[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Gun Toting Ministers?  (Read 12479 times)

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2342
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2018, 09:10:50 AM »
>>>
I have believed those very things for over 20 years. I taught my children those exact things about the revolutionary war years ago while homeschooling them.

Yeah well not every Christian believes that.
<<<

George,
   You're stating the obvious. Not every professing Christian believes anything, including that Jesus was God, the Pope is the head of the church, Mary was a harlot, the Bible is God's infallible word, there was a actual Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, punishment in Hell, Moses parting the Red Sea, the worldwide Flood, and so on and so forth. Whether every Christian believes something is immaterial to whether it is the truth or not. That fact always seems to escape you. Man in his own wisdom is a foolish man to God. For God is still on the throne and has a hand in even that.

1st Corinthians 1:19-20
  • "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
  • Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

To you it is wise for the Christian to take up arms to defend the Lord's people in the Lord's house. To me, that is not wisdom, but faithless foolishness. The Lord judge, because unlike man, He judges righteously. And "every" faithful, Christ-centered Christian, believes that.


Quote
>>>
In fact few Christians believe that.
<<<

If you mean few professing Christians, you may be right--I don't know and I don't presume to know. But it doesn't change anything. Few children of God believed Christ was the Messiah at His first coming, but that didn't change the "fact" that He was. The point being, in carnal man's wisdom, the strength in the faith of Christ is considered weakness. The man of the flesh despises the man of the Spirit because the two are at war with each other. It's the flesh telling the church to arm themselves, and the Spirit that reveals this is a product of the flesh and not the Spirit. We're at a point now where actions that wouldn't have been dreamed about by most Christians a few years ago are now spoken about openly and contemptuously. It only demonstrates vividly a despising of the truth and the continual degradation of the church as we draw closer to that day when we say, "how are the mighty fallen."

1st Corinthians 1:27-29
  • "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
  • And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
  • That no flesh should glory in his presence."

So, if few Christians believe n that type of faith (as you say), we are one step closer to that day.


Quote
>>>
The founding Fathers sure didn't and they were the Christians who started this country.
<<<

The "founding Fathers" must speak for themselves, but God sure did, evidenced by His infallible word. This country and its tribes were here long before conquerors landed, and seditionists rebelled. But like Canaan, it was not God's will that the natives of this country remain in the seat of power. And like Canaan, it was not because the settlers, nor revolutionaries were more righteous, but because of the sin of the people here in the land. A demonstration of the sovereignty of God, not the righteousness of "founding fathers." Note what God explains to his children Israel about such arrogance, vain, carnal thinking.

Deuteronomy 9:4-6
  • "Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
  • Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
  • Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people."

You think God established the United States because the Revolutionaries were righteous in their thoughts and actions, or noble and justified in their goings? Think again!


Quote
>>>
Give me liberty or give me death!
<<<

Few who think that way understand the true nature of their lack of liberty where they "are already" under penalty of death. Indeed the church of Christ's day sought Liberty from the Romans and in the process failed to understand the true nature of their captivity and servitude was spiritual. As saith the preacher, There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be again.

John 8:33-34
  • "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
  • Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

A Christian set free in Christ, "Has both Liberty and freedom from Death," which no man can take from Him, and no man has but in Him. A liberty that no state, no country, no nation can take from them. Riches that no tax system can take from him. And it is enough because we are strangers and Pilgrims here, except this world be our true home. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2342
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2018, 09:26:16 AM »
>>>
I do not agree with Tony on the actions of the Patriots, the gun in churches or sitting back and accepting undue taxes, or police states or tyranny from governments.
<<<

That's Ok, no one has to agree with me--in fact I'd be nervous if "everyone" did because I know I wouldn't be preaching the truth. That being said, the only alternative to what you said is "sedition," which is decidedly unbiblical, not to mention unlawful in church and state. But the problem really is, that's not what I say, it's what the Bible says. So I "think" your disagreement is not with me on these issues, but with what God said about obedience and submission to government power. Because I quote God, not myself. I'm a witness bearing His testimony, I'm not the author.

Romans 13:1-3
  • "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
  • Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
  • For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

Whosoever therefore (or thus) resists that government power is resisting the law of God. So if we really want to be transparent about it, let's just call it what it is. You actually disagree with what God's word says we are to do--and I understand that. But don't put the ordinance against sedition or insurrection as from my mouth, it is "clearly" the word of God--that is to say, if you believe that sort of thing. If not, then the whole conversation is moot.

...as the age old proverb says, "don't blame the messenger" for the message!


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Drew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2018, 05:31:11 AM »
I do not agree with Tony on the actions of the Patriots, the gun in churches or sitting back and accepting undue taxes, or police states or tyranny from governments.

Do you not agree with Christ? He paid taxes and accepted the tyranny of Rome.


I do not agree with Tony but yes, I agree with Christ. As for him paying taxes, they weren't taxed to death on everything like we are now. Do you really think he would stand for the unfair taxes we have today from state, local and federal?  And he told us to buy swords.

He said therefore to them, But now he that has a purse let him take [it], in like manner also a scrip, and he that has none let him sell his garment and buy a sword; [Luke 22:36]


Moreover, Christ's confirmed in Matthew 10:34 that he approves the sword. Tony's not the only one who can show scripture.
Quote
Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. [Matthew 10:34]


Read that in context. Christ used the sword as symbolism for division. Division between those in the same household. Believers and unbelievers.

I didn't read anything about family in that verse and I didn't read any word symbol. And what about the Luke scripture I just posted?

aquatic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2018, 01:32:01 PM »
Moreover, Christ's confirmed in Matthew 10:34 that he approves the sword. Tony's not the only one who can show scripture.
Quote
Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. [Matthew 10:34]


Read that in context. Christ used the sword as symbolism for division. Division between those in the same household. Believers and unbelievers.

I didn't read anything about family in that verse and I didn't read any word symbol. And what about the Luke scripture I just posted?
[/quote]

I said read it in context. Let me do it for you then:

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Itís also in Luke again, except this time the word sword is actually replaced with division:


Luke 12:51-53

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.





Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2018, 05:46:17 PM »
The context is a sword, not a flower.

ZeroCool

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2018, 10:15:15 PM »
Well. That's certainly not the Catholic interpretation. Have you gone renegade Doug?

Dan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Gender: Male
  • Dan the Man
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2018, 01:23:44 AM »
 )inter( Renegade or not, Catholic or protestant, the only question is, is he right? The context is a sword, not a flower. The context is warfare, not peace. The context is Jesus bringing us a sword to do battle. That is equivalent to today's guns is it not? That's the context.

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2018, 02:34:32 AM »
Well. That's certainly not the Catholic interpretation. Have you gone renegade Doug?

Not at all, just stating a fact that I hope is not lost.

Drew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2018, 08:45:12 AM »

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


So we're not to take the sword literally? I'm sorry I don't agree with this liberal philosophy. I'm not a non-literal or amilly guy who spiritualizes these things. I take what is said very literally. That verse means what it says, so even if people of your own household stand against you as a enemy, you still take the sword to defend yourself. The sword was not for playing cards with, it was for defense, punishment and attack. Christ says he came to have his people take up the sword, not so they could be liberals who want peace and desires to ban the sword.

One of the best theologians of all time, Dr. John Walvood says of ruling powers that they bear not the sword in vain but that they are the ministers of God to administer justice upon the wicked. It's the same principle because it means we defend ourselves and use it for judgment. It doesn't matter if it is through government or through church ministers or we dend ourselves in our own household, even if liberal family members are upset and don't like it. We still do it because he didn't come to bring peace between us.
 

aquatic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2018, 04:38:55 PM »

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


So we're not to take the sword literally?

NO..there are 7 pages in this thread explaining why. Me repeating all the verses isnít going to make you understand when youíve ignored all the others.

Drew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2018, 02:19:26 AM »
You see aquatic, that's the difference between the Premillenarian and the Amillennarian. We take the Bible exactly as it says and you spiritualize it to mean whatever you want it to mean. The 7 pages in this thread don't explain away changing the word sword to mean no sword. That's done by you Amillennarians. And just so you know, just because I don't accept your non literal interpretations, doesn't mean that I've ignored scripture. I just don't fall for the anti Israel, spiritualizing and anti free will ways that most theologians agree is self serving.

Melanie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 939
  • Gender: Female
  • 🌴"But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God. -Psalm 52:8"
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2018, 10:10:43 PM »
You see aquatic, that's the difference between the Premillenarian and the Amillennarian. We take the Bible exactly as it says and you spiritualize it to mean whatever you want it to mean. The 7 pages in this thread don't explain away changing the word sword to mean no sword. That's done by you Amillennarians.

No more than the word Serpent means no Serpent, stars thrown down means no stars throne down,  Temple means no Temple or Bread means no Bread. The real difference between your Dispensational theology and Amillennial Theology is that Amillennialists allow God to define what HE is talking about because he is the only one who can.


Quote
And just so you know, just because I don't accept your non literal interpretations, doesn't mean that I've ignored scripture.

No, but to not accept Christ's non literal interpretations, does mean that you've ignored scripture. You know, the Serpent, Stars, Temple, Bread, lada, lada, lada?




laurenp

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Gender: Female
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2019, 12:39:34 PM »

(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)


I remember the thread well. I loved that old forum. Has it really been 17+ years?  :o

Tony, where can we find posts from the old forum?

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2342
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2019, 05:53:30 AM »
>>>
Tony, where can we find posts from the old forum?
<<<

I'm afraid that ship has sailed. I have it on a memory stick backuop but I'm not going to resurrect it or place it back online. Sorry.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

laurenp

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Gender: Female
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2019, 12:00:33 PM »
Thanks for letting me know.

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]