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Author Topic: Marriage And Divorce  (Read 36252 times)

Maurice

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2015, 01:11:30 PM »
 :hammerhead:
Tony, you are so long winded, especially overbearing with people. Divorce is not this cut and dried issue that you think it is. Why not stop talking so much and start listening a little. We've heard all this before. But you can't have law without compassion. Why not stop preaching so much and start loving a little.

John

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #136 on: January 14, 2015, 10:59:55 PM »
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Tony, you are so long winded, especially overbearing with people.

No! Not "overbearing" but "forbearing" - that is, patient (more than you deserve). He patiently provide instruction from Gods' word and refutes the same vapid arguments for divorce and annulment made by the same group of stiff necked and rebellious people who think effectively using the Bible for toilet paper is 'loving' ... but those who obey God's unambiguous commands shows a lack of compassion.  What you really mean is: "love" is really "lawlessness". You do whatever seems good in your eyes, Bible be damned - and because your position is an offense to God you feign to have a higher moral ground  motivated out of "love".

If you actually "loved" in the Christian sense you would hear God's commandments about divorce and obey - His commandments are not heavy (despite your claims to the contrary).

By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not heavy. - 1Jn 5:2-3

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Divorce is not this cut and dried issue that you think it is.

Really? What is it that you find so complicated? You know, most everyone I've ever talked with who vehemently defended divorce was someone who was divorced themselves. They would not hear the Bible on the matter because they knew it condemned them. So, they obfuscate and pretended to be bewildered - no matter how many times they were corrected by God's word, they just put their teeth on edge and turn back to defend themselves for their sinful actions. As such, their ears are stopped and they cannot hear God speaking - it is the judgment of God against them.

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Why not stop talking so much and start listening a little.

You mean, why not stop quoting the Scriptures - which you cannot gainsay against - and instead start using your "feelings" as your guide. It makes you "feel" better to believe that people should be able to divorce. Are you not aware? God says your "feelings" are rotten, sinful, trash - they have no validity. Your heartfelt "love" for people in troubled marriages that causes you to "feel" they should divorce is of the same stuff that flows through city sewers. You are selling an idea that is from Satan - time to wake up.

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We've heard all this before.

No doubt you've "heard" all God's words before, many, many times before as witnessed by those on this forum ... and yet it is clear you have never "heard" God's word before.

Act_7:57  And crying out with a loud voice, they held their ears and rushed on him with one passion.

Oh sure, people have "heard" what God says through many faithful witnesses on this forum, happens all the time - but because they have the same "kill the messenger" attitude - with their hand firmly over their ears - it is impossible for them to receive it.

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But you can't have law without compassion.

More accurately, you mean: We will not have God's Law! Our sinful man-centered "compassion" will be our law. That's the sad truth of it.

When any honest person looks upon the current state of society ravished by your "compassion" for divorce (and remarriage), the penalty is overwhelmingly painful to see. Broken families, destroyed lives, children traumatized and forever unable to trust, selfish parents abandoning their children, the image of God as Father defaced so that divorced children cannot trust God and go on through their lives hating. Then there are all the other ramification of the sin of divorce and remarriage: child abuse, neglect, rape, molestation ... and the children that go on to become drug/alcohol abusers, caught in sexual sins (looking for love), so many empty souls with no ability to trust or love - many that eventually end their lives in suicide or fill the prisons.

God's laws are compassionate!, they are by definition "loving" - precisely because they were designed by God to avoid this very disgrace from happening - if they had only been obeyed (but the arrogance of self-righteous man will not have it so).

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Why not stop preaching so much and start loving a little.

How's about YOU stop acting out of emotion and feelings and start judging aright - keep God's commandments! 

Joh_14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It's far simpler than you think. If you refuse God's commandments - trying to sell people on some other way that makes you happy - then you DON'T LOVE GOD!  Further, not only are you not a Christian (follower of Christ) when you refuse to repent and humble yourself, God will ensure your further blindness by not revealing Himself to you (though the Scriptures).

Joh 14:21  He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him.

Those who go their own arrogant way and oppose God are like the blind - God hides Himself from the proud - and these spiritually blind, so-called Christians, will together come to a very bad end unless they repent

Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy concerning you, saying: "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and with their lips honor Me; but their heart holds far off from Me. But in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." - Mat 15:7-9

Are you offended by the commandments of God? Do you now feel morally superior in your elevated status being more "compassionate" than others because you do not forbid divorce? Consider that you are declaring to everyone within earshot that you are not a Christian. Do you not think that God will root you up? Don't be so foolish to think otherwise.

Then coming, the disciples said to Him, You know that hearing the Word, the Pharisees were offended? But answering, He said, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up. Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind; and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit. - Mat 15:12-14


Some will follow the discordant piping of these blind leaders - but the pit God describes for them is eternal. At such a cost, is it really so hard to put away your pride and hear the truth?

Pro_29:23 The pride of man brings him low, but the humble of spirit takes hold of honor.

It is for all Christians an honor to know God and obey!

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Deuce Johnson

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #137 on: January 15, 2015, 04:59:34 AM »
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Tony, you are so long winded, especially overbearing with people.

No! Not "overbearing" but "forbearing" - that is, patient (more than you deserve).
john


 :ditto:  Well said. Some people don't deserve the time and patience of good men. They abuse it!




Gilda

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2015, 06:26:13 AM »
Joh_14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It's far simpler than you think. If you refuse God's commandments - trying to sell people on some other way that makes you happy - then you DON'T LOVE GOD!  Further, not only are you not a Christian (follower of Christ) when you refuse to repent and humble yourself, God will ensure your further blindness by not revealing Himself to you (though the Scriptures).

A Big  :amen: to That!

 It's not just law vs grace, it's law by grace!



Maurice

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2015, 08:10:58 AM »

A Big  :amen: to That!

 It's not just law vs grace, it's law by grace!



  :S_Confused:  What does that even mean?


Maurice

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2015, 08:39:16 AM »
No! Not "overbearing" but "forbearing"


 I don't know what dictionary you use, but mine defines overbearing as being overly dominant, to deal with issues harshly, to be snooty and arrogant. I would say that fits the bill. The Reformed faith exudes a conceited, self-important and superior spirit. That's not patient, that's prideful.


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patient (more than you deserve).

Like I said, overbearing, dominant, harsh, snooty and arrogant. As for what I deserve, I thought that you Reformed christians taught that none of us deserved grace. As usual John, you contradict your own teaching.

 I Timothy 3:2
 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"
 II Timothy 2:24
  "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,"

Tony? hmmmmm,  "maybe." You Not by a long shot! Your doctrine of grace is whatever you feel on any given day.


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If you actually "loved" in the Christian sense you would hear God's commandments about divorce and obey -


I don't know, but in Christian doctrine isn't love supposed to be seasoned by grace, compassion and benevolence?



spices51

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #141 on: February 17, 2015, 04:25:10 PM »
 The  question I have is when a woman divorces her husband , is it right  for the husband to pursue and be with other women?? . I read in the Bible that you are to remain single and not to remarry. The Lord says  divorce is wrong and I believe what the Lord says . Some people I know teach that it is wrong but do the opposite of what they teach.

Reformer

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2015, 12:32:03 AM »
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The  question I have is when a woman divorces her husband , is it right  for the husband to pursue and be with other women??

No! But a woman who ignores God's word that she shouldn't divorce, is in no position to judge a man who remarries after she divorces him. Both are equally in the wrong. God encourages us to forsake the words of men, and be obedient to his word concerning the marriage covenant. But it takes the spirit for us to have that power to obey. Without it, people think they know everything and will do what seems right to them.

 1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:


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I read in the Bible that you are to remain single and not to remarry.

Yes, the Bible says we are not to divorce. If our partner divorces us we are to remain single or be reconciled to our spouse. Same with the wife, if a wife sins against God by divorcing, the husband is to remain single. Or even if one were to separate from the other, they both are not to remarry, but remain single.

 1Co 7:10  And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
 12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

But as I said, if we have disobeyed and divorced, it's likely we will obey by not remarrying either.


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The Lord says  divorce is wrong and I believe what the Lord says . Some people I know teach that it is wrong but do the opposite of what they teach.

Sad but true, most pastors and ministers teach that God hates divorce, but then they turn right around and say you can divorce for any number of reasons. God has a word for that. It's called Hypocrite!

 Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Maurice

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2015, 05:15:18 AM »
The  question I have is when a woman divorces her husband , is it right  for the husband to pursue and be with other women??


Why not? She's not married to him anymore, by her own decision to divorce him, right? So why should she be worried about what a man does whom she obviously doesn't even want to be with anymore, except spite. Women are spiteful creatures.  What good person would divorce a man and then try and find reasons for him to be miserable by forcing him to remain single? A spiteful woman, that's who. The question is, is that christian, or is that hateful?


Melanie

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #144 on: May 12, 2015, 09:11:10 PM »

A Big  :amen: to That!

 It's not just law vs grace, it's law by grace!


  :S_Confused:  What does that even mean?

Maurice,
   It means that we have a desire to keep God's law, by Grace. Not of ourselves and not to gain favor, but by God's blessing.

Fred

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2015, 08:29:19 PM »


Better not to be under law in the first place. Be under Grace. Then you won't have to worry about it. :)


Fred

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #146 on: May 14, 2015, 10:48:14 AM »
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>>>
So there are exceptions to the no divorce rule, and rightly, most Ministers of the Church have come to that same conclusion.
<<<

Sadly, in this one point, you are unquestionably correct! Not only Ministers, but most "professing" Christians too. But, a tree is known by its fruits.

You bring up the command not to divorce as if that can only have one meaning. Scripture tells us that it may mean that is the ideal, but there are exceptions. You can't think that you are the end all and last word in marriage and divorce.

lpowell

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #147 on: May 14, 2015, 09:34:47 PM »
God always has the last word.  And here at the end of the Old Testament he says with no conditions:

Malachi 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

Why does man want divorce?  To cover over a multitude of sins, usually in both the husband and wife.  Thus divorce is a just another attempt at outward righteousness like Adam's fig leaves.  And it is corruptible, not solving anything permanently.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Do you remember the root of the reason by which Christ could put away that law of divorce given by Moses?  It was given so that the Israelites with hard hearts, defiled by foreign wives, could put them away, Ezra 9, Mat 19:8.  And even before that, so that God could divorce Israel, sending her into captivity for her whoredom.
   Well, with the cross, the gospel was to go to all peoples.  And as a result, Peter learned that no man or woman was to be called unclean, Acts 10:28, 1 Cor 7:14.  And with the work of propitiation completed, Christ' marriage to the eternal bride is permanent.   He can't divorce His wife and no spouse needs to be divorced for being unclean.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

   If we have all things in Christ. there is no longer any need for His new creation to lust for another.

Lloyd



Tony Warren

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #148 on: May 17, 2015, 12:33:33 PM »
>>>
You bring up the command not to divorce as if that can only have one meaning. Scripture tells us that it may mean that is the ideal, but there are exceptions.
<<<

I bring up the command not to divorce as if that can only have one meaning, but it's just an ideal?

Here's some dictionary meanings of the word ideal.

1. a person or thing conceived as embodying conforming to a standard
2. something exactly right for a particular purpose, situation, or person
3. that which is taken as a model for imitation
4. something in its absolute perfection
5. the ultimate standard for excellence


Yes, I'd say God's command not to divorce is the standard we are told to conform to. You do know that not committing rape is the ideal God has established for His people? Does that mean that we can violate God's law and rape under certain circumstances because we don't want to keep the ideal? And of course, that's a foolish question because it's contrived, just as the one where you say I bring up the command not to divorce as if that can only have one meaning, but it's just an ideal." Not stealing is the Christian ideal. Not having an abortion is the Christian ideal. Everything that is not sin, is the Christian ideal. Your justification of sin as just not reaching the ideal, notwithstanding.

There are no grey areas, the ideal "IS" what God commands. He doesn't say do the best you can and if you succumb to the flesh, that's OK. He says sin not! He doesn't say see if you can stay married, and if not you are free to divorce. On the contrary, He says that's the wife of your Covenant or Promise and she is bound to you so long as you live, not merely bound until you see fit to pull it asunder. We understand that if the commands of Scripture have more than one meaning depending upon who is reading them, then they have no meaning at all. God is immutable. He doesn't hate divorce for one and love it for another. Whatsoever the Lord hates, by definition, is sin. All rationalizations notwithstanding, divorce is sin any way you cut it.


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>>>
You can't think that you are the end all and last word in marriage and divorce.
<<<

You're right, I can't and I don't. But God's Word is, and that is what the liberals are really arguing against. Not my witness of the Word, but the Word itself. God's Word (which they don't like) grates upon them because they have their own ideas, which God calls the imaginations of their own hearts. Of course, professing Christians will never admit it, but it's really just an attempt to (by any means necessary) circumvent God's Word with the words of men in order to justify their wants, needs and beliefs. But God is not ambiguous when it comes to how He feels about divorce.

Malachi 2:16
  • "For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:

That's God's Word, and it is the last word in divorce. He instituted the promise of marriage by a man and woman cleaving together and He hates divorce, no exceptions.

Romans 7:2
  • "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."

The last word from God is that people are married as long as they live.  It is man who adds the addendum that "it ain't necessarily so."

1st Corinthians 7:39
  • "The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord."

The end all on divorce is from God's Word not mine, and His Word is that marriage is a Covenant/Oath/Promise that binds two together as long as they live, which means until one of them is dead. No other exceptions. So you're not arguing with me, but with God. Is it really His precept that man doesn't really particularly like?

  Truth inspires change.

"nosce te ipsum"
Tony Warren

"Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? -Malachi 2:17"
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Tony Warren

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Re: Marriage And Divorce
« Reply #149 on: May 17, 2015, 12:46:36 PM »
>>>
If you actually "loved" in the Christian sense you would hear God's commandments about divorce and obey -

I don't know, but in Christian doctrine isn't love supposed to be seasoned by grace, compassion and benevolence?
<<<

Maurice,
  Seriously, what agnostics know of Christian doctrine could fit on the head of a pin. All they know, by their own admission, is that they don't know. The fact is, Christian doctrine is seasoned with grace, compassion and benevolence, but not as unbelievers, secular authorities and agnostics define the word. The diverse definitions are like apples and oranges. In Christ, compassion is not allowance, approval or compromise, it's a earnest desire for man's deliverance, it's the preaching of the gospel in the midst of reviling and persecutions, it's taking up the cross and following Christ. That's true compassion, not the act of attempting to justify man's sins. If any man ascribes anything of Christianity to provisional disobedience, necesarry evil, conditional allowances or contingent obedience, he knows nothing of true Christian grace, compassion or benevolence, and has an erroneous knowledge of Christ.

What John said is 100% true. If you actually "loved" in the Christian sense you would hear God's commandments about divorce, and have an earnest desire to obey. Now that's love of God.

John 14:21
  • "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
John 15:10
  • " If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
1st John 5:2
  • "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."
1st John 5:3
  • "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2nd John 1:6
  • "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

Do you see a "pattern there" by God illustrating what true Christian love, benevolence and charity is? Not as man defines it, but as God defines it.

"nosce te ipsum"
Tony Warren

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. -Revelation 3:18-19"
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