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Author Topic: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?  (Read 1764 times)

Chicago Bear

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2018, 02:29:33 PM »
Yes, that is the only hope of Israel. It's so sad that evangelicals keep the myth going about another hope, which is completely against God's word and another example of why no one should ever entertain going to a Premillennial church. It is the church of the false hope. Why would you do that to people who you are obligated to preach the true gospel of Christ to? So wrong.

"But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of. For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. Acts 28:19-20"

Paul never preach a false hope of Jewish tradition, but the only hope.
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Dan

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2018, 09:25:00 AM »
Paul never preach a false hope of Jewish tradition, but the only hope.

It's a anti-semitic slur to call the Jewish beliefs a false hope. The Jewish tradition is also the Christian tradition of seeing their kingdom restored with Christ ruling. I don't know where you get your theology but it isn't the historic Christianity that I love.

Exodus 19:6
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel".


George

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 11:38:24 AM »
Paul never preach a false hope of Jewish tradition, but the only hope.

It's a anti-semitic slur to call the Jewish beliefs a false hope.

Well that's amillennialism for you. It has long been charged by great theologians that amillennialism is anti-semitic.

Tony Warren

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2018, 10:05:45 AM »
>>>
It's a anti-semitic slur to call the Jewish beliefs a false hope.
<<<

So you're saying that Christ, the king and Messiah of the Jews, was anti-semitic because he saw their idea of Judaism as a false hope?

Luke 13:34-35
  • "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
  • Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

i.e., they have no hope of seeing Christ unless/until they confess Him as their blessed Savior. Either now, or standing before Him at the judgment throne.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2018, 10:46:06 AM »
>>>
4 Reasons Premillennialism Must Be True

by Dr. Michael J. Vlach
<<<

That article could just as easily be entitled, "Four Straw Men Supporting Premillennialism." Because it starts out with a faulty premise, and then sets out to support that premise by osmosis or the assimilation of selective passages through the non-biblical but permeable membrane of tradition, assumption, theory and earthly systems of interpretation--and then he boldly announces Premillennialism confirmed. If one starts out with a faulty hermeneutic and builds upon that unsound foundation, then of course that which is built will not stand the test of Scripture. It's foundationally unstable--which is as typical of Premillennial theology today as it was in the days of those denying Christ's very real Kingdom when He came to Israel over 2000 years ago. But let's examine briefly these alleged 4 reasons:


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First, Jesus, the last Adam, must successfully rule from and over the realm where the first Adam failed
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This is extrabiblical assumption. This first false premise is that Christ has to reign over a natural or earthly throne because the first man Adam failed. Where does scripture declare this? Obviously this is this man's supposition, not something that Scripture actually says. Adam was the natural man that came first, Christ as the second Adam is spiritual, and His great success was over something natural man couldn't overcome. ...Death.

1st Corinthians 15:42-47
  • "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
  • It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
  • It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
  • And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  • Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
  • The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

Clearly that supposition is fatally flawed, as God tells us unambiguously that while the first man was of the earth, earthy, the second man is Spiritual and from heaven.


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Second, there must be a sustained visible reign of Jesus in the realm (earth) where Jesus was rejected at His first coming
<<<

This second false premise is that there must be a visible earthly kingdom reign. Not only is it false, it blatantly contradicts Christ's own words concerning the nature of His kingdom.

Luke 17:20-21
  • "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  • Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

The Pharisees, looking for the same type of earthly kingdom as the Premillennialists, inquires of the Lord when this kingdom will come. Christ again unambiguously corrects them and denies that His kingdom, and thus his reign, is earthly. He says His kingdom is not going to be beheld. It's not a kingdom where you can place it over there in the earthly city of Jerusalem or over here in the city of Bethlehem, it cannot be physically observed because it is a spiritual Kingdom that is within the believer. You can't observe it physically on earth, you know it by His Spirit within you. The kingdom of Christ is within us when we have His Holy Spirit within us. It doesn't come with outwardly observation, with pomp and splendor which men would see or gaze upon its splendor. It's within us.

John 18:36
  • "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."


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Third, there must be a reward and vindication of the saints in the realm where they were persecuted.
<<<

The third false premise is yet another extrabiblical speculation. Our reward and vindication was secured by the death and first resurrection of Christ and is fully realized in the second coming at the second resurrection. Not on earth, but in a kingdom that cannot be moved. And our reward is not earthly or of a carnal nature, it is revealed at the real throne of God. Our vindication and reward is in the very same realm where Christ reigns. We don't have to be rewarded where we were persecuted, that's a unbiblical assertion.

Luke 6:22-23
  • "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
  • Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

the natural man hates the saint on earth, but our reward is great and our vindication is full, in the kingdom of heaven, not on earth.


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Fourth, there must be a period when all yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecies and promises will be literally fulfilled
<<<

The fourth false premise is that all cannot be fulfilled at Christ's second coming unless He reigns on earth. Once again, that is not only untrue, it shows a lack of understanding of prophesy. Christ clearly already has a kingdom, comforted and brought peace to Jerusalem, freed its prisoners, and the saints already reign with him and execute his will on earth, as it is in heaven.

Matthew 16:19
  • "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Literally in the text, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven." We already reign with Christ on earth, and we already have the key or authority of the Kingdom of heaven wherein we execute His will on earth. It is through the Holy Spirit within us to the preaching of the gospel. Moreover, Christ said that the generation or family of evil will not pass until all is fulfilled. There is no second or third resurrection or earthly reign by Christ necessary. Because the prophets didn't prophesy of a literal earthly reign anymore than they prophesied of a Branch, Literal Shepherd, literal Wolves or literal Elijah coming before Christ.

Matthew 13:35
  • "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

The problem is, not all will understand the parables because it remains as much a secret to them as the abomination of Desolation does.

Isaiah 66:12-13
  • "For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
  • As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


 

Tony Warren

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2018, 11:52:22 AM »
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can a Christian join a premillennial church for fellowship...
<<<

Do you mean can or should? If you mean "can," then of course the answer is yes. Professing Christians both can and have done everything under the sun, including becoming lost in the Premillennial labyrinth of doubletalk. If you mean "should," then my position would be a unapologetic NO. They should absolutely not join a church that teaches the Premillennial false narrative of Christian eschatology, including the resurrection, end times, the kingdom and reign of Christ. The reason is simply because you would be learning under a church preaching a fictional account concerning Christ's present reality, the nature of His coming, revelation, chosen, reign and kingdom. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Colossians 2:8
  • "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Not just philosophy, because honorable and biblically sound philosophy is an advantage to our reason. But unibiblical worldly philosophy, which is to say the imaginations of man's heart. In my view Premillennialism, and particularly Dispensational Premillennialism, spoils or brings the church into captivity through these philosophies about God's word built upon the rudiments (or organization) of worldly ideas. God here is warning the church that they should be aware that there will be those who will come seeking to spoil (take or ensnare) them through means of worldly philosophies and ideas. This would include worldly ideas of political nations, armies, kingdoms, lands, rules and resurrections. It is this "man exalting" philosophies in the rudiments (organizations or arragements) of the world that is being warned against. The world's philosophy is vain because it is empty, not predicated upon the substantive Spirit and will of the Lord, but upon man's own barren and selfish spirit and will. End time theologies organized after the methodology of the world are after the vain imaginations of man's heart. They are formed from the the doctrines of men, and not after Christ. Teachings of the rise and fall of political nations, of multiple future resurrections, of physical millenniums, golden ages, Holy cities and earthly righteousness is the type of false doctrine that God warns us to "beware" of. These worldly philosophies and ideas in the traditions of Old Testament Israel, are inherently dishonest and deceitful. The vanity of this philosophy the Apostle speaks to refers to its fruitless or futile hope.

The fact is, there is no Premillennial physical reign and kingdom, there is only the reality of the Spiritual Kingdom, which (unlike the physical) cannot be overcome, shaken or moved. The professing Christians who believe this are simply chasing a ghost or a earthly Valhalla that is impossible to realize because it doesn't exist. Our paradise is very literal and very real, as opposed to the fable of a literal earth bound reign.

Hebrews 12:28
  • "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

Christ's kingdom is not of this world where it comes by man's physical observation (Luke 17:20-21), or by the law and tradition of the Jews, or by the rudiments of this world. The Kingdom of Christ is received by God's chosen people as not earthly, not of this world, nor that can be seen "except" with spiritual eyes. There isn't any Premillennial-rapture before His millennial reign, for He has ascended to His kingdom and His reign is now. The wheat and tares remain "together" on this sin cursed earth until the end when there will be a final resurrection. Premillennialism is incompatible with both Christianity and the Bible. Thus why would a Bible Believing Christian want to join such a congregation?


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even if he doesn't believe the premillennial view is correct?
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If a Christian believes that the teaching of Premillennialism is not true (euphamistical word for False), then why would he want to join with that Premillennial congregation assenting to its false beliefs of the nature of God's kingdom? I would hope his non-belief in that system would be what would keep him from becoming a part of that "body," rather than a cause for his inclusion.

Jamess 3:11-12
  • "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
  • Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh."

Using this criterea, can one teaching there are two different Kingdoms of Christ, contrary to the Bible's plain teaching there is but one, be compatible? Wouldn't our question be, where does God's word teach such multiple Kingdoms or future resurrections. This is contrary to God's teaching that Christ has already come to reign, already bound Satan in this present golden age wherein the Gentiles/Nations are not deceived and are brought into Israel. Can you by the Spirit of truth get both the truth of Scripture saying a thousand year "physical" premillennial reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth, to agree with the Scriptural truth of a thousand year "spiritual" amillennial reign of Christ? Isn't the binding of Satan at the cross a integral teaching of Christ's present reign and kingdom so that the elect Gentiles might not be deceived but saved? Isn't one view a contradiction, affront and offense to the doctrine of the other as the truth of God's word? When Christ said He came to establish a kingdom and the Judaizers believed Israel's Messiah had not come and there was no kingdom as yet, could they all worship the same God in the same congregation simply because they both believed in a messiah and one (allegedly) simply had the timing wrong? Or in truth, was their lack of belief of the truth and lack of understanding of the kingdom "evidence" of their lack of revelation and continuing blindness? Evidence of their lack of the Spirit of truth? Evidence that God, according to His own will and purposes, had not "revealed" truth to them? I say that to say that it's easy for human beings to say someone's fundamental lack of knowledge of truth is just a honest misjudging or misunderstanding, but God tries the heart and He is sovereign over who understands and who receives the truth concerning the establishment of His Kingdom. As He was with those of Israel who understood, and those of Israel who rejected Spiritual truth for the security blanket of a physical kingdom. Something to consider. While we were all spiritually blind before we were saved, not one of us had an excuse for our obstinacy.


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Say there is no other good churches in the area...
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There is always a church in any area because where two or three are gathered in Christ's name, He is there in the midst of them making that His congregation or assembly of saints. Making that a house of prayer, His dwelling place, a place of beseeching and exhorting one another. In modern times many have come to believe that a building is the definition of the church, when the early church met in squares, in peoples homes or in courtyards. They were still the church. Today we can assemble in nice church building, or in a barn, in the living rooms of our houses or even in a internet forum or cafe. The early church had no such luxuries as a million dollar church building, and yet they were no less the church of Christ to beseech, pray or worship the Lord.

Matthew 18:19-20
  • "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
  • For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Our Lord had been addressing the topic of church meetings in which the obstinance of a brother was to be brought, and in this context God gives us the true definition of what He defines as the church or its lawful assembly. i.e., a building does not a church make. The people who are assembled or gathered together in His name make a church. So when you say may one go to a Premillennial church because there are no good churches in the area, I say no. Find or make one, for where two or three are gathered together in Christ's name, there is He in the midst of that assembly. The assembly is the dwelling place of God.


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 my Christian friends use this quote, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."
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That saying has been going around for a long time. But in my view it is a well oiled myth in reference to the teaching of the nature of the kingdom of Christ being a non-essential. At its very core, eschatology is the doctrine of the last or final things concerning the Kingdom and end time events. Doctrines concerning the very form and nature of both the present and delivered kingdom of Christ, resurrections, judgments and apostasy. To look at it as a non-essential is like saying the nature of Israel, rebuilding, election, kingdom and reign of Christ isn't important. In my view the teaching of the nature of God's kingdom is about as essential as it can get. Lest we forget, it was the lack of understanding of the prophesy of the Messiah and the true nature of His kingdom, rule and reign was the downfall of national Israel. Selah. Like the Premillennarian, they also looked for a earth based Christ, restoration of a physical nation, EARTHLY reign and rule in physical Israel. And like most Premillennarians they also thought genealogy was A factor in determining God's special people. Proving yet again what the Preacher said. "...There is nothing new under the sun,"

No one "continually" rejects truth by accident, they reject it because they are by nature not open to it, not enlightened, making them an adversary to it. Remember, all children of God (bar None) have the Holy Spirit of truth. So when professing Christians are "continually" rejecting truth out of hand, we can pray for them and ask for their enlightenment, but we can't endear truth to them.

2nd Timothy 2:25-26
  • "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
  • And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

That is not to say there are no saved people in a Premillennial church, I don't know that and I leave such judgments to God. It is merely to say that non-essentials falls into the category of whether we should baptize by sprinkling versus a cup of water, versus a bath of water. The category of communion once a week, versus once a month, versus once a year. The category of celebrating the birth of Christ on a special day called Christmas, versus not celebrating His birth on that day, versus celebrating His birth but without gifts or a tree. Those are non-essentials with which we can have unity, liberty and charity. But it is certainly not how we view the nature of God's people, millennial reign or the Kingdom of Christ.  In my book (the Bible), that is essential to me. The difference between teaching a false kingdom of Christ that doesn't (and will never) exist, and the true Kingdom that the Bible "plainly" describes. ...to those given eyes to read of it and ears to hear of it.

Judgmental? Yes, because with giving us the kingdom, the Lord also gave us judgment (Isaiah 59:1415l; Revelation 20:4) in the form of His unadulterated word.


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They say eschatology is not a essential and shouldn't preclude joining a church. Can I get some feedback on this?
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The proverbial "they" say a lot of things, including that the preaching of a physical return to the earth off Christ before (or Pre) the Millennium, ushering in a literal thousand-year golden age of peace. Things that the Bible absolutely not only does not say, but is contrary to the nature of His Kingdom, age and reign. It is nothing less than Old Testament Jewish idea of Judaism encorporated into New Testament Christianity. A doctrine that is built upon Jewish dreams of a earthly restoration and holy city.

Titus 1:14
  • "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

It is the inherent characteristic of Premillennialism that it turns the church away from the truth through vain ideas of Jewish dreams of glory. The same thing the Apostle talks about in 1st Timothy chapter 1. I would not join a church that preaches falsely that Christ hasn't yet restored Israel, or that people are Jews based on genealogy, or that Christ must come again to reign on this sin cursed earth for national Israel. That is what the apostle called Jewish fables (yarn, fiction, myth) or their traditions that turn from the truth. I would hardly think this as a non-essential.

1st Timothy 1:4-6
  • "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
  • Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
  • From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;"

These fables and endless genealogies were the Jewish traditions and philosophy that they were by birth (by genealogy) children of Abraham, children of God who could never fall, That of course was a myth that Christ Himself told them was not true. Yet this fable persists today in the doctrine of most of Premillennialism. A doctrine of a Premillennial reign and kingdom that doesn't actually exist. That's not a non-essential, that's essential for every Christian to know.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Can Christians Join a Premillennial Church?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2018, 12:14:04 PM »
>>>
Paul never preach a false hope of Jewish tradition, but the only hope.

It's a anti-semitic slur to call the Jewish beliefs a false hope.
<<<

Was the Apostle Paul anti-semitic in being sorrowful that His brethren the Jews were without hope without Christ? Or is that just another of your infamous "Straw Men?"

Romans 9:2-6
  • "That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
  • For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
  • Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
  • Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
  • Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

It is from here to the 11th chapter that Paul addresses the profound subject of God's people being the election. The Apostle doesn't mourn over the total loss of Israel, because he understands that this would be a contradiction and failure of God's promises to Abraham. He understands that not all that belong to the natural seed or nation of Israel, are the Israel of God's irrevocable promises and election. He mourns for those who are not elect and have rejected Christ, the "only" hope of Israel.


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The Jewish tradition is also the Christian tradition of seeing their kingdom restored with Christ ruling.
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Jewish tradition or Jewish fable? Tradition notwithstanding, the Kingdom has already been restored (Acts 15:16), Jerusalem has already been comforted (Isaiah 40:1-3), Christ already reigns over Israel (Revelation 20:4), the captivity has already been set free (Hebrews 2:15).

Ac 15:15-17
  • "And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
  • After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
  • That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

It is the remnant, the residue of the nation of Israel that is restored, along with what amounts to a remnant of the Gentiles. And when God has saved all He has elected from both, then all Israel shall be saved, just as it was written by the prophets. By Christ, the deliverer.


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 I don't know where you get your theology but it isn't the historic Christianity that I love.
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I get my theology from the pages of the Bible alone. Indeed it is historic Christianity, it's just not historic Judaism/Premillennialist tradition that Christ rebuked with at first advent. Their tradition was to look for a earthly King, a earthly Kingdom and a earthly reign from earthly Jerusalem. In a nutshell, Judaism/Premillennialism.


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Exodus 19:6
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel".
<<<

Fulfilled.

Peter 2:9-10
  • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
  • Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

Who is the Royal or Kingdom of Priests? What is this holy nation? Who is this special or peculiar people of Israel? According to Peter chapter 2, it is the church. Jews and Gentiles made the children of Israel, through Christ Jesus.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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