, (The angel of the Lord) saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

So who did "HE", the Lord, tell to remove the garments? If you believe The Christ and the Angel of the Lord is the same, then in your belief there was only 3 folks there. )The Angel of the Lord (you call Christ) Satan and Joshua. So do you believe then that the "Angel of the Lord" removed His iniquity, and then told satan to take away Jesus's old garments and then the Angel of the Lord will clothe him with new ones?

5 And I (The Lord) said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Who are the "they" Mark?

6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

So this isn't The Lord protesting, this is the angel of the Lord who was standing by him..


7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

So the Angel of the Lord is telling Joshua  what "THE LORD" of Hosts saith. And if Joshua hearkens to "The Lord's" Words, He will give Joshua a place to walk "among these that stand by". And who is it that is standing by Joshua? "It just said "and the Angel of the Lord stood by".


8 Hear now, O Joshua, the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Who are those that are sitting before Joshua? Are you saying Michael will bring forth his servant, the Branch? If Joshua represents Jesus, then who is the Branch?

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

You see what I mean Mark? It doesn't make any sense preach that these scripture proves Jesus is Michael. Others might, I'm only speaking to the chapter you used to promote the doctrine you believe.

But if you understand that the Risen Christ, the Son of God, will come with His Angels, including Michael, to gather His Elect from the four corners of the earth, and that this vision represents all who died in Christ as did Joshua, and how the first resurrection will take place, then this chapter aligns itself perfectly with the rest of the Word's of God.

Matt. 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

As for the man Jesus being an immortal God asking another immortal God for help, the verse you used doesn't prove that either. Jesus, the Man was following His own instruction for all man.

Matt. 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Thanks again for the reply, it is good for men to discuss His Word in these evil times. I would welcome more discussion of Zec. 3, either on this open forum, or PM. I hope to have such a discussion with you.

[Mark]

Greetings Studyman,

Thank you for your response. It’s not my intention to hijack this thread regarding Zechariah chapter 3, so my apologies. When I have access to my computer (responding off my phone) I can answer your questions.

Thank you everyone.

Mark