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Author Topic: In What Year Was Christ Born?  (Read 1124 times)

Lieberman

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Re: In What Year Was Christ Born?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 05:41:30 AM »
King Herod died in 4 B.C. so how could Christ be born in 4 B.C.?

Shirley,
   Yes it does get confusing when you read all the contradictory articles around the web. It all depends on what you believe about the death of King Herod. If you believe he died in 4 BC then you will locate Christ's birth somewhere between 6 and 7 BC. But many people don't believe Herod died in 4 BC and so they can place Christ's birth some other time depending upon when they believe Herod died. So it's actually logical if their belief of Herod's death time is correct. If they are wrong, then yes it's ridiculous. It all depends on where they place Herod's death whether it's logical or not.

Now personally, from all that I have read on the subject, including articles about an earlier death date, I believe he died in 4 BC, and so I place Christ's birth somewhere between 6 and 7 BC. With a high probability of 7 BC because of time considerations. But that's just my opinion based upon my understanding of the secular evidence. I could be wrong, however I do not believe that I am. I believe it is more likely that they are wrong about the time of Herod's death.



Bruno Kolberg

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Re: In What Year Was Christ Born?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 08:29:59 AM »
It is certainly a contested subject among scholars:
http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/Eclipse1.pdf

Lieberman

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Re: In What Year Was Christ Born?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2018, 05:27:47 PM »
From all the evidence, Quinctillius Varus became governor of Syria in 6 BC, and we know that the acknowledged term was established at three years. Accordingly this time line puts him in position to suppress the revolts which broke out in 4 BC when King Herod the Great died.


Brian

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Re: In What Year Was Christ Born?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2018, 06:16:01 PM »
Another View:

When was Jesus Christ born? - September 21, 5 BC   Boris   12/25/15 6:43 AM

The New Testament contains the information which allows to find out real date of a birth of Jesus Christ. Many researchers tried to make it. I have own version. This version is stated in my book <<Astro-Biblos>> (Russia, St.Petersburg, 1996).
 Basing on facts that Zoroastrianism had influence on the Qumrans Scrolls of the Essenes (precursors of Christianity) and analyzing Gospels from this point of view, learning upon the ancient Zoroastrian calendar, I have established the real date of birth of Jesus Christ.
 He was born on 21st September 5 BC.

 There are sound reasons for believing that the Incarnation occurred near 5 BC. The first of these is calendrical. In AD 533 the Scythian monk Dionysius Exiguius fixed the beginning of the New Era and thus our present system of year numbering by a process of back-dating, but he overlooked four years of the reign of Emperor Augustus. Secondly, Matthew and Luke agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem while Herod was King. The death of Herod is well dated to mid-March - end May 4 BC by its proximity to the lunar eclipse of 4 BC March 13, and early sources seem agreed that Jesus was born not long before Herod died.
 Of course, known versions of identification of the Star of Bethlehem with flashes of new stars or connections of the Jupiter and Saturn at last decade B.C. have been taken into account too. You can read about the Star of Bethlehem in <<Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society>>, 1977, v.18, p.443-449 (Clark, Parkinson, Stephenson. An Astronomical Re-Appraisal of the Star of Bethlehem - A Nova in 5 BC).

 1. The Star of Bethlehem
 Of the four Evangelists only Matthew (II, 2-12) mentions the appearance of a star in connection with the birth of Jesus Christ. If this event described by Matthew in his gospel was an actual celestial phenomenon then it would almost certainly be mentioned in the astronomical records of the Far East where, at that time, observational astronomy far surpassed that in the Middle East and Europe.
 
NEW STAR (NOVA) IN 5 BC
 English astronomers have accordingly examined the Far Eastern records for several years around this time. Between 10 BC and 13 AD they have found only two sightings of new stars (other named <<nova>>).
 The first sighting is recorded in the Astronomical Treatise of the History of the Former Han Dynasty (the Ch'ien-han-shu):
 <<Second year of Ch'ien-p'ing reign period, second month [5 BC March 10 - April 7], a hui-hsing appeared at Ch'ien-niu for over 70 days>>.
 The second sighting appears to have been made in Korea and is recorded in the History of the Three Kingdoms - Chronicle of Silla (Samguk Sagi):
 <<Fifty fourth year of Hyokkose Wang, second month, (day) chi-yu, a po-hsing appeared at Ho-ku>>.
 English astronomers made big work for identification of these Far Eastern and Korean terms to present astronomical terms. They write:
 <<The asterisms of Ch'ien-niu and Ho-ku are only some 20 degree apart and these two records could either both be referring to a single nova somewhere in the region between these asterisms in the spring of 5 BC or they could be referring to a nova in 5 BC and a separate comet\nova in the same part of the sky in 4 BC. One item in Matthew's account which may have a possible astronomical significans is the reference to the star's position being 'in the eastern sky'. The asterism Ch'ien-niu, centred 5 degree north of the ecliptic would rise 4.5 hours ahead of the Sun in 5 BC mid-March. A nova in the vicinity of Ch'ien-niu would be observable for an increasing period of a few hours each day prior to sunrise>>.
 Neither Matthew nor the Far Eastern texts contain any direct evidence on the brightness of the star, although the period of visibility of the Chinese object would tend to suggest a fairly bright object at maximum. Novae generally have a rapid rise to maximum light followed by a much slower decline. They have a small range in absolute magnitude but a wide range in apparent magnitude is observed because of the different distance involved. A nova observed to decay by at least five magnitudes in seventy days would be classed as fast or moderately fast, so such an object could justifiably be classed as a typical nova (new star, not comet).
 English astronomers explain, that the possibility of a bright object cannot be ruled out on the grounds that few people noticed it, for there are several later examples of super-novae (super-new star), e.g. that which produced the Crab nebula in AD 1054, which went unnoticed, or at least unrecorded outside of the Far East. In conclusions they write:
 <<The Star of Bethlehem was most likely to have been a bright nova (new star) recorded by the Chinese as appearing in the spring of 5 BC. The Korean report may be a complementary sighting of this nova or it may be referring to a separate event in the same part of the sky in 4 BC. In the Middle East at this time, only the most spectacular events would arouse sufficient interest to be recorded and we judge this star to have been in this category, thus making it one of the earliest instances where a 'new star' has been recorded outside of the Far East. Many authors have tried to fix the date of the birth of Jesus Christ from the date of the appearance of the star. As much contemporary information went unrecorded at this time a post facto association may well have arisen linking the birth with the star's appearance, rather than there being an inherent correlation. If there is such association then the birth probably took place within a year or so of the spring of 5 BC>>.
 THE CONJUNCTIONS OF SATURN AND JUPITER IN 7 BC
 Kepler suggested (in XVII century) that the star was nothing more than a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. This suggestion has been repeated by many subsequent authors.
 D.H.Clark, J.P.Parkinson and F.R.Stephenson in 1977 have calculated the separation of Jupiter and Saturn for 7 BC and 6 BC and they have found that the conjunctions had a minimum separation of 1 degree. Thus it is clear that the conjunctions in 7 BC were unspectacular, the planets never coming closer than approximately two apparent lunar diameters and so there is no possibility that the two planets could be close enough to appear to merge together to form a single, bright object.
 2. Wise men of Matthew's Gospel: Zoroastrian priests-astrologers
 However astrologers and magi (Persian astrologers) of those centuries (1st BC - 1st AD) well knew laws of movement of planets and very attentively traced their conjunctions. These supervision were necessary for them for prelegends of destinies of tsars. For example, there is well known the Babylonian cuneiform almanac, containing predictions for the dates of equinox, solstices, and eclipses as well as giving the zodiacal sign for the planets. They named the Jupiter <<Star of Kings>> and Saturn <<Planet of Israel>>. These planets incorporated in 7 BC in a zodiac sign of Pisces. This sign of the Zodiac is connected to secret events and religion. Hence, they could interpret this conjunction of the Jupiter and Saturn as a sign on a forthcoming birth of Tsar of Israel. Motives of secret and religion should accompany with this birth.
 The Persian mags (zoroastrians) were in those days the most known and knowing in the East. Almost all researchers of the New Testament agree that the Gospel of Matthew tells about three Persian mags - zoroastrians.
 Persian Zoroastrians attentively traced events in Palestine since in 539 BC the army of the Persian tsar Kir has entered Babylon. Tsar Kir has allowed to all peoples which have been violently lodged in Mesopotamia by the Babylon tsars, to return to own countries and to restore the temples. The Persian tsars during century after that issued decrees about restoration of Jerusalem and the Temple. After these events Jews began to concern with sympathy to the Persians and it has made their susceptible to influence of Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism was the state religion of the Persians. Tsar Kir has been glorified by <<the second Isaia>> (the Jewish prophet) as the Messiah. Zoroastrianism almost two centuries rendered the big influence on Qumran Community of Essenes (precursors of Christianity) up to evangelical events. In detail about influence of Zoroastrianism on a history and ideology of Qumran Community of Essenes it is possible to read in the book of Dr. Igor R. Tantlevskij <<The History and Ideology of the Qumran Community>> and in many other books.
 So, now we should not be surprise that the Persian astrologers (zoroastrians, <<Wise men from the East>>) came to Jerusalem in 5 BC. We can do not doubt, that in 7 BC they have calculated and observed a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn. However, as these conjunctions were not absolutely exact, this fact could be interpreted by them as a sign on the future birth of Tsar-Messian. According to legends, Moses was born approximately one year later after similar a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn.
 In general in an antiquity representation it was widely <<known>>, that at a birth of the great person in the sky the new bright star lights up. In <<FiveBook>> of Moses there is a direct indication on a kind of a heavenly sign which will appear at a birth of the Messiah; this is prophecy of Balaam: <<I see Him, but nowadays still is not present; I see Him, but not close. The star from Jacob ascends...>> (Numbers, 24:17).
 ***
 GOSPEL OF MATTHEW (II, 1-18)
 <<Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, Where is He that is born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and are come to worship Him. And when Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born. And they said unto him, in Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written through the prophet,
 And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah,
 Art in no wise least among the princes of Judah:
 For out of thee shall come forth a governor,
 Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.
 Then Herod privacy called the Wise-men, and learned of them exactly what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search out exactly concerning the young child; and when you have found Him, bring me word, that I also may come and worship Him. And they, having heard the king, went their way; and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. And when they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And they came into the house and saw the young Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshipped Him; and opening their treasures they offered unto Him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
 Now when they were departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young Child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I tell thee: for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him. And he arose and took the young Child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt; and was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt did I call my Son.
 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the Wise-men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the male children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the borders thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had exactly learned of the Wise-men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
 A voice was heard in Ramah,
 Weeping and great mourning,
 Rachel weeping for her children;
 And she would not be comforted, because they are not>>.
 ***
 <<... from two years old and under, according to the time which he had exactly learned of the Wise-men>>.
 Why Herod has ordered to kill all babies FROM TWO OLD AND UNDER?
 Now we understand, that Wise-men came in Jerusalem not earlier than spring of 5 BC and have told to him as about a heavenly sign of 7 BC (the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn), so and about a new star which has led up them to Jerusalem. Herod has ordered to kill all babies from two old and under <<just in case>>.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/herod.shtml :
 In the massacre of new born babies of Bethlehem so familiar to us through the Nativity story, King Herod is portrayed as a tyrant prepared to kill infants who could eventually challenge him.
 However the historical evidence for the event is only Biblical and in fact only one verse in Matthew mentions it. The event is notably absent from the other gospels.
 It seems difficult to imagine such a massacre was not mentioned by Josephus a first century historian who described other events in Herod's life. One could be a sceptical of Matthew's account of a massacre of infants.
 In fact, demographic clues from first century Palestine reveal that Bethlehem was a small village, with a population between three hundred and a thousand. Experts estimate that, at any given time, the number of babies under the age of two would be only between seven and twenty. So numbers alone may be the reason why Josephus does not mention the murders.
 ***
 Zoroastrian priest-astrologers (Wise-men) came in Jerusalem not earlier than spring of 5 BC. Whether we can specify the date of these events? Yes, we can. I shall remind, that English astronomers have precisely established heavenly coordinates of the Star of Bethlehem (new star): 7-th degree of zodiac sign Capricorn. Astronomical calculations confirm, that by spring of 5-th BC its bright light could be observed in Persia (and as a whole in the East) low above horizon, before sunrise. However, how this star could lead up them from Jerusalem to Bethlehem?
 << ... the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. And when they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy>>.
 Bethlehem it is located precisely on the south from Jerusalem, approximately at three o'clock walking from it. Simple astronomical calculations show, that the new star could be visible from Jerusalem in the south right after a sunset in the autumn of 5 BC, in September and October. This star ascended after a sunset and rose low above horizon right after a sunset and approximately in three hours this star disappeared (fell) for a line of horizon. In November this star ascended above horizon at late night and not on the south from Jerusalem, and in December this star ascended above horizon only in the afternoon. Thus, in December and the next months the star could not be visible at all.
 Hence, if Wise-men came in Jerusalem in September or in October of 5 BC, only in this case they could see in the evening (right after a sunset) in the sky precisely in the south the guiding star. Hence, they could go behind it on the south from Jerusalem and the star <<has led up>> them into Bethlehem and has gone down horizon (<<has stopped>>) above that house, where the young Child was.
 ***
 So, the Star of Bethlehem - new star - has flashed and shone before sunrise in the East in the spring of 5 BC during seventy days. Zoroastrian astrologers (also they were Zoroastrian priests) have apprehended this heavenly sign as the second sign of a soon birth of the Jewish Tsar-Messiah about which two years earlier there was announced to them also by a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in zodiac sign of Pisces (in 7 BC, May, October, December). According to legends, Moses was born approximately one year later after similar a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn. Wise-men waited for occurrence of the new star predicted by the Jewish prophets and they have seen this star a year and two - three months later, after December 7 BC. Probably, in the summer of 5 BC they start go to a way from Persia to Jerusalem (1500-2000 km) and arrive there in September or October of 5 BC. At this time of year the new star ascends in the evening after a sunset on a direction precisely on the south off Jerusalem (laws of heavenly mechanics).
 The further events are described in Gospel of Matthew. Probably, Wise-men have told Herod as about a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn, had a place two years ago, so and about flash of a new star. That is why Herod has ordered to kill in Bethlehem all babies FROM TWO YEARS OLD AND UNDER (7BC-5BC=2). Hardly pious zoroastrian priests could foresee this massacre.
 Evangelist Matthew is exact and any <<symbolism>> is not present in his story! All evangelists described real events. Only our ignorance or our disbelief prevents us to understand sometimes all power and the truth of the Gospels.

More details see in my brochure "Jesus Christ was born on 21 September 5 BC":
www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-was-born-September/dp/1492978221/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1451054369&sr=1-9

 


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