Can a Husband Rape His Own Wife

[George]

That may be a crime civilly, but is it Biblically unlawful? I would say no using Scripture as my guide and not modern whim. If it wasn't a crime to Charles H. Spurgeon, Martin Luther, the Apostle Peter or King David, then why is it suddenly a crime today?

Who cares about history. It's a crime now.

[Tony Warren]

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 :ditto: This is what you get when you enter a reformed Christian forum setting.
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Or this is at you get when you have a forum with a group of people who actually take the word of God seriously and authoritatively, rather than as merely a book of ideas, proposals and suggestions. Either the word of God is your authority, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

Isaiah 30:1-2

• "Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
• That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!"

Woe unto those who execute counsels or make judgments, but not by the Lord, by the imaginations of their own heart. Woe to those that choose bondage of Egypt over the rule of God's word.

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Old men who can't get over their misogyny and headship status and just want to rule over the woman.
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Or when you have rebellious women who don't like the creation order for marriage that God instituted from the beginning for the Husband and wife relationship. A relationship of agape love th transcends will, ego and pride.

Proverbs 21:9

• "It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house."

It's better to live in a small corner of a rooftop alone, than in a great house with a contentious woman. Meaning, it is better to be alone than to be joined together in fellowship with one who is a great hindrance and always contentious with the truth of God's word. Or to put it another way:

Proverbs 15:17

• "Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith."

Hatred of what God has willed stirs up strife, but love of the word covers up sins (Pr overbs10:12,18). If you want to hate what is God's will concerning the relationship between husband and wife, that's your prerogative. But those of us who accept God's word as "authoritative" and inerrant concerning such matters must surrender to His will concerning the marriage covenant. That's why they quoted those Scriptures. Because that is Gd's REVEALED will concerning marriage, not your's or man's. In a God breathed covenanted marriage, each spouse takes a vow before God that transfers the right to use their body as they wish, to the other person. It is written, you are no longer your own as you both take an oath (covenant) or "promise" not to live as two, but as one. Not just her, him as well. They surrender their individuality as two, each losing the sole authority they had being separated, over their bodies. That's what real love is between a husband and wife. It's denial, it's sacrifice, it's surrender, it's giving of yourself for the sake of others As any honest Wife/Husband will tell you, that is exactly (sacrifice, self denial, compromise and surrender) what that relationship is. Not by one, but by both parties. It's not a battle of wills, it's a compromise of human wills. A Godly marriage is a charitable, Biblical accommodation of wills, a give-and-take. It's not a intractable contest of wills. Love then is unconditional, without strings attached. Wives, submit yourselves and love your Husbands, and Husbands honor and love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and sacrificed Himself for it. Does that mean nothing?

Ephesians 5:22-23

• "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
• For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

Ephesians 5:24-25

• "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Colossians 3:18-19

• "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
• Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them."

Where is the mystery here? Husbands are to love their wives unconditionally (thus no possibility of divorce) and not be angry or bitter against them, and wives are to love their husbands and submit to them in everything, even as to Christ. Where is the so-called mystery or the ambiguity here? It wasn't Tony or anyone else who said that, it was God. That is the only point here. What God says about the matter is not subject to private interpretation, personal opinions or modern day reinterpretation as "I can do what I will, whenever I will." I believe that God has made His will "CRYSTAL" clear on the matter. Of course, everyone isn't going to like it, but that goes for everything and every topic God has commented on. It always is, and always will be a matter of obedience and disobedience. Nothing new here.

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You might as well be talking to a rock about rights because they'll beat you over the head with the bible as if that settles everything.
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If the Bible says it, then that does settle everything. At least it does when you are a Christian and it is the authority by which you live, as the only infallible word of God spoken today. On the other hand, if it is viewed as "just words," then why call yourself a Christian in the first place. Since being a Christian by definition means to be a follower of Christ, the living Word. The Christian prayer is that we receive His judgments and not turn away from them for our own self-serving and vain purposes.

Psalms 119:29-39

• "Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
• I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
• I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.
• I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.
• HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
• Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
• Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
• Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
• Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
• Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
• Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good."

It is God that uses the word as a hammer to beat us over the head that we realize it settles everything. As Jeremiah said of God (Jeremiah 23:290), "Is not my word like as a fire saith the LORD, and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces." Indeed it is.

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We all know plenty of scoundrels who use the bible to appear righteous.
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Indeed, use the Bible out of context and in a vacuum apart from other pertinent Scriptures. Satan (Matthew 4:6-7) and the Scribes and Pharisees (Mathew 23:23) come to mind in that regard. We also know plenty of scoundrels who use the bible as a carpet to walk upon and trample under foot when they don't like what it says. And they are legion. Even as in the days of old.

Jeremiah 12:10-11

• "Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
• They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart."

The congregation is brought to desolation because no man lays it to heart. No one cares about authority of God's word, and no one grieves for this apostasy that has so plagued God's house. They are consumed therein, but they have refused to receive correction. They have made their faces harder than a rock, their conscience being seared so that they have refused to return (Jeremiah 5:3). As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun. Indeed, we all know plenty of scoundrels who use the bible to appear righteous--and they do so by ignoring relevant Scriptures in order to justify their private interpretations. ...just as the Devil did when he quoted Scripture to tempt Christ in the wilderness. Christ set him straight not by ignoring that Scripture, but by giving other Scriptures that "qualified" the Scripture Satan has used out of context. A lesson for us all. Both Scriptures are true. Scripture cannot be made null and void, but it can be qualified by other Scriptures.

"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

[Maurice]

So you're saying that because a man named Paul said that a women should be subject to her man and that she is to submit to him as if he were the lord, that's law? That doesn't make any sense. A wife has every right to not submit and to him or to  deny him anytime she wants. It's her body. These aren't the cave man days, it's 2017. I can't believe this type of thinking still exists.

[Joe Johnson]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_(United_States_law)

[Tony Warren]

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So you're saying that because a man named Paul said that a women should be subject to her man...
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No, I'm saying that because God said that, "as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." There is a difference. I know it's typical when someone quotes Scripture word for word to claim that they are he ones saying it, but actually it's God saying it. Your real offense is not with what I say, but what God said.

2nd Peter 1:20-21

• "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
• For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

First, "true" Christians don't believe that the Apostle Paul spoke this because it was his private opinion, but that he spoke as the Holy Spirit God moved him to speak concerning this issue. Just as the recorded words of the prophets of the Old Testament are God breathed, so this is true also of the written words of the Apostles of the New Testament that are recorded. It came not by the personal will of these men, nor was it their own private interpretations, but the words came as they were moved by the Holy Spirit of God to speak them. That's the pillar of true Christianity, our faith in the authority of the word.  So no, I'm not saying a man named Paul commanded this, I'm saying what was written was divinely inspired to be the word of God. Thus faithful Christians who are also moved by the Spirit, receive it as God's word, and they keep it.

John 5:3

• "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

We "keep" it, as in "Guard it from loss," "preserve it" or "retain it."  Sure, some will look at what God's word commands as a violation of their liberty, a burden to women, something grievous or egregious or distressing to the wife, but in the Spirit and love of truth, God's children look at it as something loving, honorable and that which is to be preserved or guarded from loss. These laws weren't instituted to be grievous to the wife, but are a product of God's love to preserve the divine order and institution of marriage and family. That many people will not see it that way, is beside the point.

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...and that she is to submit to him as if he were the lord, that's law?
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Yes, that's God's law. The Apostle Paul didn't author that, God authored it and expects Bible Believing Christians to honor His word. The church's relation to Christ in this indissoluble, unbreakable relationship is the foundation and archetype of that of a husband and his wife. The command here is not to be lightly esteemed, but regarded as divine law, which it is. It's not a suggestion for the husband wife relationship, but a command.

Ephesians 5:22-25

• "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
• For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
• "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
• Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it."

Those are God's words, as the Apostle Paul was testifying as the Spirit moved him. The fact that you attribute this clear Christian doctrine to a man just underscores why there are believers and unbelievers, true Christians and false Christians, people that will do whatever they want, and people that will "actually" lean upon the Bible as their authority. Why do you think that there are Christians that will fight and force the Bible to say whatever they want it to say, and other Christians that will humbly surrender to the will of God as recorded in the Bible? It's the difference between Holy Spirit filled Christians having ears to hear, and professing Christians that have ears but cannot hear. The former look at God's word as the law of His will for mankind, and the latter as something they need to find ways to get around His will for mankind.

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That doesn't make any sense.
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1st Corinthians 2:1316

• "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
• But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
• For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Not just words, words of truth. Sure, it doesn't make sense to be obedient to the Bible if we don't agree with it, from the natural man's perspective. Because without the discernment of the Holy Spirit, there is no one who will apprehend or receive humbly the things that God has revealed. So it doesn't make sense to him because being carnal, he seeks out wisdom from a worldly, carnal, humanistic source.

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A wife has every right to not submit and to him or to deny him anytime she wants.
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According to the wisdom of man, she does. According to the word of God, that's not the attitude, thinking or mindset that the Christian wife should have. God says submit, but man says you have no obligation to submit. So it "once again" all boils down to who is our ultimate authority on the matter, our own will, or the will of God.

Colossians 3:18-19

• "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
• Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them."

As in Ephesians, we read the exact same thing here in Colossians. It's not ambiguous what God's will is, and yet man in his willful state makes it appear ambiguous. This precept is concerning the Christian family, and requires of wives subjection in the Lord. Of course, if we have no faith or trust in the authority of the word, it all becomes a moot point and we can believe anything that we want. Thus the terms "Bible Believing" Christians, versus Christians. One receives God's word as authoritative and the other has reservations according to whether they like it or not..

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It's her body.
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However, it doesn't belong exclusively to her in the Christian Covenant Marriage. These Scriptures have been presented before, I present them again for your continued rejection.

1st Corinthians 7:4

• "The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

This all simply reiterates what Christ said in Matthew chapter 19 that the wife and the husband being joined in covenant marriage equals a one-flesh union that is unbreakable. The singleness of body in the marriage covenant places husband and wife in a dual ownership of each other's body. The wife doesn't have exclusive ownership of her body, neither the husband over his, but both control over the other. Not in a power struggle since one doesn't have power over their own, but in surrender one to the other in the perfect harmoneous ideal. CLEARLY, it is not that one has power over their own body (conteradictory to what is written), but God is illustrating the equal rights of husband and wife over each other's body. Two options here. We can either say that God is wrong, or we can humbly receive what has been said. ...if we believe the Bible is authoritative. If not, again, it's a moot point.

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These aren't the cave man days, it's 2017.
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God is immutable, His laws don't change with the changing tide of public opinion or cultural eras or ever changing modern day philosophies. What's written in those Scriptures given, pertains to every single Christian then, as well as today.

Psalms 119:140

• "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it."

God's word is very pure, as pure as the most "refined"  gold, whereas it is not to be deemed archaic by changing times or seasons. The True Christian loves it, while the pretenders are offended by it and so deceitfully seek ways to make it untrue. To be sure, God's word is as relevant today in 2017 as it was the day it was penned.

Indeed, as this verse says, we love it "because" we know it is pure, unadulterated, as contrasted to man's private interpretations of it. Our love of the word of God (wherein we keep or guard it from loss) is evidence of our love of God. It is this refined Word that keeps us from the dross and carnality of this world and its degradations and declension away from original sound Christian doctrine. If that means I'm a cave man, I have no problem being a cave man.

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I can't believe this type of thinking still exists.
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Romans 11:3-4

• "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
• But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

BELIEVE IT! In all generations there will always be a few left who have not succumbed to the cunning stratagems of the gods of this world to bow the knee to popular philosophies and doctrines designed with the will of man in mind. Amidst the general corruption and idolatry of God's congregation, He has and always, and will always reserve a remnant that He claims for himself. Those with the mind of Christ, having no "thinking" attributed to any goodness or virtue in themselves, but by preservation by the Holy Spirit to "keep" His commandments and not fall into this corruption and apostasy. The glory and credit for this preservation of the saints belongs not to man, but to God alone. So while you can't believe this type of thinking still exists, praise God and glorify His name that it does still exists, though small it may be.  ..Till He Come!

"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

[Bruce]

What do you all think of this:

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2009/12-08a.html

[Reformed Baptist]

I think the husband is wrong and the wife is wrong, which is usually the case in these situations where a wife refuses her husband's needs or desires. She initiates the sin, and he compounds her sin by adultery of his own, and uses her sin as an "excuse" for his sin. Like Adam and Eve. Eve initiates the sin and Adam compounds it. Both the man and the wife are guilty and both should be condemned, not just the man (as is usually the case). At least it should be in Christian circles.

[Betty]

I have tried, but I can't figure out what is wrong with you people. No book gives any man the right of control over his wife's body. Time changes and so does society and we have to change with it. That's why the church is becoming irrelevant. Because it doesn't adapt, it is left behind. So Sad.

[Rose]

  A marriage license should not be viewed as a license for a husband to force his wife into sexual relations when she doesn't want to, and do it with impunity. The wife has control over her own body, and the courts all over the world agree. No one cares about what the law was 50 years ago, we care about what the rule of law is now. My husband will have sex only when I say, where I say and if I say. That's the way it should be. The Bible doesn't overrule the court of law.

[Soldier]

Wives, submit yourselves and love your Husbands, and Husbands honor and love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and sacrificed Himself for it. Does that mean nothing?

Ephesians 5:22-23

• "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
• For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

Ephesians 5:24-25

• "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Colossians 3:18-19

• "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
• Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them."

Where is the mystery here? Husbands are to love their wives unconditionally (thus no possibility of divorce) and not be angry or bitter against them, and wives are to love their husbands and submit to them in everything, even as to Christ. Where is the so-called mystery or the ambiguity here?

Jeremiah 12:10-11

• "Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
• They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart."

The congregation is brought to desolation because no man lays it to heart. No one cares about authority of God's word, and no one grieves for this apostasy that has so plagued God's house. They are consumed therein, but they have refused to receive correction. They have made their faces harder than a rock, their conscience being seared so that they have refused to return (Jeremiah 5:3). As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.

  Tony, I've said it before, I'll say it again. "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." One who is truly blessed of God to preach the scriptures honestly and faithfully no matter what others think about you doing it.

I am one of those few blessed by what you write and your attention to scripture alone to define doctrine, and not pastors, culture, politicians, churches, traditions and prognosticators. It is according to the true proverb, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country."

So many Christians today don't understand the doctrine of ultimate authority of the word over our own opinions, and that is the real shame of all this. They accept parts of scripture they like, and talk over top of all scriptures they don't like. Keep witnessing to truth and know that there are a few who truly appreciate your straight forward, non-politically correct, honest talk.

[Halle]

 :ditto:  :GoodPopst:

[Erik Diamond]

 :ditto: Solider

[Trevor]

 :ditto:  :ditto:  :ditto: makes 3 

[Tony Warren]

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Tony, I've said it before, I'll say it again. "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet."
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We're all prophets, seeing as God defines prophets as "those who declare God's word." We're all prophets, messengers, amabassadors, envoys, representatives, emissaries, ministers, witnesses, apostles and disciples. None above the other, all stewards of God's testimonies. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. The only question is, are we true prophets or false (1st John 4:1) prophets. Is His word our ultimate authority, or is whatever we think is right in our own eyes that which we put our faith and trust in.

Proverbs 3:6-9

• "In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
• Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
• It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
• Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:"

"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"