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Author Topic: Predestination  (Read 799 times)


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« on: January 06, 2018, 03:33:57 PM »
Since Predestination is unfair as it is understood by Calvinists, what is the true meaning of predestination as recorded in places like Romans 8:29 and 30? Does it just mean God saw ahead of time our determination to become saved? Thanks


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Re: Predestination
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 09:08:54 PM »
Since Predestination is unfair as it is understood by Calvinists, what is the true meaning of predestination as recorded in places like Romans 8:29 and 30? Does it just mean God saw ahead of time our determination to become saved? Thanks

Hi Scotty and welcome to Mountain Retreat.

I am a Calvinist and for your information, no where in the Bible does God claim to be fair.  He claims to be just, gracious, merciful and loving.  He gives the non-elect justice in what they deserve and to the elect He gives mercy (God withholding from man what he deserves) and grace (God giving man what he does not deserve).
Here is a little parable that might help.

Let’s say that all of the molecules on a large table represent all of the people who have ever been born (perhaps 10 billion). God calls down with His megaphone and current press release saying, “Anyone who wants to go to heaven must simply keep the 10 Commandments!” How many will obey God’s edict? You got it, absolutely none. (Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "there is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.").
So let’s think about this. When they die, their punishment is eternal damnation, because they did not keep God’s law. Is God unjust? NO, because they went to hell because of their own sin. If God had allowed every single person to go to Hell, it would be complete justice for that is the punishment for their sins and God would be completely righteous in doing this. Now, if God reached down and picked out one single individual from this 10 billion, would this action be unjust? No! Because everyone broke the law and deserved their rightful punishment. This would be GRACE (God giving us what we don’t deserve or unmerited, undeserved favor). Would this be LOVE?  Yes, it would if God saved only one person, because that individual too did not deserve any special favor and only the Love of God could pardon such a sinner. Now for the big question, would that be fair? Let me expand on that thought:
Let’s say that I am a college professor and on the first day of class, I announce that there will be a research paper due on the first of every month. Any late papers will receive an “F”. Does everyone understand? The response is “Yes, Professor Bill, we understand.” On the first of the month, 95 out of 100 students turn in their paper on time. The remaining 5 cry with pink panther tears, “Professor Bill, we did not budget our time well and the transition between high school and college is very tough. Please have mercy (don’t give us what we rightfully deserve) on us and we will have the paper soon.” So I graciously say, “Okay, I will have mercy on you but remember that the next time your paper is late, you get an “F.  Do you understand?” Then the students all go away singing, “How wonderful Professor Bill is (How great Thou art).” The next month rolls around and only 85 of the 100 turn in their papers and the remaining 15 cry, “It is midterm season and we were so busy, have mercy on us, just this once more.” The softy that I am! I said, “Well, okay, but just this once more. Next month no excuses, do you understand?” The third month comes due and 60 of the 100 turn in their papers on time and the others casually say, “Cool man, no problem, we will have it soon.” I then call the roll, “John, no paper. That will be an “F.” Mary no paper. That will be an “F. Jimmy, no paper. That will be an “F”.” Then John stands and shouts, “That is not fair!” I then replied, “You are right, that was not fair. As I recall you were late on the first paper so here is your “F” and also on the second paper, so another “F” for you. Is there anyone else here who thinks that I should be fair?”
No one deserves salvation and God never promised to save everyone. The fact that God might save one person is totally an example of His love, just and gracious, but God is never portrayed as fair. All men will receive justice or Grace and it depends upon God and Him alone.
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
We do not live by the law (Old Testament), but by the Grace of God (New Testament).
John1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ.

Does it just mean God saw ahead of time our determination to become saved?
Be aware that looking down the through time to make a decision is not PREDESTINATION but FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Scotty, I hope that this will help and give you some understanding and appreciation for what God has done for His elect.

The only regret that I have is that I only have one life to live for my God.

Joe Johnson

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Re: Predestination
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 02:55:54 AM »
Hi Billnjune,
  But isn't freedom essential for moral responsibility? Because if our choice is determined or caused by anything other than free will, including our own desires, it cannot properly be called our decision or free choice. Correct?


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Re: Predestination
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 06:03:30 AM »
But isn't freedom essential for moral responsibility?
Greetings Joe~To answer your question...It is indeed. In God's infinite wisdom he chose the first Adam to be responsible for his posterity. God created Adam unright, with no bias toward sin as we all have by nature, for by nature every man loves darkness more than light, so much much more that it is not even close...the truth is, he actually hates light/righteousness and in his mind and heart is at enmity against God...NOT just an enemy, which is bad enough, but one who is at war against truth, righteousness, and godliness everything that God loves and hates he despise God for being against what his heart loves and being for what his heart hates. So, Adam was created upright with a free will to keep ONE simple commandment and he did not do so but I'm convinced he sinned the very day in which he and Eve were created.

You know why he did not continue in that state of uprightness? It is simple...God alone is immutable, no created being can be so, not even angles! God's election must secure the gift of eternal life for BOTH man and angels.

Under the New Covenant, God secures the gift of eternal life for us by His Son's (the second Adam) perfect obedience/faith/righteousness. Jesus Christ was a complex person~BOTH man and God manifested in human flesh. Jesus Christ did perfectly what Adam could NOT do for us. God created Adam and LEFT him to himself WITHOUT any assistance to make him do that one simple commandment. Under the New Covenant God laid help upon one that was MORE THAN ABLE to deliver us from sin and condemnation, his only begotten Son~ he came and destroyed the works of the Devil and delivered us from the bondage of sin and condemnation that Adam's disobedience placed us under.

So, the sum of this is: IN ADAM we all had a free will and with that free will sinned when left to ourselves, thereby became morally responsible for our sin through our father/head the first Adam. Paul deals at length with this subject in Romans chapter 5~how Adam and Christ were representatives of their seed/posterity. What each did was imputed to all of their seed.
"And he shewed me a pure river of water, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."~Revelation 22:1

In the world to come~there WILL BE "pure pleasures"~river/tree=all that is needed to sustain us Forever! Joy, peace, contentment in its fullest, etc.


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