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Author Topic: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?  (Read 489 times)

George

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2017, 03:42:25 PM »
We don't deny that there is a spiritual Jerusalem, we deny that the physical Jerusalem, the physical Israel, the physical Jews, should be ignored.

David Knoles

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2017, 07:10:51 PM »
 :iagree: Exactly!

Tony Warren

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2017, 08:32:56 AM »
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Tony, why do you always have to condemn the Dispensational doctrine?
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Dan,
   Because I am a Christian, literally a follower of Christ. What would you suggest I do? Wink at false gospel being taught in the church, in the name Christ, and say (as many do) we're all of the same body, it's a nonessential and we all shall have peace? That would be a Non sequitur. When someone seeks bread, shall I give them a burdensome stone instead (Luke 11:11), Of if someone seek fish, shall I give them a serpent instead and claim it's all the same? No, for false doctrines in the church are the death of the church, they are not a non-essential as the faithless believe.

Matthew 16:6-12
  • "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
  • And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
  • Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
  • Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
  • Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
  • How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
  • Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

Yes, I testify, beware of the leaven of Dispensationalism.  I never fear to condemn false doctrine, wherever it may be in the church. Be it a Reformed Church, Catholic, Dispensational, Baptist, Postmillennial, Puritan, Charismatic, Preterist, it makes no difference to me. False doctrines are the scourge on the church and should be warned against just as surely as Christ warned against the doctrines of the Priests, Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees.
 

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Can't you make your point without judging another doctrine?
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It is another doctrine, but it's not another's doctrine, because it's called Christianity and it's masquerading as the doctrine of Christ. Yes, sad to say I may appear unorthodox because I condemn it, but actually I take being a watchman seriously. Yes, THERE IS very little judgment in the church today against false doctrines--in fact there is very little judgment in the church today against anything unholy. For the Lord's house has become more a den of thieves where judgment has almost completely disappeared as a famine of hearing the word of God. Nothing new under the sun. Consider:

Isaiah 59:14-15
  • "And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
  • Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment."

It displeases all God's children. Think about that next time you ask for less judgment from the church. Revelation 20:4 says God gave the saints judgment, the judgment of His Holy word. But alas, it seems as if the saints have reasoned among themselves that it is an unnecessary and cruel thing and have in their humanistic logic forborne to use it. Neither as the sword of the Spirit, or as the Spiritual bread. And yet they deem themselves to be faithful followers of Christ. ...in what universe is this true?


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I guess you're also angry because we have a President in office that supports Israel, recognizes Jerusalem as the focal point of the Jews, and the majority of Christians who support him and this move?
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I think that you mistake my compassion and agape love in benevolent concern for Israel as being in bitterness and angry. You mistake my mourning and sadness at the blindness of political Israel for Jealousy. You mistake a plot of dirt in the middle east for the prophesied eternal home of God's chosen people. You mistake the politics concerning national Israel for God's prophesy of a righteous administration and rule of Israel. So many mistakes.  Indeed, you're right about one thing. Jerusalem IS the focal point of the Jews, but Jerusalem is not that plot of dirt in the middle east. That might just as well be a grave plot as the focal point of the true chosen people of God. 

Zechariah 14:17
  • "And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

God foresaw a drought in Jerusalem of those who would not worship its King. It's fulfilled, as for many the place has been desolated and turned into a desert with no rain.

As for your saying the "majority of Christians support" your doctrine, the majority has never been right about anything, nor have they been the elect in God's congregation. Read your Biblical history. It's always been just a remnant of the whole, those chosen by Grace.

Romans 9:27
  • "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

Do you see a pattern here? Neither Israel nor their Dispensationalist brethren understand the words of God concerning these things. Likewise, the elect of the church are a remnant also, as anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can discern for themselves just by observing what has been and is taking place in our churches. If you think the majority of churches are faithful, you are in strong delusion concerning truth. The Biblical fact is, "many are called but few are chosen." If you want to go along with the many through that wide worldly door, then you go right ahead. But was it the majority of Jews walking righteously with Christ, or was it a remnant chosen by grace from the whole. Christ was not ambiguous in explaining this principle again and again and again. But you always seem to be blind to it. It's always been about the majority in unbelief, and on the other hand the few, the fragments, the residue, the remnant of God's people who are accounted to stand against that majority. The majority killed the prophets, killed Christ, are killing the church now. Why are the majority deceived? Because the path of the righteous is restrictive and the majority weren't given the Spirit to abide that. We can be reviled in taking up our cross and following Christ on the narrow path, or we can walk without persecution and trouble on the wide, broad path. Hmmmmm, what is the majority going to do? That's the principle in Scripture of the few and the many. Here is he demonstration by Christ.

Matthew 7:13-18
  • "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
  • Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
  • Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
  • Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
  • Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
  • A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

Many and few. There is the restrictive path of the righteous, and the wide open path that the unfaithful take because it is not restrictive. So you can brag about the majority of Christians trapped in the false doctrines and having been blinded to make earthly Jerusalem their focal point, but we will mourn for them--and yet, still give God the glory for it.


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Jerusalem will always be the heart of the Jewish people.
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Sad, but most assuredly true. Not only to the majority of Jewish people, but those who blindly follow the same Judaizers errors revisited in Dispensationalist doctrine. The same doctrine, repackaged with a different name.

Matthew 21:19
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Israel is the fig Tree. Every tree that doesn't bring forth good fruit is cut down. That should be a lesson to every Christian that there is a set time God has appointed for fruit that He expects from His people, and when that time is over, it's over. NOW is the time, now is the acceptable day of the Lord. And when the testimony is finished, there is no more time for fruit. The Jew first and then the Gentile.


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That why you misinterpret Scripture to suit your Amillennial bent?  :baghead:
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Actually, I try "not" to interpret Scripture, but allow Scripture to interpret itself. And in doing so, I find that God's position on the Kingdom of Israel, the Restoration of Israel, the Freeing the captivity of Israel, the building again of the ruins and Temple of Israel, the reign of the the king, the coming of the Messiah, has already been fulfilled. That's His Kingdom position, and the position today "labeled" Amillennial (no earthly 1000 years). I don't care, call it a box of crackers, the fact remains it is the only position that is identical to Scripture and is gleaned directly from the word of God itself rather than man's own vain ideas of kingdoms and wishful thinking. Let God be the judge which is actually God's vision and which is man's. Earthly or Spiritual? I'm comfortable with that.

Luke 17:20-21
  • "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  • Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

While Israel, Premillennialists, Dispensationalists and others look for a physical Kingdom of Israel to come that can be observed as being "over there" in national Israel,  the Lord Himself has already corrected that declaring that's not how His Kingdom comes. i.e., it's not a earthly or worldly Kingdom observed over there, it's a Spiritual Kingdom. It's within us because we have His Spirit within us. Without that Spirit, we would be forever looking for a physical kingdom to come in the political arena of the middle east. You say that's a misinterpretation of Scripture, I say that's no interpretation at all, it's the unadulterated word of God testified to you word for word. You reject that word as surely as Israel rejected the Corner Stone that would have relieved their burden. i.e., Amillennialism, a word glean directly from the word of God--Dispensationalism, a word borne of the same errors of Old Covenant Israel looking for caral/earthly  fulfillments of Spiritual truths already fulfilled.

 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2017, 08:40:46 AM »
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We don't deny that there is a spiritual Jerusalem...
<<<

No, you just argue "as if" every passage that speaks about Jerusalem in prophesy is about a physical city in the middle east that will be surrounded by physical armies and made war against, despite the fact that it can be easily proven by Scripture that these passages refer to a allegorical city and her children. In God's economy, the Old Testament Jerusalem was earthly and was desolated and fell at the cross. Was that a physical Jerusalem that fell at the cross? No, Jerusalem at the time of the cross physically stood as a great city, but as far as prophesy is concerned, the city was brought to desolation and left in ruins because of her abomination in rejecting her husband, the Messiah. Just as when Christ cursed the Fig tree declaring no fruit would ever grow on it again. That's His prophesy concerning Israel being as a Stone or mountain (kingdom) cast into the sea. Was it a physical Fig Tree Christ was angry with or a physical sea that Christ said by faith this mountain would be cast into? It would seem so to the careless reader. But no, the sea is the deep and the Fig tree and mountain is the kingdom of Israel. Just as Christ said Behold, Jerusalem was left Desolate, so these are pictures of the kingdom of Israel being left desolate, not a physical city under attack. If we will receive it.

Mark 11:21-23
  • "And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
  • And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
  • For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."

We say, Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. Whatsoever we shall bind on earth, shall have been bound in heaven. Thus we do not doubt, for there are a lot of doubters about Christ's words concerning the timing of the judgment of the city of Jerusalem, and afterward about His comforting of her children. Her children--signifying that she is a woman. But it was at the same time of the cross. The Temple destroyed, and then restored by God. A city Jerusalem brought to desolation, and afterward the same city having its ruins rebuilt wherein there is Spiritual worship and sacrifice. Not physically, but Spiritually. And at the same time one Marriage Old Covenant with Israel dispensation passed, the New Marriage Covenant Israel dispensation established. Indeed, you deny the Spiritual Jerusalem by assigning prophesy concerning it--to be earthly.


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...we deny that the physical Jerusalem, the physical Israel, the physical Jews, should be ignored.
<<<

We don't "ignore" the physical Nation, City or Jews, on the contrary, we receive them exactly the way God intended them to be received. As outward physical representations of something far more important than the physical nation, city and physical bloodline. The Holy City of Jerusalem in its physical existence was the corporate representation of the people of God's Holy habitation in Christ Jesus (the congregation). The word city represents a community. Make no mistake concerning prophesy, the only place where the Jews or children of God, will ever find peace and safety is as the bride of Christ. The truth of the physical is not ignored in our theology, it is realized, fulfilled, completed, the representation satisfied in Christ Jesus. Just as we don't ignore that the physical Temple that was built with hands, rather we understand that it was established by God to represent the true Holy Sanctuary of His people. A Temple far superior to the physical one that merely "prefigured" it, because it is the true that comes down from Heaven a Spiritual habitation made without hands. Ignoring the physical would be just as wrong as assigning what God has set as temporal and physical representations to a permanent or everlasting prophesy to be fulfilled in earthly terms. Selah.

John 4:19-24
  • "The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
  • Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
  • Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
  • Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
  • But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
  • God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

The hour is here where God's people worship Him in the Spirit of truth, not in a physical city in the middle east that they have exalted to holy status. No, we don't deny anything of the Bible, we receive it because God gave us eyes to see and ears to hear..


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Chris

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Re: Jerusalem - Burdensome Stone?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2017, 05:29:08 AM »
we deny that the physical Jerusalem, the physical Israel, the physical Jews, should be ignored.

They weren't ignored, they were judged. Blindness in part is happened to national Israel until the fullness of Gentiles come into the kingdom, and this is how all Israel shall be saved. The Jew was first, then the Gentiles. Is God ignoring the Jews or is he explaining the Jews and Israel?

 


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