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Author Topic: Duty-faith  (Read 318 times)

laurenp

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Duty-faith
« on: July 12, 2018, 12:12:23 AM »
I hear many people (hyper-calvinists etc) preach against the duty of all men to believe, specifically in light of election etc. But in reading an article of AW Pink about it, he said something that made some sense to me. Firstly, as it's stated that all men are commanded to repent, then it must equally be true of them to believe on Christ for their salvation - since faith and repentance go hand in hand. Secondly, that if it is not a duty of all men (including reprobate) to believe on Christ for their salvation - then it would be no sin in failing to do so. Basically unbelief would be no sin, if belief is not required of them. 

But the other side makes sense too- how can one presume to believe that Christ loves them or died for them unless they know they're elect?

I guess a much simpler question- is "duty-faith" supported in the Bible? Does God require in his law that not only the elect believe on him for their salvation, but reprobate too? To note, I'm not asking if God desires their salvation or anything like that. Only if ALL men are required by God to believe He died for their sins, even those whose sins He did not die for?

Thanks.

Stephanie

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2018, 01:27:08 AM »
 )goodquestion(

aquatic

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2018, 06:33:48 AM »
I believe so.

 Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Read the chapter for context.

Reformer

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2018, 12:23:18 PM »
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

We are commanded to give repentance for our sins, but not all will because faith is a merciful gift of God. Just like the Israelites who died because of their unbelief, or to put it another way, their lack of belief.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

They never had the faith of Christ and so they remained in bondage to sin. I believe it is a duty to believe, but "saving" belief is something none of us can muster on our own. Because those Israelites to whom the gospel was first preached didn't enter into the promised land because they did not believe. The Jews, who in the time of Moses first had salvation preached to them, hardened their heats to saving faith.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

In other words, they did not enter in because they did not believe. So God must require belief to enter in, and that means it's man's duty (a requirement) to believe, or else he cannot enter in. Just as God requires righteousness, but none of us on our own can muster this righteousness of faith, so God mercifully supplied it for us.

Trevor

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2018, 08:40:11 AM »
I hear many people (hyper-calvinists etc) preach against the duty of all men to believe, specifically in light of election etc.

You don't have to be hyper-calvinist to believe that it is man's duty to believe. I believe that sincerely and I'm not even a Calvinist at all. If it wasn't our duty, then why would one be judged for unbelief.

Romans 11:20
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"


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But in reading an article of AW Pink about it, he said something that made some sense to me. Firstly, as it's stated that all men are commanded to repent, then it must equally be true of them to believe on Christ for their salvation

Yes, because you can't repent unto salvation without belief. Or else it's just the same repentance that all unsaved people have. A repentance in feeling sorry that they did something. That's not true Godly repentance.

Hebrews 12:17
"For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

God calls for repentance unto salvation, not worldly repentance. Therefore if God calls for it, then it is belief unto salvation that he calls for. Faith and true repentance go hand in hand. It's their duty to repent unto belief, but without God they fall short every time.


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Secondly, that if it is not a duty of all men (including reprobate) to believe on Christ for their salvation - then it would be no sin in failing to do so. Basically unbelief would be no sin, if belief is not required of them. 

Makes perfect sense.


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But the other side makes sense too- how can one presume to believe that Christ loves them or died for them unless they know they're elect?

But it's not about knowing, it's about what is commanded of you by God. The fool says in his heart that there is no God, but because he doesn't know, does that absolve him from responsibility to believe on God? He has a responsibility to know.

Romans 1:20-21
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

There are no excuses for unbelief, it should be known to all they must believe, their ignorance not being an excuse.


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I guess a much simpler question- is "duty-faith" supported in the Bible? Does God require in his law that not only the elect believe on him for their salvation, but reprobate too?

When God commands all to obedience and to not sin, that automatically makes it a duty. A commandment is not a suggestion. When God says there is no excuse for unbelief, he is saying all have a inherent duty to believe.


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I'm not asking if God desires their salvation or anything like that. Only if ALL men are required by God to believe He died for their sins, even those whose sins He did not die for?

The gospel is to one a sword and to another nourishing bread. The reason it is a sword to one is because it cuts them (brings judgment) when they hear it because they are in rebellion to their duty to believe it.  It's like the stone the builders rejected. To one it is the foundation of the church, to another it falls upon them and grinds them to powder. Because they knew not the hour of their visitation, and they had a duty to know.
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Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
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savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2018, 11:26:39 AM »
quote

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, that if it is not a duty of all men (including reprobate) to believe on Christ for their salvation - then it would be no sin in failing to do so. Basically unbelief would be no sin, if belief is not required of them. 

The reprobate arent required by God to believe on Christ for their Salvation, thats a contradiction, however they should believe Gods word about Christ and how He saves sinners, when they dont, they make God a liar by not believing Gods record abut His Son 1 Jn 5:10

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So the sin of the reprobate is not believing Gods witness which is calling God a Liar, has nothing to do with their salvation.

Trevor

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2018, 06:36:20 AM »
quote

Quote
, that if it is not a duty of all men (including reprobate) to believe on Christ for their salvation - then it would be no sin in failing to do so. Basically unbelief would be no sin, if belief is not required of them. 

The reprobate arent required by God to believe on Christ for their Salvation, thats a contradiction,

I'm not understanding how that is a contradiction. Why did the children of Israel die in the wilderness because of unbelief? Because of unbelief. Belief was a requirement. The same with Israel when Christ died.

Romans 11:20
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

Why were they broken off? Because of unbelief. If they believed, they would not have been broken off. So it stands to reason belief was required.


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however they should believe Gods word about Christ and how He saves sinners, when they dont, they make God a liar by not believing Gods record abut His Son 1 Jn 5:10

If they make God a liar by not believing, then belief is required to not make God a liar. Without belief, salvation is impossible, therefore it is a requirement.

Hebrews 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


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So the sin of the reprobate is not believing Gods witness which is calling God a Liar,

I agree. If the sin of the reprobate is not believing, then by your own words not believing is a sin. Doesn't that make belief a requirement, since not believing is sin, and God judges all sin?


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has nothing to do with their salvation.

I think it depends upon how you look at it. Salvation is to all who believe. You just said that the sin of the reprobate is not believing Gods witness (making him a liar), therefore I believe it has everything to do with salvation. Unbelief means unsaved or no salvation because of sin. The requirement is belief.
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Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
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laurenp

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2018, 11:25:24 AM »
Trevor I think what they're saying is that it's a sin to disbelieve God's truth of salvation, or the whole truth of word, etc, because that is required of reprobates. But they are not required to believe God died for *them* because it would be believing a lie. I think that's what savedbysovereignrace said? And that's what my question revolves around. Does God demand people whom He did *not* die for to believe He died for them? That's the argument against duty faith I've heard. They are allowed to believe the gospel (that Christ died for the elect) but not believe it about themselves, because that would be a lie to believe. I believe this is what savedbysovereigngrace and others have said? Correct me if I'm wrong,

Trevor

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 12:34:47 PM »
Trevor I think what they're saying is that it's a sin to disbelieve God's truth of salvation, or the whole truth of word, etc, because that is required of reprobates. But they are not required to believe God died for *them* because it would be believing a lie.

If they don't have true belief, then God didn't die for them and the question is moot. But you just repeated that it is a sin to disbelieve God's truth of salvation. That means belief that he is the truth of salvation, is a requirement. Or else disbelief would not be a sin in any way. Since you admit disbelief is a sin, and Christ is the word of truth, unbelief has to be a sin, making belief a requirement. Are we splitting hairs or are we saying opposite things?


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And that's what my question revolves around. Does God demand people whom He did *not* die for to believe He died for them?

Yes. And they never will. Just as God demands they all be obedient to His word, and they never will. God commands man not to murder, but that doesn't stop man from murdering. It's all the same principle. God commands belief, but none will believe. Not even you and I. Therefore, God had to take it upon himself to make us believe. Though God commanded it, our faith and belief didn't come from us, He gave it to us. It is a gift so that we not die because of our unbelief.

Mark 9:24
"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."


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They are allowed to believe the gospel (that Christ died for the elect) but not believe it about themselves, because that would be a lie to believe.

If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't believe that. I have heard thousands of professing Christians in false gospels who believe sincerely and incorrectly that Christ died for them. Even that they were elect and doing God service, but it's not true.  It's not that it's a lie because they believe, it's that they are lying to themselves and their belief or faith is not saving faith. It's a intellectual false belief based on emotion rather than a spiritual regeneration. For example.

Luke 8:13
"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

They didn't believe for a while and then become non elect, making God's word of salvation to those who believe a lie. They had a temporal false belief, not saving belief, and they had carnal faith not saving faith. So none of this makes God's promises a lie. Even the people who crucified Christ professed faith, love of God and belief, but it wasn't true. The belief that was required, that could only come through Christ, they didn't have.
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Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
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Tra Millwood

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 03:41:13 PM »
Interesting thread. I think you all have the same building, but you are divided on the type of bricks.

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2018, 04:41:17 AM »
Trevor

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I'm not understanding how that is a contradiction. Why did the children of Israel die in the wilderness because of unbelief? Because of unbelief. Belief was a requirement. The same with Israel when Christ died.

Romans 11:20
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"

Why were they broken off? Because of unbelief. If they believed, they would not have been broken off. So it stands to reason belief was required.

Easily a contradiction. God isnt going to require men to believe on Christ for Salvation when Christ didnt die for their sins . That would be requiring them to believe a lie.

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 04:48:47 AM »
Trevor

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If they make God a liar by not believing, then belief is required to not make God a liar. Without belief, salvation is impossible, therefore it is a requirement.

Making God a liar has nothing to do with a persons Salvation. One makes God a liar simply by not believing Gods record He has given of His Son 1 Jn 5:10

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Duty-faith
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 04:54:12 AM »
trevor

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I agree. If the sin of the reprobate is not believing, then by your own words not believing is a sin. Doesn't that make belief a requirement, since not believing is sin, and God judges all sin?

Yes, not believing Gods record of Christ, of His Person and Work and all that He accomplished in saving His People is a sin. Its merely one of the sins the reprobate will be judged for because Christ didnt die for their sins. Thats the consequences of not having a Saviour from ones sins.

 


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