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Author Topic: Hating the Haters of God  (Read 4153 times)

Trevor

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 09:39:50 AM »
There are a lot of different views on this issue, most modern ones falling on the side of it meaning "love less." But having heard all the expert opinions and reasons given, I fall squarely on the side of hate meaning hate or at least a strong dislike. It never means love in any measure. I don't put any stock in secular evidence or Judaic traditions, the bible itself in 99.9% of cases clearly points to hate meaning hate. And the 0.1 percent that isn't absolutely clear, is at least debatable. I'm not going to base a doctrine on that kind of non support.

And We can't overlook the fact that Luke 14:26 includes more than hating or not loving family members. It also includes hating ourselves. And that doesn't mean loving ourselves less, it means crucifying ourselves, rejecting ourselves, denying ourselves for the cause of Christ. So I too believe the word hate is correct.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

I believe that the very fact that Christ mentions "...and even his own life.." is the key to a proper interpretation of this verse as not loving (hating) ourselves or family that hate Christ. The apostle Paul said it best.

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:24-25

Spiritually we hate the body of this death, we don't love it, but less than Christ. Because as said before, there is a natural enmity there. So in the spirit, that is with the mind of Christ, we serve the law of God. But in the flesh we don't hate the body and do things that in the Spirit we shouldn't do. We must hate our own selves, that is an evidence we are in Christ. Likewise with those who hate God. Hating the haters of God is as David proved not an unchristian or unrighteous thing at all. But not everyone will hate in a way that they will give up their earthly pleasures and family for the cause of Christ. And that is what is being explained in these verses. That if you can't, you can't be Christ's disciple. So when Christ reiterates this in Luke 14:26, he again explains how hating your family and your own life refer to lot loving it to the point that you give up all of who you are to be Jesus' disciple. So I agree the word translated hate does not mean love less, it means hate. You have to hate these things in order to love the lord.
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Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
New York, NY

Betty

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 12:08:50 PM »

Unbelievable. I'm hearing this, but I don't believe what I am hearing. Jesus never hates, nor teaches anyone to hate. I've read the Greek and Hebrew scholars and found out that what Jesus was saying here is for one to be His disciple, he must be prepared to leave behind anyone who prevents him from serving Jesus. In other words, to love them less than they love Christ. Jewish experts agree that to ‘hate’ your father and mother is a welll known idiomatic expression of that time and culture.  It simply meant ‘to love less’.

For example, look at the passage Tony gave in the book of Malachi, Chapter 1 verses 2 and 3.  God says: “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland…” (NIV)  If we look at the Amplified translation we see this text as “But [in comparison with the degree of love I have for Jacob] I have hated Esau and have laid waste his mountains…” (AMP)

Experts agree that it doesn't mean he actually hated Esau, but that in comparison to Jacob, he loved Esau less.

John

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2013, 02:23:31 PM »
Luk_14:26  If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters, and besides, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

God always makes the distinction that "hate" means real hatred and it is the reaction God has toward the wicked. There is never a grey area with God. Though people often pretend to follow Him or in some way or align themselves with a portion of the Law - God exposes them as "haters".

The wicked do not "love less" God - they hate, loath, despise, recoil at Him. The world loves itself and each other - for they have one mind - the mind of Satan. There are no shades of meaning.

This is the Law that operates with God and those that love Him in obedience - we hate the things that God hates. But, we are not holy, blameless, perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-wise. We ourselves would be 'hated' by God if it weren't for the propitiatory payment made on our behalf by Christ. That we are not an offense to God has nothing at all to do with us being better than the rest. Therefore, we look at the mass of sinful humanity (that hates God) with humility.

Humility says our father, mother, wife, children, brother, and sisters just may be one of God's elect - as we were. Not knowing if God loves this one or that one requires each believer to treat all mankind with love - not as the world loves, but a spirit-centered love that they know the truth, reject evil, and worship God.

God knows intimately His elect - and hates perfectly those He doesn't know/love, that is, whom He will not redeem out of the earth. We know little - yet the principle remains that as believers we are to hate the enemies of God, be they mother, wife, children, brother, or sister, but also we do not hate, loath, despise, and recoil at those that God loves - His elect.

So, two principles are working in this life - hatred for God's enemies, whomever they be, and love for those God loves - so what is one to do?

Mat 5:44-45
(44)  but I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you,
(45)  so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.


What is the point of our putting up with the haters of God who revile His people? Because God puts up with the wicked too - and He is Holy while we are but dirt. Therefore, if God is patient toward the wicked for the sake of His elect then likewise we too endure those who hate us. Doing this is to put on the mind of Christ - it is to think like God. Loving your enemies is our daily calling, it is our duty. Likewise, we are to hate those who hate God so that we do not join them in their wickedness - in doing so we shows ourselves to be "sons of your Father in Heaven" and to be reaching for a "perfect" mind in Christ.

Mat 5:48
(48)  Therefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.


How does this perfect, heavenly mind-set work in daily life? Consider the two extremes or polar opposites "hate" and "love". They can operate at the same time but in different ways. You can love your parents and also hate them - at the same time but in different ways.

Should your parents want you to join them in sin, as an example, perhaps as innocuous as their use of the word "Jesus", where they are using God's name in vain. What do you do? Answer: You hate them for this is what God also hates. It should make you react immediately to correct them for their sin (hate is not chiefly an emotion it is a positional perspective). If they cease not to sin in your presence then "flee idolatry", and leave.

Where is the love then in this situation? You are showing them love by your action and rebuke (to correct their behavior). The aim is to keep them from further sin and greater punishment. You do this because you love them - warning them of the judgment to come. That is real love (not an emotional love that the world has, but a loving result or action taken) - for that is our Christian mindset and duty.

Hate and love are operating together at different levels and at the same time. They are two-side of the same coin. It is quite possible, even necessary, to hate the wickedness of men, even your closest relatives, and likewise love them by seeking their highest good - salvation. 

What the Christian churches do today is to love the wicked in their wickedness as they cow-tow and woo them into the church through deception and worldly schemes. That is not Christian "love". Knowing the hatred God has for the wicked (and His love for His elect) the prefect method God endorses is to guide your actions according to that knowledge. Knowing the hatred of God and as Christians perceiving the hatred that God has, we fear for them and persuade men, that some might be saved.

2Co_5:11  Then, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, and we have been known to God; and I also hope to have been known in your consciences.

Do you and I hate sin when it is displayed before us? Or do you let it slide and say "I must love them by accepting them as they are". Jesus clearly demands you to be abhorred at sin and not abide in comfort with it (in yourself and others - both are to be hated). If you are at ease and wink at sin - then you are not thinking God's thoughts but rather carnal thoughts.

Neither hatred nor love are emotional expressions at their root, God is not asking Christians to walk around with clenched fists and angry red-faced scowls at everyone you meet. That is worthless emotional energy - that is the way of the world. What God wants from your hatred of sin is action!

Because you love your enemies you "pray for those abusing and persecuting you", praying God for their salvation. And because you hate the enemies of God you do not join them, you eschew evil, knowing their end you fear for them and correct them, teaching them through your witness into the truth. The cycle completes: for this you are hated and persecuted by them - for which you love them by continuing to witness to the truth.

Since there are no shades of grey with God - if you decide (as many have) that "I will not hate anyone", then in not hating the wicked and evil-doer you become a party to it. If you are lukewarm will not God spew you out?

How can you correct the wicked? Will it be the false gospel of 'accepting' Christ or 'joining up' with the church? Do not the wicked need to know that God hates the evil-doer and shouldn't your witness be the same? Is it any surprise that those professing Christians that embrace the world and find it unthinkable to rebuke the wicked but cry all day about "love", are the ones selling lies and a false gospels that cannot save? 

Since God hates the wicked then why is there no action to correct what God hates? We are not the moral police. But, if your mother or father behaves in a way that reveals their hatred for God and you do nothing, giving no rebuke, then you have no witness for God. Why do you approve what God hates? How do you propose to show 'love' to the wicked when they aren't offended by you? Are you not approved by the world?

Joh_7:7  The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I witness about it, that its works are evil.

Love your enemies (by seeking their salvation) and hate your enemies (by opposing their wickedness and correcting it where it is your lawful duty to do so). Take either away and your witness is diminished or silenced.

If you do not hate the deeds of your own mother and father, brother or sister, then as an ambassador of Christ you make the statement that God approves it too - which is a lie. And therefore your witness is false.

If you do not love your enemies by wanting them to escape the wrath of God, then you also have no witness and display an ungodly hatred of your mother and father, brother and sister in that you refuse to warn them. If you say "all is well - God loves you" then you do not hate the evil they do, for you encourage it.

So the only proper Christian attitude toward your mother and father, brother and sister is to hate whatever evil is before you, make no excuses for them even if they disown you, for your master is Christ and not man. Knowing then the perilous situation your relatives and family are in before an angry God - you can be motivated to count all earthly things loss by comparison - and witness to the truth. Lose either your hatred for evil or your love for those God would save - is to venture into darkness and carnality; it is to be salt that is not salt, a purveyor of poison water, a clanging cymbal, a blind leader of the blind, it is to be a broken cistern that is good for nothing.

Tit_1:16  They profess to know God, but by their works they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient, and worthless to every good work.

There are many professing Christians who feign to know God but deny Him in their works. God does not "love less" those that His soul hates. He does not love them at all.  Those that deny Him, either by their "loving less" or half-loving what God hates are worthless for any good work and are without any holy witness (see Mat 10:33 for their end).

john
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aquatic

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 02:45:04 PM »
Can God really do anything that is less than perfect? He loves fully and He hates fully.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 05:13:09 PM »
Quote
Can God really do anything that is less than perfect? He loves fully and He hates fully.

 :iagree:

Erik
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Erik Diamond

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 05:19:58 PM »
Quote
If we look at the Amplified translation we see this text as “But [in comparison with the degree of love I have for Jacob] I have hated Esau and have laid waste his mountains…” (AMP)

Betty,                             

The Amplified Bible is straight from pits of hell.  The translators use text brackets with their own clarifying notes and comments making it confusing to the reader. You need to realize that this AMP is nothing but opinionated bible and does not reflect the Truth. They added the wording of modern text which does NOT make a good translation for public reading.  AMP is one of the most unreliable translations made to date! 

That explains why any bibles that are "love-less" to the Truth sounds appealing to you, Betty! :-)

Erik 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Doug Johnson

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 05:39:34 AM »

It's funny how John Erik and others think they are smarter than the Greek experts.  In this verse, the original Greek word is miseo, meaning “to love less” (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible). But of course, John, Tony, Et el are smarter than the experts who worked on Strong's.

Melanie

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2018, 02:47:17 PM »
It's funny how John Erik and others think they are smarter than the Greek experts

What's really funny is you thinking God's hate means he just loves less. Does his hatred of wickedness mean he loves wickedness a little less than he loves righteousness? Because if not, your understanding of the word is wrong.

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Malachi 1:3"


Doesn't sound like he loved Esau a little less to me, it sounds like he hated him. As you have already been shown, hate is the opposite of love, not a synonym for a lesser version of it.

Betty

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2018, 02:38:47 AM »
You are obviously wrong, because God is love.

1 John 4:16 BIBE
"And we have seen and had faith in the love which God has for us. God is love, and everyone who has love is in God, and God is in him".

So Melanie, that's scripture and so you have God confused with someone else. God hates things like sin, he does not hate people.

aquatic

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 07:46:22 PM »
Betty,
How can you say God doesn’t hate people, when it clearly states God hated Esau? Esau is a person, right? I mean you completely ignored the verse Melanie posted.

Betty

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2018, 07:59:04 PM »
Because the best biblical scholars say that the word hate Melanie posted means "love less", not hate in the way we understand it. And that includes many reformed scholars which I suspect you might respect. That would include learned men like R.C. Sproul

"Jacob’s lack of love for Leah is even clearer in today’s passage. We read in verse 31 that she was “hated,” a word that in context means “loved less” (v. 30)" R.C. Sproul.

Do you think he doesn't know what he is talking about?

Philly Dawg

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2018, 03:20:04 AM »

I would say, in this case, yes! He doesn't know what he is talking about because he's contradicting God.
  Kellyanne Conway: Sometimes Trump Lies Because
 He Doesn't Know the Truth, Okay?

Peng Bao

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2018, 07:08:42 PM »
Do you think he doesn't know what he is talking about?

I'd say he's trying to explain away God's hatred in terms of man's hatred in order to placate human sensibilities. The biggest problem I see is when Preachers try to conform God's righteous hatred to man's finite ideas of virtue. God's hatred is perfect and justified, man's is not.


TO BETTY:
   This is what God says he hates.

Proverbs 6:19
"A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren".

God hates false witnesses or liars and he also hates anyone who sows discord among the brethren. Not the sin, he hates those who do this. Like it or not, God hates.

Betty

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2018, 06:43:18 AM »
Betty,
How can you say God doesn’t hate people, when it clearly states God hated Esau? Esau is a person, right? I mean you completely ignored the verse Melanie posted.

I didn't ignore the scripture anymore than she ignored the scripture I gave. The reason I can say what I said is because hate is evil and the scripture I gave you shows God is love.

Betty

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Re: Hating the Haters of God
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2018, 06:48:00 AM »

TO BETTY:
   This is what God says he hates.

Proverbs 6:19
"A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren".

God hates false witnesses or liars and he also hates anyone who sows discord among the brethren. Not the sin, he hates those who do this. Like it or not, God hates.

The question is the meaning of the word hate as R.C. Sproul explained, not whether God does it. He loves sinners "less than" he loves the saved.

 


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