When Will All the Church be in Apostasy?

[R. Anspach]

And you think that was a good idea in the 20s?

Greetings Kira~I was not there and cannot answer that question.

Yeah but you brought it up. You must have brought it up as a example. I'll add my 2 cents even though no one asked for it. A Christian leaving all churches 90 years ago is not a good example of the righteous justification for anyone to leave the church. You cannot answer the question, but shouldn't you be able to answer the question? Isn't it a pertinent question given our knowledge of the church in the 20s?

I'm an avid reader and have read behind most of the known preachers from Augustine to Luther and Calvin down to our days,

Augustine wasn't perfect in his teaching, neither Luther or Calvin. But that isn't excuse to abandon the church or assembly of God. Yes, there has been decline even in the 60s, but to believe that justifies abandoning the churches back then is not sound theology.

Now, was Pink right or wrong? I believe that he was obedient to the call that he received from God.

Was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter of the false doctrine of Dispensationalism or was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter against Dispensationalism? I'm not saying that to condemn him, just to demonstrate that he was not perfect, and his actions are not something anyone should emulate. The question is not if Arthur Pink should ave abandoned the church in the 20s, the question is was that biblically justifiable. Not that he left a church, but that (according to you) he left all churches. I have no reason to disbelieve that, but he was not right in doing so, and this I know. As Kira said, you can believe what you want, but the bible doesn't support that and so neither do I.

Do I agree with everything the good man taught? no~yet his overall life and teachings were godly, scriptural, and faithful to the light that God had graciously given to him.

As others have said here many times before, errors usually come because Christians are concentrating on man, and not on the bible. Pink shouldn't even be in this conversation, it should be where does the bible teach all churches and organized religions were not of God in the 20s?  Look to the bible, not to other men's actions.

[Erik Diamond]

I'm convinced that the great tribulation first spoken of by Daniel and enlarged upon by Christ, Paul and John had its early beginning in early 1800's and picked up momentum in the late nineteen century.

Really?

Do you realize that based on Revelation 7 and Revelation 9 and 20, that the great tribulation did not start until God first sealed all of His People, and Satan being loosened from bottomless pit? If you believe this started in early 1800, then salvation expired even before we were born!


Erik

[Red]

Really?

Do you realize that based on Revelation 7 and Revelation 9 and 20, that the great tribulation did not start until God first sealed all of His People, and Satan being loosened from bottomless pit? If you believe this started in early 1800, then salvation expired even before we were born!


Erik

Erik, I only said that the great tribulation had its beginning in the early 1800~actually to a small degree just after the apostles died off, proven by the history of the so-called church fathers~we both know that the mystery of iniquity has been working since the very beginning of time~ But the FULL BLOWN will be the final days of the great tribulation, just before this world comes to an end. We will add~the saved is not referring to regeneration, but PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE of the truth according to:

Matthew 24:22~"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Salvation in the sense in which our Lord used the word saved, does not have any reference to physical life being saved, or to regeneration, BUT PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, which very few have. Very few were saved during our Lord's day as far as saved in use in the sense in which our Lord used the word in Matthew 24:22, but God will still quicken his elect to spiritual life up until Jesus comes again, but some of them will NOT come to the same level of the truth, and we should not expect that, for it will not happen. If we think all will, then that will open the door for us to judge people that we should not judge. We should not fellowship with those who do not love our Lord and his word, as we understand it, yet we leave judging their hearts to God alone. I'm sure if we were living in the days of Lot's, we would all have unmercifully judged him to be of this world, and not of God.

I will also add this~regeneration is a work of God ALONE, without the means of the will of man, or the will of the flesh. God does not need man in order to regenerate his elect, he does this glorious work BY HIMSELF. So, if you think that during the final days of the church age when the truth will be hard to find, that truth cannot get to them, the scriptures will assure us that WILL NOT in the least hinder God from regenerating his elect since one is born OF GOD apart from ALL MEANS.  God certainly does not need you, me, or ANY MAN to quicken his elect to life.... he does it BY HIMSELF according to his great power~ the SAME power that resurrected Jesus Christ according to Ephesians 1:18-20.

"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

[Erik Diamond]

Erik, I only said that the great tribulation had its beginning in the early 1800~actually to a small degree just after the apostles died off, proven by the history of the so-called church fathers. But the FULL BLOWN will be the final days of the great tribulation~and the saved is not referring to regeneration, but PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE of the truth according to:

Sorry, it does not make any sense. Not according to the timing of Two Witnesses' testimony for salvation and their death in Revelation 11.  The Great Tribulation FOR the Elect cannot start until Satan (and his armies of locusts) come out of Bottomless pit and the testimony being finished, (Rev 11:7, Rev 9:1-4, Rev 20:7-8). This only can take place AFTER God finish secured all His Elect which is, of course, SALVATION. After this, there will be no more salvation when no man can work.

Joh 9:4(4)  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

You just got the timing wrong.  You assumed that the great tribulation started with the false establishments like SDA, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. of the 1800's.  I do not believe this is when the abomination of desolation begun.  Instead, the AoD will only be found found within a church that is supposed to be faithful representative of God but now has become apostasy.  The ADA, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons do not qualify. 

[Red]

Sorry, it does not make any sense. Not according to the timing of Two Witnesses' testimony for salvation and their death in Revelation 11.

Erik I agree that the two witnesses (Jews and Gentiles that make up the NT church) shall indeed be put to death in the sense that their testimony will NO LONGER be accepted as the truth, and they are NOT WELCOME in the CHURCHES who call themselves the Church of Christ/God, etc. Also, since their testimony is rejected, they themselves have fled (left the churches) unto the mountain to worship their God according to his word. Now, you seem to use the word salvation in a broad sense including regeneration, which God DOES NOT use man to regenerate his elect, he does it by himself, period. Please show me where in Revelation 11 where the two servants are used to quicken men to spiritual life~that's NOT our calling, our calling is to preach the word to bring PRACTICAL salvation to the elect, that's all we can do, and no more can we do. Now when the so-called church refuses to hear the two true prophets of God, there is NO HOPE for them to come unto the knowledge of the truth, for they alone bring the truth of God with them.

You assumed that the great tribulation started with the false establishments like SDA, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. of the 1800's.  I do not believe this is when the abomination of desolation begun.  Instead, the AoD will only be found found within a church that is supposed to be faithful representative of God but now has become apostasy.  The ADA, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons do not qualify.

Brother, I only use them to show how many false cults arose during that time BECAUSE OF THE CHURCH ITSELF began to decline and left the truths of God, opening the doors for such cults.

[Red]

Augustine wasn't perfect in his teaching, neither Luther or Calvin.

Correct, and neither are you and I.

Was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter of the false doctrine of Dispensationalism or was he obedient when he was a ardent supporter against Dispensationalism?

He was not, yet he saw the light and the errors of Dispensationalism and like us was converted from that error~ as so many of us have since we first came to Christ~ A Christian life is one of a long process of conversions, over many years.   

[Erik Diamond]

Now, you seem to use the word salvation in a broad sense including regeneration, which God DOES NOT use man to regenerate his elect, he does it by himself, period. Please show me where in Revelation 11 are the two servants use to quicken men to spiritual life~that's NOT our calling,

Rev 11:3
(3)  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.God has empowered His servants with the Holy Spirit to bring Salvation (and judgment) to the world. The spirit of God works through His elect.


So yes, it is our calling of the Great Commission until the testimony is finished.When the testimony is finished, God allowed Satan to come out of the bottomless pit and to scatter the power of the Two Witnesses:


Dan 12:7
(7)  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Brother, I only use them to show how many false cults arose during that time BECAUSE OF THE CHURCH ITSELF began to decline and left the truths of God, opening the doors for such cults.

But STILL this does not prove that the great tribulation/abomination of desolation took place in 1800's like you claimed.  Else the testimony of Two Witnesses has already ended at that time long before we were born! I believe that you got the timing of the Great Tribulation incorrect. 

[Red]

Rev 11:3(3)  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.God has empowered His servants with the Holy Spirit to bring Salvation (and judgment) to the world. The spirit of God works through His elect.

Erik, the church (the very elect) can ONLY bring salvation in a practical sense, NOT in a regenerated sense. I may come back later and give my understanding of how the words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the scriptures.

Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

But STILL this does not prove that the great tribulation/abomination of desolation took place in 1800's like you claimed.

I did NOT say it took place, only is where it is clearly evident "about" when it started. Later....Red

[Melanie]

But STILL this does not prove that the great tribulation/abomination of desolation took place in 1800's like you claimed.

I did NOT say it took place, only is where it is clearly evident "about" when it started. Later....Red

Hi Red,
  I do not believe that the Great Tribulation period started in the 1800's either. I don't think there is any scriptural precedent for saying that. The examples you gave could happen in any era from 1700s, 1600s or the 1500s. There has always been falling away, that's why the Reformers broke away from the catholic church. But that wasn't the beginning of the great tribulation period either. Let us be reminded about the tenor of the Great Tribulation period.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22"

That surely wasn't the 1800s. From what I read, I don't think the great tribulation period could have started until relatively recently.

[Red]

That surely wasn't the 1800s. From what I read, I don't think the great tribulation period could have started until relatively recently.

Greetings Melanie, I agree that truth and godliness was much more prevalent in the 1800's than now, yet the the bud begin to show itself in the 1800's "until" where we are now, as I see it. I would not fall out with a brother or sister over when they understand the beginning of the great tribulation period, which we both agree that it is spiritual in nature and that it is toward professing Christianity and NOT toward Israel after the flesh. These we would earnestly contend for, not as to when one brother thinks when it may have first begun to start, yet the time for Christ's coming was not at the very door in the 1800's I know very well. 

Matthew 24:6~"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

I understand that Christ is speaking of spiritual wars, not literal, for that we have always had since the very beginning of time. Yet, when we see many things that Christ gave to us in Matthew 24 beginning to come to pass and the time they began then we should be able to know the season as to when it is very near, even at the door~ and that season length could be two or three hundred, or even longer, we just DO NOT the hour and day, that is hidden from us, but for sure it shall be shortened for the elect's sake.

You quoted:

Matthew 24:21-22~"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "

The word "saved" is used in a practical sense, meaning that unless God shortened those days NO FLESH would be saved with having true knowledge of biblical doctrine, and certainly not of the very days in which Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21. But even more, even the very elect have been to a certain degree affected by the voices of the false prophets that are in the world. God has his very elect in the churches that are in Mystery Babylon, this I would not deny, or the call to come out would be useless to mention by John. I understand Mystery Babylon to be this world with its religion , "and" its commerce, entertainment, etc. The call to come out of her is not limited to its religion only, but to its love of commerce (stock market) and its entertainment, which TRULY is much more harder to separate from than false religion as we all should agree on. The call to come out of her is the very SAME call that the same apostle gave in these scriptures:

1st John 2:15-17~"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

This world has much to offer to our flesh by way of its religion, its commerce, and its entertainments~yet God has call us to "come out from among her my people"~those who refuse to come out of her, may very well end up like Lot's wife, BUT God is the judge not me~nevertheless, we should remember Lot's wife and her secret love for the world and what happened to her.