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Author Topic: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?  (Read 401 times)

Erik Diamond

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Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« on: December 07, 2017, 02:15:34 PM »

Zec 12:2-4
[2]  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3]  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
[4]  In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

With the news about Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital. People, especially Premillennialists, are screaming everywhere that nations are going to fight against nation Israel over Jerusalem as sign of Christ's return.  I tried to correct them by offering Scripture below and explain that Jerusalem is Christ Himself that all of us came against him at the Cross.  Not about physical city of Jerusalem in 70AD or today. It is about Christ and His Congregation, Israel.

Mat 21:42-45
[42]  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43]  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44]  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45]  And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

1Pe 2:6-8
[6]  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
[7]  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
[8]  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


Act 4:24-30
[24]  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25]  Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26]  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28]  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
[29]  And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
[30]  By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

People are giving me looks or accused me of not being pro-Israel and Christian.

Am I right with my doctrine here? Have anyone experience hatred from Premillennialists lately?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Hammerle Labinowic

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 02:56:41 PM »
Premillennialists, and particularly the Dispensationalist type,  have about as much regard for scripture as Trump has for rule of law. But you can see if any might have some integrity by having them read this article by Tony's friend, Doyle Dewberry.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/the-new-covenant.html

Personally, I think that they are lost, like the rulers of the church when Christ came. They just will not receive the truth.

Herman Stowe

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 08:12:53 PM »
Great article Hammer!

Tony Warren

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2017, 09:11:36 AM »
>>>
People are giving me looks or accused me of not being pro-Israel and Christian.
<<<

Christ is the burdensome stone for them, but not for us. As for the accusations, they accused Christ who was without fault and who spoke perfectly concerning these truths, so rejoice and consider it a blessing to know the true Israel of God that you can be Pro-towards, revealing who is a true Christian (follower of Christ) and who is following the same error of National Israel.

Luke 6:26
  • "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Being falsely accused is normative for Christ's true saints when they attempt to witness the truth.THAT is why MOST professing Christians do not witness. They don't want the notoriety, the hassle, the reviling and persecutions. They're like the parable of those who received a talent and went and hide it, buried them in the ground for the Lord's coming (Matthew 25). They don't want that kind of aggravation. So do not worry or be dissuaded. In fact, be worried if they didn't accuse you and spoke well of you (Luke 6:26). Then you'd be like the world, like everyone else.

Mark 14:57-59
  • "And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
  • We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
  • But neither so did their witness agree together."

We are not better than our Christ, Jesus told us plainly that in the world we would have Great Tribulation. But we can be of good cheer because He had overcome the world. ...and us in Him!


Quote
>>>
Am I right with my doctrine here? Have anyone experience hatred from Premillennialists lately?
<<<

Don't ask men, search the Scriptures as the Bereans to see if things are true. If your testimony or witness agree together with the witness of Scripture, then it is impossible for your doctrine to be wrong. Who does the Scriptures say is the Israel of God, and who does the Scriptures say are fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israe and is one body (not two). Who is all spiritually Jews in God's eyes, and what Jerusalem rejects Christ and God says is in bondage with her children? How then is it possible for you to be wrong. There is neither Jew or Greek, we are all ONE in Christ Jesus. There isn't two New Covenants with Israel, for then there would have to be two distinct and separate Israels. Premillennarians notwithstanding.

Matthew 5:11-12
  • "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
  • Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

Don't despair my friend, rejoice! If you should despair, despair for them as the unpalatable truth is, God has not opened their eyes to truth. Pray for them, as we are worshiping two different Jerusalems--one present and another
(ours) from above. We look towards two different Stones and ours is not burdensome, not built with hands. We look toward two different Kingdoms, and ours is not earthly, but Spiritual. Again, the unpalatable truth is, we're just two different people as different as the Apostles were to the Scribes and Pharisees, though both claimed to be worshipping, serving and love the very same God and Messiah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Erik Diamond

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 10:59:40 AM »
Thank you Tony. 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Sue Landow

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2017, 11:41:01 AM »
 :GoodPopst: Tony

   I read n a blog somewhere a article called "the forgotten commission." It should be required reading because that seems to be what is lacking in Christianity today.  The love of truth.
"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened". Luke 13:20-21

Reformer

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »
 :amen: Tony,

Isa 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Erik, you are correct! Christ is that Sanctuary Stone to those who sanctify him, but the Stone of stumbling, the burdensome stone for the Jews who reject Christ as the foundation stone of Israel and refuse to sanctify Him.

 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 Burdensome means something very hard or difficult to carry on themselves, as the Old Testament law for which Christ came to be the foundation and carry for them. They rejected this Stone supporting the Sanctuary being offended by this Savior. Therefore will this stone will grind them to powder. They rejected the true Jerusalem made without hands for the burdensome one made with hands. Which is why Israel is under judgment where neither the UN, the church or Israel's army can deliver them. This is what these accusers cannot understand.  Not unlike other politically motivated ideas of Christianity and what constitutes Israel, righteousness and joining forces in friendship with the world.


Erik Diamond

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 04:49:45 PM »
:GoodPopst: Tony

   I read n a blog somewhere a article called "the forgotten commission." It should be required reading because that seems to be what is lacking in Christianity today.  The love of truth.

Hi Sue, I did look up on Google. It looks like there are two or three different article with the same title. Which is which?

Thanks,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Pilgrim

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2017, 03:38:55 AM »
Is this the one you're talking about?

The Forgotten Commision
by Dr. Wally Webster

My grandmother was an amazing cook and baker. She was able to make great-tasting food like no one on the face of the earth. Maybe this is just nostalgia, or maybe it is absolute fact. I’m not certain the good old days were as good as we make them to be, but there will always be room for nostalgic thoughts. What is sad about my grandmother’s cooking is when she passed away, so did many of her wonderful recipes. Yes, many of them are written down, but reading from a note card and producing the exact results is not the same as walking the journey alongside the cook.

Reflecting on the loss of those amazing meals and desserts takes me back to the memories of family and special gatherings. It’s sad to see memories lost in the rush of life today. What saddens me more are the great principles and lessons God teaches His children that never make it past the memory stage. I am referring to the many times God teaches His followers a great truth from His Word and life situations, and these truths never get passed on to others. Often when a believer dies, so do wonderful lessons.

What if the disciples who sat under our Lord’s teaching for over three years had chosen to hold those truths and never share them? What if those truths had passed away with the deaths of those 12 men? What if they had not obeyed the command to make disciples? We can only speculate the answer. What we do know is that these men passed on the truths as they had been commanded. They did it so well that over 2000 years later, we are still discussing the great truths that were taught by our Savior. They then taught others who sought out faithful men, who in turn taught others (2 Timothy 2:2).

Having served in the pastoral ministry for over 25 years, I can say with a great deal of authority that the commission given to the disciples and passed on to the church has become the forgotten commission. Jesus’ last command to His disciples about ministry was to go into all the world and make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20). This command has often been called the Great Commission. The disciples knew exactly what was expected of them and were willing to die to obey the command. Jesus explained clearly that they were to take the commandments He had taught them and make disciples. In other words, pass the teachings on while you still can.

I see no reason to believe that the command originally given to these 12 men has been fulfilled or rescinded. The command to make disciples is just as relevant today as it was when it was given to the 12 disciples. We know that it is still valid because the church understood it as a mandate (2 Timothy 2:2). Paul told Timothy to do exactly what our Lord told His disciples—find others to teach the truths that you have been taught. Yet today I find very few churches who have an intentional disciple-making ministry and very few pastors who are involved in personal disciple making. It has truly become the forgotten commission.

Paul also reminds the church leaders to “equip the saints” so they can do the work of the ministry. Too many pastors believe they need to do all the work of the ministry, but it is clear that our main objective is not doing ministry, but training others to do ministry. As pastors, we are the most gifted leaders in the church, and we need to exponentially duplicate ourselves for the cause of Christ.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

Manuel

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2017, 04:22:40 PM »

I've often wondered this about the passage in question. Exactly how is Jerusalem made a burdensome stone. Is that the language of judgment or what?

Tony Warren

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 05:00:08 AM »
>>>
I've often wondered this about the passage in question. Exactly how is Jerusalem made a burdensome stone. Is that the language of judgment or what?
<<<

Zechariah 12:3
  • "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."

It's the allegorical story of two Jerusalems. One earthy, of this world and the flesh carnall, and remains at war with all around her--and one Spiritual, not of this world but of heaven, which s not carnal and has been comforted and is at peace. Yes, this passage points to judgment upon the earthly Jerusalem for sin, but also symbolism and imagery regarding their efforts at work to build and carry this city themselves, and their rejection of the unburdensome Stone as the Spiritual foundation of that building.

Psalms 127:1
  • "...Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."

A Spiritual Nation, a Spiritual City, a Spiritual Temple, all with Spiritual Jews. This is what the nation of Israel and their facsimiles the Dispensationalists don't understand about prophesy. Briefly, this all speaks of the earthly stone that men are laden with vs the Spiritual stone that is no burden to them. The burdensome stone represents something oppressively heavy. Jerusalem is this burdensome stone because its people (as they still do today) attempt to build and uphold the nation of Israel, the Holy City Jerusalem, and the Holy Temple and bear it by their own efforts. They are the prophesied builders (Mark 12:10) who by their own means and their own hands want to build earthly nations, kingdoms, cities and Temples, foolishly thinking this is what prophecy requires and what God desires. And this is the great weight of Jerusalem that was and still is truly oppressing both them, and every Zionist that is connected with this philosophy. By contrast, Christ is the Jerusalem that is a "Burden-less Stone" and is not heavy or oppressive to its people. Indeed He came as the foundation Stone of the builders that He might relieve their burden, but they (like the Dispensationalists who sprang from their root) want nothing to do with a Spiritual Israel, and are obsessed with a temporal land, Jerusalem and Temple. In other words, Christ came as the Stone that would give them rest from these heavy burdens that no human could carry on their own, and they refused that type of Stone, that type of Messiah, that type of Kingdom. Take for example what Christ said in Matthew chapter 11:

Matthew 11:28-30
  • "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
  • Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
  • For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

He is the Stone whose burden is light as compared to the burden of earthly Jerusalem, because He does all the heavy lifting Himself. Christ is the burden-less stone that the builders (Jews) rejected. And that rejection means that they had to bear the heavy burden of sin themselves. Something mankind cannot do, and anyone who tries will come under God's judgment. That's why Christ came as the Spiritual nation, the Spiritual Israel, God's "true" only begotten Son called out of Egypt, the Spiritual Jerusalem from above, the Spiritual city of Peace, the Spiritual Holy Temple wherein we can inter into the true holiest of Holies in a Spiritual way through His flesh (Hebrews 10:20). For some reason this Spiritual understanding of God's truth offends many. However, it is in this Spiritual Jerusalem only that God's chosen people may cast off that heavy and burdensome stone. For they think of Prophecy in earthly / worldly terms as concerning the people residing in a plot of dirt in the middle east. Consider the prophesy of Christ's coming and the language of this Spiritual Jerusalem that will learn war no more:

Isaiah 40:1-3
  • "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
  • Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

This Jerusalem represents the elect people of God who will study war no more because they are the Jerusalem that is Spiritual and comforted of God. It's not earthly Jerusalem, or the physical city in Israel that finds Peace and safety, it is the people of this burdenless Stone. These are two distinct and separate Jerusalems, as diverse as Hagar and Sarah and the Covenants with Israel that they represented.

One Jerusalem Christ wept over and prophesied its desolation:

Matthew 23:37-38
  • "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
  • Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

This Jerusalem is the burdensome stone that has been cast down, and remanins at war with God, who has brought its people to desolation for their rejection.

The other Jerusalem God has forgiven and comforted and made peace with. She is the Israel of God, a Holy Nation, a holy City, a Holy Temple, not made by the work of men's hands, but made without hands. This Jerusalem has a burdenless foundation stone whereupon we build, and it is this Stone that brought His people's rest and peace with God. The burdensome stone Jerusalem is surrounded with armies because she never has any peace and once the True Stone was rejected, God sent judgment upon it.

How ironic that a Holy City of God whose name means "Peace" would be found in captivity and at war wherein she was left desolated and in bondage/captivity with her children even to this day, while the Jerusalem which is from heaven would be set free and brought everlasting peace and safety. The allegory of the two groups is striking, but clearly understandable through Spiritual eyes opened by the power of the Revelator.

Galatians 4:23-26
  • "But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
  • Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
  • For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
  • But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Here God illustrates the two Jerusalems. One of the flesh, a burdensome stone, represented by Hagar, at war with God and so remains to this day in bondage with her children. The other from above, set free from spiritual bondage/captivity by the Lord Jesus Christ and brought peace. This is the Jerusalem whereupon the Israel of the flesh stumbled upon in God's judgment.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Manuel

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2017, 07:03:50 AM »
 &TY

Dan

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2017, 08:39:55 AM »
Tony, why do you always have to condemn the Dispensational doctrine? Can't you make your point without judging another doctrine? I guess you're also angry because we have a President in office that supports Israel, recognizes Jerusalem as the focal point of the Jews, and the majority of Christians who support him and this move? Jerusalem will always be the heart of the Jewish people. That why you misinterpret Scripture to suit your Amillennial bent?  :baghead:

Reformer

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2017, 09:30:51 AM »
Actually Tony is not political here, much to your disappointment I'm sure. He's not going to praise or condemn Bush, Trump, Obama or Hilary because they're all unsaved and have nothing to do with the Church or her mission, despite what some conservatives are deluded into thinking. From Tony's posts it's clear that he  believes in the separation of church and state, which Dispensationalists and their far right ilk do not. Two separate things, so let's stick to the topic, which I think he addressed beautifully.  Again, much to your disappointment I'm sure since you cannot address it Biblically.

ZeroCool

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 11:21:41 AM »
Two separate things, so let's stick to the topic, which I think he addressed beautifully.  Again, much to your disappointment I'm sure since you cannot address it Biblically.

 &TY  :BibleRead: The topic is Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone.

 


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