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Author Topic: Predestination  (Read 1357 times)

Joe Johnson

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2020, 02:12:05 AM »
)Goodpoint(  If one doesn't think the word Predestination means predestination, then I wonder what they think the word means?

From what I read of them, they believe that it means they were predestinated because God saw they would freely come to Christ. Not that it actually says that,

It's an obvious conclusion. Are you saying God has no foreknowledge?

Mark

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2020, 03:14:06 AM »

It's an obvious conclusion. Are you saying God has no foreknowledge?

You do err not knowing the scriptures. God’s foreknowledge is that no one would come to him of his own choosing, thus God himself chooses. It wouldn’t really be God’s will if he foresaw someone choose him and then based of that decision he then predestinates/predetermines them to be saved. That is dependant on man’s will and not Sovereign God’s.

If you will receive it.

John 1:13
13 3 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Erik Diamond

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2020, 01:48:49 PM »
Quote from: Mark
If you will receive it.

John 1:13
13 3 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, Joe Johnson...before you response, please check with your Scripture and find any verse that refute those two versres above.  You may think that you sovereignly chose God of YOUR OWN FREE WILL, but in truth God has working within you first, according to God's will. Your faith and repentance are RESULT of God's working, not the cause nor your free will! It is because God carries out His work in Salvation WITHOUT prior your human action, agency or consent.  You reacts to God's sovereign grace with the fruits of that work. 


Php 2:13
(13)  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I suggest that you read the article about the Predestination: The Doctrine of Grace. 

 


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Sandy

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2020, 12:27:13 PM »
Have you ever considered what happened to mankind at the creation, when man was indeed created to freely choose to obey God and live forever?  With a will (conscience) having no knowledge of good or evil, man freely chose to disobey God, and heeded the voice of the serpent.

As it should have been. Because without his free will to do so, we would all have been a bunch of robots. Man had to have free will. That's why we have those who freely choose to be good, and those undeserving who continue on in evil.


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Mankind cannot blame God for his fall because he could have freely chosen to obey God.

That's right. But you Reformed people choose to blame God for someone not being saved by this doctrine of no free will, just God's will.


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Man will NEVER freely choose God for everlasting life because man's way to the tree of life is blocked forever.

Rev. 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.'


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If the choosing, through predestination is not of God, there is no hope for any man. 

The hope is that man may choose of himself, of his own free will.

God does indeed see from heaven the hearts of mankind.  Before being declared righteous through Christ according to grace through faith, here is what God sees.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Consider when mankind could have been perceived as robotic:

God created man without knowing either good or evil.  Then according to their free will, God gave them a choice to freely hear Him, or to hear the serpent.  We know what choice they made.  But how was man, whom God created very good, having free will, able to understand the choices they made?  Without knowing sin and death that comes through sin, were they really free? 

How can their choice to heed the voice of the serpent and disobey God be any thing other than robotic, since they knew not that their free will choice would result in death.  They had no knowledge of what death and sin were.  For a man to freely choose, he/she would have to have all the information or the choice they make is dependent only upon their experience in the garden when everything was "very good". 

So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation?  He introduces the tempter into the very good creation to show mankind how his/her so called free will was not then, nor is it now truly free.  Our will is always dependent upon what we know.  Now mankind, before salvation will always choose that which is natural to them.  And natural man has no desire for Christ.  In truth man is only free to choose to obey God or heed the voice of the serpent when he/she has been born again.  Because it is only in knowing both good and bad that man's wills are truly free.               

George

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2020, 01:15:59 AM »
So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation? 

By allowing them free will. That's the only way they are not robots. If they have their own free will. That's the key.


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And natural man has no desire for Christ.  In truth man is only free to choose to obey God or heed the voice of the serpent when he/she has been born again.

That's the old liberal philosophy. Mankind is free to choose to come to the kingdom or not come. We have that choice.

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Answer me this Sandy. Why would God say come to someone who can't come? We have free will to come. Yes?


Mark

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2020, 10:21:34 PM »
Quote
 
So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation?  He introduces the tempter into the very good creation to show mankind how his/her so called free will was not then, nor is it now truly free.         

God does not tempt any man to sin nor is he tempted by it. Please read circumspectly.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Adam and Eve lusted after the fruit (to make one wise) and in their self justification they transgressed God’s law and thus sinned. The choice was to obey God and live or disobey and die. As it is written the wages of sin is death.
“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Proverbs 30:5,6

Sandy

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2020, 08:46:07 AM »
So how does God break this robotic tendency for His creation? 

By allowing them free will. That's the only way they are not robots. If they have their own free will. That's the key.


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And natural man has no desire for Christ.  In truth man is only free to choose to obey God or heed the voice of the serpent when he/she has been born again.

That's the old liberal philosophy. Mankind is free to choose to come to the kingdom or not come. We have that choice.

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Answer me this Sandy. Why would God say come to someone who can't come? We have free will to come. Yes?

The message; i.e. the gospel, about Christ is offered to every human without distinction.  Whosoever will may come!  There is no weakness in the offer of life to whosoever.  The weakness is found in mankind!  They are not prevented from coming, they have no desire to come.  They love the darkness, and will not turn to Christ that they might have life everlasting.  Had God not predestined whosoever He wills, then NO man would freely choose to turn to Christ for life.  Why?  Because they MUST go thru Christ (the true tree of life) to have eternal life, and they love the darkness they live in and have no desire to come into the light, because then their evil deeds would be exposed.   

Sandy

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2020, 08:57:00 AM »


It was not God Who tempted them.  His purpose for sending the tempter was to turn them from within to Him.  As you have said the desire came from within.  Why?  God tried them as He does all men.  But do not forget, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.  God knew that man without knowing sin and death would fall victim to the wiles of the serpent.  But God in His great love and mercy had an answer for the problem of sin and death before either entered in to God's glorious creation.

Yes, man could have chosen to obey God and live forever.  But I must ask, how could man have ever discovered how great the love of God is if he never knows sin and death?  Mankind in the garden would indeed have continued to live forever in a robotic state of being never knowing Christ, the merciful Redeemer.  It was all part of God's all knowing plan, and this was conceived in eternity before the world was created.  God will have a people for Himself!  Their names are recorded in heaven from before the foundation of the world.  I know it is difficult for us to understand, but it was never God's plan to save every man.       

 


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