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Author Topic: Calvinism  (Read 1216 times)

Mila Ostrovsky

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2018, 10:16:48 AM »
>>>
Well yes, because it's unbiblical, unorthodox and wasn't even heard of until John Calvin.
<<<

Actually it's not Calvinism at all, it's orthodox (that is to say canonical, recognized, accepted, Biblical, authoritative) traditional Christian doctrine that has been delivered to the saints by God's word. It's not deemed authoritative because John Calvin said so, but because it is the faith and practice that was delivered to the saints and can be read word for word from the Scriptures. But as with every other doctrine, there are those who turn grace into debt, claim it's man's will instead of God's will, and attribute the genesis of God's doctrines to a 16th century man--with of course a little help from the church.

  )Bible-Red( )Goodpoint(   :iagree:

aquatic

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2018, 01:51:01 PM »

Oh I see. Skip this one. Verses you can't refute you don't want to deal with. I got it.

What verse did I skip? My whole reply was centered on Rev 22:17.

John 3:16 has been dealt with by Tony.

Here is one of the most simple verses that destroys your false belief:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.




da525382

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 09:20:21 PM »
Thank you all, esp. Tony, for these incredibly helpful posts!

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2018, 01:55:20 PM »
Quote
I guess it's authoritative except when it contradicts your point of view. But if you don'rt like that scripture, how about this one.  John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Which world, Drew? Read the next verse:

Joh 3:17
[17]  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Mat 1:21
[21]  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Obviously not for everyone in the world!

Good post. I think most people when they see the word world in scripture like in Jn 3:16-17 they automatically assume it means everyone without exception. Thats a mistake though the word world in scripture rarely means that.

Betty

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 03:47:06 PM »
Why Not? When I see John 16 and 1 I take it for what it's worth.

John 3:16-17
For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to be judge of the world; he sent him so that the world might have salvation through him.

What I ask of you reformed people reading these verses what does it mean, you just claim it means "not all the world" when it says all the world. Yet you want me to think you take the word seriously.


Tony Warren

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2018, 10:42:05 PM »
>>>
Why Not? When I see John 16 and 1 I take it for what it's worth.
<<<

John 3:16
  • "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

savedbysovereigngrace is correct. The basic flaw in your assumption that the word "world" in John 3:16 must mean every single person in the world without exception is illustrated when we compare scripture with scripture and see how God uses this word in other places in the same context. When we do that we see that God is speaking of all the world who are loved of God, NOT every single person in the world without exception. A good example of the proper understanding of this word (in context) is is found in the first chapter of John:

John 1:29
  • "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It is self-evident (in any Biblical thinking) that Christ did not take away the sin of everyone in the world without exception. Else, no one in the world would have any sin, and thus everyone in the world would have become saved (Universalism). So any educated Biblical view of the love of God for the world, as pertaining to everyone without exception is clearly untenable. Christ didn't come to take away the sins of everyone in the world without exception, He came to take away the sins of everyone in the world without distinction. Israelites, Romans, Greeks, Ethiopians, etc. He came that all nations, kindreds and people in the world (Romans 16:26) might find salvation. Christ by His death took away the sins of all "His People" in the world, but certainly not all. As in fact is illustrated again in John 17:

John 17:9
  • "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Here again, why would Christ not pray for the world IF He came to take away the sins of the world, if the world there meant everyone. Obviously it doesn't. Unambiguously Christ distinguishes between those of the world which He is not making intercession for, and those in the world whom God had given Him. The word world is used here to describe all in the world who are not elect of God, not all men in the world without exception. Again, unambiguously the word world here in this context is used to describe everyone 'except' the elect. Not every single person in the entire world. When Jesus says 'I pray not for the world,' it is not saying He doesn't pray for one single person in the world, but is using the world to refer to only the non-elect of the world--the ones whom God so loved He gave His life for.

1st John 4:19
  • "We love him, because he first loved us."

All these God appointed are the world that God so loved, that He gave His only begotten son for. Not all without exception. Again:

1st John 3:1
  • "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."

The world doesn't know these elect. The word "world" here doesn't mean everyone in the world didn't know them or us. It refers to the non-elect of the world only. Moreover, Christ does not 'know' the whole world in this sense either, thus it would be impossible for Him to be saying He bestows this love upon
that whole world without exception. Whom He knows, He loves (1st Corinthians 8:3).  He bestowed this love upon all the elect in the world without distinction, not all the world without exception. Thus we understand that when Jesus speaks of the world He loves (in John 3:16), it is not everyone in the world. He gave His only begotten son not for everyone without exception, but for His people (Matthew 1:21). When He sent the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, it was Christ who took away the sins of the elect in the world. For God does not love the world, He is at enmity with the world, as is illustrated in verse after verse of scripture. God says Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated. There we have the word love contrasted with the word hated, meaning that one of these men God didn't love. Even if some were to twist the word "hated" (as people often do), it is still used in contrast to loved--meaning God didn't love Esau. How then can we in good conscience declare that God loved everyone in the world without exception, without contradicting His word? There would be no contrast between His love for Jacob and Esau. There are two types of people in the world, those God loves and those God hates. The unsaved world and the Saved world. Same as in Romans 11:

Romans 11:15a
  • "if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world..."

Here, in this verse, we have the same usage of this word world to refer to a segment of people, not all people in the world. If the casting away of Israel was the reconciling of the world, then clearly the world is seen here not to mean everyone in the world, but only those of the world who come to be reconciled with Christ. Likewise, John 3:16 is simply illustrating that the world which God Loved is the world God sent His son to redeem.

"They shall call His name Jesus for He shall Save His people from their sins." Those He loved are His people of the world under the effectual calling of God and are the only ones redeemed by the death of Christ. For it is evident the world (if that includes all in the world) were never loved by God, nor did Christ shed His blood in vain for anyone in the world. Therefore an understanding of the word 'world' in the all inclusive sense is found untenable. At least from a sound, scholarly and Biblical perspective.

The wicked are not part of 'the world of John 3:16.' Selah.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Herman Stowe

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2018, 12:02:10 AM »
John 1:29
  • "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It is self-evident (in any Biblical thinking) that Christ did not take away the sin of everyone in the world without exception. Else, no one in the world would have any sin, and thus everyone in the world would have become saved (Universalism).

 )Bible-Red( Well said. You can't be condemned if you have no sin.  ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2018, 05:00:22 AM »
Betty

Quote
when it says all the world.

It doesnt say "all the world"

Jn 3:16-17 says the world

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The word world kosmos means:


I.an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government


II.ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3


III.the world, the universe


IV.the circle of the earth, the earth


V.the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family


VI.the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ


VII.world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

A.the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ



VIII.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

A.the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Most people dont realize that the word means "any aggregate or general collection of particulars af any sort, for example the collection of Christ's Sheep, thats a world. Jesus in Jn 10 speaks about the collection of His Sheep Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

or the gathering/collection of all the Children of God Jn 11:52

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

I believe the children of God here are the same ones as the sheep in Chapter 10

So I believe thats the world referred to in Jn 3:16, the world of Gods Sheep or the world of the children of God.

Dan

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 06:48:53 AM »

John 1:29
  • "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It is self-evident (in any Biblical thinking) that Christ did not take away the sin of everyone in the world without exception.

That makes no sense Tony. It says he did.

Dan

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 06:50:10 AM »
Betty

Quote
when it says all the world.

It doesnt say "all the world"


It does if you don't read one verse in a vacuum.

I Timothy 2:3-4
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now that says all, does it not?

Dan

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2018, 06:51:38 AM »

 )Bible-Red( Well said. You can't be condemned if you have no sin.  ]ThUmBsUp[ ]ThUmBsUp[

You can if you sin again.

Christopher Henson

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2018, 01:02:57 PM »

John 1:29
  • "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It is self-evident (in any Biblical thinking) that Christ did not take away the sin of everyone in the world without exception.

That makes no sense Tony. It says he did.

It makes perfect sense. If he took away the sins of Judas, then why is Judas condemned and a son of perdition? That's what makes no sense. It makes no sense that he took away their sins, and yet they died in their sins. I will never understand how the Arminian thinks.

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2018, 01:06:39 PM »
Tony

Quote
John 1:29
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It is self-evident (in any Biblical thinking) that Christ did not take away the sin of everyone in the world without exception.

Absolutely correct, since its a fact that some shall die i their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Now those Christ died for and took away their sins, have no sins to die in.

So they that shall die in their sins, cant be connected to the world of Jn 1:29

Roger Dodson

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 01:42:40 PM »
 :amen: Good Points!

savedbysovereigngrace99

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2018, 10:59:37 AM »
Hi Roger. Did you read post 22 ? Did you understand the point I was making with the word world ?

 


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