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Author Topic: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?  (Read 739 times)

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2018, 03:58:29 PM »
The elect are the captives in spiritual prison that were bruised, and with His bruising we were set free. We were the spirits in prison that Christ came to substitute for, that we might be set at liberty.

That's not what I believe. Not to stray much off topic, but my pastor believes 1 Peter 3 18-20 refers to Christís descent into Hell after He was crucified because he wanted to give the fallen angels a second chance. So he went there to proclaim His victory to these fallen angels who were imprisoned there. These fallen angels are speaking about Genesis's ďthe sons of GodĒ.  So I don't think your understanding is correct. This would also explain how the fallen angels got back into heaven to rebel in Revelation 12.

Here is, 1Pe 3:18 - 19, word for word: -

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 
1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

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1 Peter 3 18-20 refers to Christís descent into Hell after He was crucified

This doesn't say Christ went into Hell? Why do you want to add to the scriptures? Is it because you wanted to disagree for the sake of disagreeing with the person who gave good answer or you wanted to make a point that you are into what your pastor believes. Either way you are mistaken ... and you should take the responsibility that you are, not your pastor, to be blamed for repeating the error in here. Amazing that from imagination, bringing the phrase "into Hell" to add into the verses of 1Pe 3:18 - 19, you construct a new idea of God's Son giving a second chance to fallen angels. That is heretic teaching.

Know that when you are not careful to take the written word of God, truth word for word, you end up deluding yourself. Sorry for saying that, but, when we look to the words again: the writer (speaking of the ones in prison) says "us", "the unjust"; that is clearly speaking about the sinners on earth, as opposed to what you have been mislead to believe.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. 

These are the elect that were once in prison as sinners but because of the death and resurrection of Christ they are freed out and made to stand before God with hope for the second coming of their Savior.

Isa 9:2  The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isa 42:7  To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Joh 9:39  And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 
Joh 9:40  And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 
Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. 

As Red has mentioned Hell is prepared by God for the Devil and his ministers. "Fallen angels" such as the likes of those described in Joh 9:41 are preserved for eternal damnation (It is plain and clear language that Christ's work of salvation does not include or show Him going into Hell - the place prepared for the Devil - or Him being lenient to the effect that the resistant will have 2nd chance). People of right mind will never think of Christ Jesus going into Hell and/or giving a second chance to those condemned or thrown into it?

Joh 15:22  If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 
Joh 15:23  He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 
Joh 15:24  If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 
Joh 15:25  But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 

Here we see the woe to those who oppose the Gospel of truth, when God judges none is able to escape (Heb 10:29 - 31) ...

Most importantly, do not confuse yourself by mixing up personal ideas with the word. The way to Heaven (eternal life) and the way to Hell (eternal death) are different and quite the opposites (Mat 7:13 - 14). That 1Pe 3:18 - 19 entirely is showing how the Son of God is the way to Heaven, who came from Heaven and went to Heaven - AFTER death and resurrection, may I add.

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Christís descent into Hell after He was crucified

No. The dying Jesus on the cross asked the Father to receive His spirit. Then the Father "in Heaven" received the Spirit as requested (i.e. when He died, gave up the ghost):

Luk 23:46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

1Pe 3:18 teaches Jesus was put to death in the flesh; His dead body was laid down into a grave. He did not go into the place called Hell AFTER crucified!

Joh 19:41  Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 
Joh 19:42  There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand. 

Neither did He AFTER burial. He was risen from the place they had laid Him as quickened by the spirit as 1Pe 3:18 explained.
Mar 16:6  And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

After resurrection from the dead, He went to His glory (Joh 17:4 - 5). Saint Stephen bears witness to the fact that Jesus was raised to the right hand of God. Also we see him approach God in the name of Jesus by praying directly to Lord Jesus.

Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Thus, sinners for whom Christ died were in (spiritual) prison and darkness. Those dead in sins and trespasses need spiritual wake up. The same spirit that quickened Him from the dead brings these prisoners out to light.

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 
Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict sinners explained by 1Pe 3:19. It is who that quickens and brings sinners to Christ for their salvation. Nobody can hear or believe the gospel of salvation unless baptized by the Holy Spirit (Rev 14:3 - 5).

1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 

A helpful study on 1Pe 3:19 is available on this website, I have read it long ago, I don't remember but it was written by Tony I think and has title something like this: How did Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison?

At the end, I would say the doctrine that Jesus went into Hell is presumptuous lie that must be denied completely. Because the Holy Spirit is all-able to free us from the power of Satan (the powers of death and darkness, the spiritual imprisonment so well covered by Tony above), that there is no necessity for Jesus to 'go into' Hell. What am I saying, this is shameful!

Act 26:15  And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 
Act 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 
Act 26:17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 
Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 

Your belief of Christ descending into Hell and for the sake of giving a second chance to fallen angels found in Hell is not from God.

Mat 5:37  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 

You are wrong then believing doctrines of demons right from the mouth of your pastor. Hoping you repent for the sake of your soul, also you stop wrestling the word to fit your own ideas because that is how you getting confused sometimes even on truth that is simple to understand. I say that because you and the likes make it constant game while you know it is dangerous to twist the scripture. Apologia.
እግዚኣብሄር ኣቦ ብወዱ ብጐይታ ክርስቶስ የሱስ ዓብዪ ግብሪ ምድሓን ገይሩልና ። ክብርን ምስጋናን ፡ ብስም ክርስቶስ የሱስ ንዕኡ ይኹኖ ። ኣሜን ።

ናይ ዘልኣለም ህይወት ፣ ብናይ ኣምላኽና ዘልኣለማዊ ጸጋ ። ንሱ ርእሲ ኹሉ ኮይኑ ፣ ንዘልኣለም ይነግስ ።

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2018, 06:12:21 PM »
The elect are the captives in spiritual prison that were bruised, and with His bruising we were set free. We were the spirits in prison that Christ came to substitute for, that we might be set at liberty.

... descent into Hell after He was crucified because he wanted to give the fallen angels a second chance. ... . This would also explain how the fallen angels got back into heaven to rebel in Revelation 12.

I don't know what you are trying to say by they got back to rebel. They were given 2nd chance (meaning to be reconciled to God, right?) and got back into heaven to rebel looks contradictory and explains nothing but confusion.

There is no single point in Revelation 12 about fallen angels getting back from Hell into Heaven. The whole chapter describes Satan, the great red dragon, initially seen in heaven being thrown out of it. He was angry because that's God's judgement on him that he could never get back into heaven so as before to hurt the elect/brethren. God made an end to his day and night accusing of them.


Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19  Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20  Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

God sent His Son to bring His people out of prison of darkness and of the power of Satan and death.

Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Sinners (children of Adam) are unable to remove the chains from their neck by their own. Thus God chose His Son who is able to accomplish the job by putting Himself in their place, the lamb of God took the chains off of the sinners and break them on him (the Atonement).

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down."

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"


For God's salvation to reach out to the elect that are widespread throughout four quarters of the earth, Satan was cast out of heaven into earth, and then even put in prison in the bottomless pit (Rev 20:2 - 3). It is not the other way around.
እግዚኣብሄር ኣቦ ብወዱ ብጐይታ ክርስቶስ የሱስ ዓብዪ ግብሪ ምድሓን ገይሩልና ። ክብርን ምስጋናን ፡ ብስም ክርስቶስ የሱስ ንዕኡ ይኹኖ ። ኣሜን ።

ናይ ዘልኣለም ህይወት ፣ ብናይ ኣምላኽና ዘልኣለማዊ ጸጋ ። ንሱ ርእሲ ኹሉ ኮይኑ ፣ ንዘልኣለም ይነግስ ።

Apostolic

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2018, 08:08:37 PM »
... descent into Hell after He was crucified because he wanted to give the fallen angels a second chance. ... . This would also explain how the fallen angels got back into heaven to rebel in Revelation 12.

I don't know what you are trying to say by they got back to rebel. They were given 2nd chance (meaning to be reconciled to God, right?) and got back into heaven to rebel looks contradictory and explains nothing but confusion.
It's not confusion. They were fallen angels in Genesis and also spoken of in Ezekiel. Therefore they were kicked out of heaven for iniquity. But Christ visited these spirits in prison.

Ezekiel 28:13-15
You were in Eden, the garden of God; every stone of great price was your clothing, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the emerald and the carbuncle: your store-houses were full of gold, and things of great price were in you; in the day when you were made they were got ready. I gave you your place with the winged one; I put you on the mountain of God; you went up and down among the stones of fire. There has been no evil in your ways from the day when you were made, till sin was seen in you."

In order for them to be in heaven in John's vision of Revelation 12, Christ had to forgive them in hell where they were.

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not have pity for the angels who did evil, but sent them down into hell, to be kept in chains of eternal night till they were judged;"

Nothing confusing about it. They sinned and were cast down to hell. But Christ went to hell to speak to these spirits and bring forgiveness. That's how they were cast down in the old testament but were in heaven to rebel in the new testament.

Psalms 104:4
"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire."


Erik Diamond

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2018, 10:32:49 PM »

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It's not confusion

Yes. It is.

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They were fallen angels in Genesis and also spoken of in Ezekiel.

You got "angels" confused. They are not the celestial beings. They are the human messengers (angels). 

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Therefore they were kicked out of heaven for iniquity.

No. You also got "heaven" confused. It was not third heaven where God sits.  The heaven represents the kingdom of Heaven ON EARTH where the congregation (woman) dwells, Revelation 12:1-6. Christ (Michael) and His Human messengers cast Satan and his deceived human messengers out of the congregation of Israel with the fall of Old Testament Congregation where Christ has rebuilt it in three days. No Longer Satan was able to deceive messengers within God's congregation while he was bound in bottomless pit.

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But Christ visited these spirits in prison.

He did preach to human messengers with unregenerate spirit, Hebrews 4:12.  We all were once in prison - under spiritual bondage of Satan. Jesus did NOT physically descended into hell to preach to "fallen angels", rather it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching.  It is Christ's Word is how He freed us through the testimony of Two Witnesses (Christians). Not Angels.

Joh 8:36

(36)  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free from what? Prison!
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

aquatic

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2018, 05:36:53 PM »
2 Peter2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Who are the angels (messengers) in this verse? Are they anyone specific?

Thanks

Kenneth White

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2018, 07:38:21 PM »
The Old Testament saints are the messengers of God that sinned and were judged and blinded. In part.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Anne

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2018, 02:46:51 AM »
Tony, you told me before that Isaiah 53:8 means who shall declare his genealogy, which I assumed meant family history? Isn't this a little different from the Lord declaring His family.

Reformer

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2018, 05:14:21 PM »

  "Assumption is the mother of errors."

Anne

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2018, 05:18:09 PM »

I know.

George

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2018, 03:03:19 AM »
I know.

Then don't assume Tony Warren's answer is a good one. Ask your pastor or the elder of your church.

Tony Warren

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2018, 09:01:38 AM »
>>>
Tony, you told me before that Isaiah 53:8 means who shall declare his genealogy, which I assumed meant family history?
<<<

Hi again Anne,
   Mankind is His genealogy or His lineage in that He had to come to earth as Man.Adam in order to deliver man from sin, which is the essence of the gospel message. Yes, from the perspective of the prophesy of his "physically" being from a particular line, that is literally/physically fulfilled to let all know that this Man was the one that the prophets spoke about. But we have to understand that no human man, from any line of descent from mankind, could ever fulfill the spiritual obligatiopns of the Covenabnt/Promise that Christ had to fulfill. For that it would take another line of descent, a spiritual ancestry.

Matthew 1:18
  • "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."
John 6:41-42
  • "The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
  • And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?"

So often Christians miss the mark in concentrating on the physical lineage and missing the sublimities in the fact that Christ was God, who came down to earth in the flesh as a man, in order that we might be freed from our spiritual prisons and live. It's not all about physical source or ancestry, but Spiritual origin. Yes, family history is important, but as in earth, so also in heaven. God's purpose and will was revealed in the trinity of 3, and that is the main point. The will of the father, accomplished in the Son, revealed to man by the Holy Spirit. That is who shall declare of and to His generation or His family.


Quote
>>>
Isn't this a little different from the Lord declaring His family.
<<<

Actually it's pretty much the same principle. Even in our day, Genealogy means "a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor." The declaration of Christ's ancestry is that it was through the flesh of man, but from God in that Mary was with child of God, which of course is the heart of the "true" gospel message that we preach. "God with us" in the form of a man. That is the only way man could be saved (as prophesied), through God Himself (Isaah 43:11, Isaiah 45:21, Ho 13:4). That is the only way His generation could be declared.

Philippians 2:5-11
  • "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
  • Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
  • But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
  • And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
  • Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
  • That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
  • And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The Lord has declared His generation, and because He is in us, we through His Spirit declare His generation. Yes, as foretold by His genealogy, but ultimately He is the source or root from which the family of God springs. He is the Root that bears the Olive Tree not the Olive Tree the Root. In simple terms, without His regenerating power of genealofy, there would be no children of God. His generation testifies of His genealogy through the flesh of Mary and the being of God, as being the Word/Promise/Covenant made flesh, the very reason for us being His generation/family.

1st Peter 2:9
  • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Because He confirmed the Covenant by His death and resurrection, He gave that promise its strength.  He secured us as the elect generation, that through His perfect work would declare his birth and family. So the question is no longer who will declare His generation, but who will believe the report? ...None but whom the Lord gives to believe. Our spiritual genealogy is through Christ, who is the the source of our family relationship.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

George

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Re: Christ taken from Prison and who declares his Generation?
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »
2 Peter2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Who are the angels (messengers) in this verse? Are they anyone specific?

Thanks

The fallen angels who rebelled against Christ and were cast out of heaven. Cast down equals fallen.

Revelation 12:9 (Darby)
"And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent, he who is called Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole habitable world, he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him".


 


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