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Author Topic: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do  (Read 1351 times)

Reformer

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 06:23:44 PM »

How can you say that? He is praying for the forgiviness of those who crucified him. What contradition do you speak of?


Betty, you have to think of it this way. Why this appeal to the Father for forgiveness of those he knows is condemned for this transgression? It makes no sense. It would be like asking the father to not condemn the Devil. But Christ knows the Devil will be cast into the lake of fire, as he does those who crucified him. All except the elect.

So surely you understand that Christ certainly did not mean with this prayer, "Lord, just forget all this heinous sin by man against you and Me and just move on?" The pardon of God doesn't work that way.


 

Betty

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 07:02:31 PM »

Hmmmmm. Well this is a long interesting conversation that I admit has been food for thought. But why couldn't he just forgive them all as an example to us of forgiveness? Remember, he has said that we should forgive our enemies.  Thus he could be giving us an example of this. That's what I've always been taught it means.

Tony Warren

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2013, 08:15:57 PM »
>>>
Hmmmmm. Well this is a long interesting conversation that I admit has been food for thought. But why couldn't he just forgive them all as an example to us of forgiveness? Remember, he has said that we should forgive our enemies.  Thus he could be giving us an example of this. That's what I've always been taught it means.
<<<

Well, for one reason (out of of many), because it would be impossible for a just and Holy God to do. Does that surprise you? What so many Christians (and sad to say, many teachers and theologians as well) don't seem to understand is that forgiveness of sin REQUIRES a reckoning, payment, wages, propitiation. God can't violate His own laws. God is just and holy, which means that His mercy and grace are never at the expense of His justice and righteousness. Think about it! If God could merely say to all, "your sins are forgiven," without propitiation, then we wouldn't need a Saviour in the first place. We need a Saviour "specifically" because no sin can just be wiped out without the shedding of the blood of Christ in payment. And if a propitiation is needed, and was given them, then they have no sin and are thus all saved. So unless you're teaching universalism, that cannot be true. We can't have it both ways, as that would be confusion. Christ went to the cross and paid for all our sins, once, and for all.

Hebrews 10:10
  • "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Once, for all. Since there was no partial payment for man just for this one specific sin, then that argument is without any merit. No matter how carefully crafted the justifications are. It was once and for all. So we must then understand that "THIS" is the only way that the Father could forgive "them" who knew not what they had done.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Christopher Henson

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2013, 01:46:09 AM »
What so many Christians (and sad to say, many teachers and theologians as well) don't seem to understand is that forgiveness of sin REQUIRES a reckoning, payment, wages, propitiation. God can't violate His own laws. God is just and holy, which means that His mercy and grace are never at the expense of His justice and righteousness. Think about it! If God could merely say to all, "your sins are forgiven," without propitiation, then we wouldn't need a Saviour in the first place. We need a Saviour "specifically" because no sin can just be wiped out without the shedding of the blood of Christ in payment. And if a propitiation is needed, then they have no sin and all are saved.

 :amen: Wow! I'll bet you were a great debater in High school. :)

 That cinches it for me. I never thought of that. I am officially a convert to this understanding of the Luke 23:34 text.

Jason

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 03:15:37 AM »
So you're saying it couldn't be a prayer that the father forgive them this particular act, but not the rest of their sins throughout life?

 Matthew 19:26
 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible".



Tony Warren

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 08:02:41 AM »
>>>
So you're saying it couldn't be a prayer that the father forgive them this particular act, but not the rest of their sins throughout life?

 Matthew 19:26
 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible".
<<<

Is it possible that God could lie, be unrighteous or make the blood of bulls take away your sins?

Hebrews 10:4
  • "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

So then the answer is no. God sets parameters and limits that He will not cross, making it impossible. Therefore, God defines what is possible with Him, and what is not possible, not man's wishful thinking. It is not possible that sin can be forgiven by a righteous God without atonement.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Betty

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 10:08:02 AM »
I don't know that I believe that you have to be saved to be forgiven. It may be possible to be forgiven but not saved. In other words, forgiven but not reconciled to God.



Erik Diamond

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 12:56:37 PM »
Quote
It may be possible to be forgiven but not saved. In other words, forgiven but not reconciled to God.

Bible, please, Betty! Show us the Scripture that says God forgive unsaved people?! If you cannot prove it, then your position is wrong.

Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Christopher Henson

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 03:47:42 PM »
I don't know that I believe that you have to be saved to be forgiven. It may be possible to be forgiven but not saved. In other words, forgiven but not reconciled to God.

That doesn't sound right to me Betty. Forgiven, but not saved? If we're talking about men, I'm sure that could be true. But not with God. I don't think it would be possible to be forgiven and not saved unless forgiveness was being done by someone other than God. Because as the brothers said before, forgiven for what? Just one sin? That just doesn't work biblically.

"Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Psalm 79:9"

 Purge away our sins, not sin. If you could find a scripture that says God purged away one sin, then you might have a case. But God purged all our sins. Right?


aquatic

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2013, 04:42:56 PM »
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen asked God to forgive for one sin. This seems strange and I can't put into words why.

Reformer

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2013, 05:40:34 PM »
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen asked God to forgive for one sin. This seems strange and I can't put into words why.


Stephen is not God. He's a man, just like you and I. And so of course we are all told to pray for our enemies, and to love our enemies. That's not the same. Our prayer is ultimately for their salvation. Not to God to simply "skip" a sin. 

 Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

None of this means these we pray for are forgiven, but it's the attitude God wants us to have of charity or love. But this is mixing apples and oranges. You can't equate Holy God with a mere mortal asking God for forgiveness for someone about to murder us. I'd pray for their forgiveness also, but that doesn't mean that they will be forgiven, unless they become saved. And that is ultimately what we are praying for when we ask God to forgive them. We are demonstrating our love.

Can you explain "by scripture" How God will forgive a murderer one single sin, without atoning for it, when the wages of sin is death? How? Where is your scriptural support for that?  It doesn't make sense. God doesn't pick 1 or 2 sins to forgive the wicked, that doesn't make any sense at all. He's not schizophrenic. He either forgives them or He doesn't forgive them. Nor is there any scriptures in support of peacemeal forgiveness. God's not arbitrary, he has a plan. That idea is just something people think up out of their own mind because they don't understand a scripture. But we can't just make up doctrines. Forgiveness comes by the cross alone. So explain how what you assume is even possible?

aquatic

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2013, 09:50:18 PM »
Reformer, I agree with you. Forgiveness is only thru the cross. I posted the verse, because I thought it would add to the discussion.
When Stephen is praying for the Lord, to not lay this sin to their charge, the only way they could not be charged is if they would be included in God's salvation plan.
Sin must be accounted for either by the individual in Hell or by Christ. That's what I see from the verse and I think that's how you are explaining it in your third paragraph.

john

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2013, 12:01:25 AM »
Quote
I don't know that I believe that you have to be saved to be forgiven. It may be possible to be forgiven but not saved. In other words, forgiven but not reconciled to God.

There are probably some terms that are doing double-duty and are ill-defined here. If God has forgiven your sins - then you are positionally saved. Saved from what? From the wrath of God and eternal suffering. When do you get saved? Is it when you first believe or prior to this when the Holy Spirit regenerates your spirit or prior to this when Christ died on the cross as the propitiation for your sins or only in the future upon the completion of your salvation when you are in a glorified spiritual body?

Well, God says that when the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit God has "saved us".

Tit 3:5-6
(5)  not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
(6)  whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior


God also says that our spirit is saved from judgment on that Day of Judgment:

1Co 5:5
(5)  to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


He also says that in calling upon God for forgiveness - we are then saved:

1Co 1:18
(18)  For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.


There is also the sense that salvation is a process. We are saved and being saved:

1Co 1:18
(18)  For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.


In any use of the word "saved" the only one that it applies to are the elect. They are the ones chosen by the Father, given to the Son, redeemed by the Son on the cross, and have the Holy Spirit apply this salvation, and are saved via sanctification - a process, and then saved from the trial of Judgment Day and the wrath of God, and saved entirely in a glorified body for eternity.

So, you can't be 'saved' in the manner than God uses the word unless God intended to forgive your sins (which He did before you or the world was created) - for being saved is "in Christ", meaning by and through His work of propitiation on the cross (hence, not your work). Men will forgive other men without payment simply because both acknowledge that they are unrighteous and are no better than any other. But God IS Holy and Righteous - He can't save anyone who is not also to be forgiven, for the necessity of punishment is mandatory. Someone has to 'pay' for the crime - either the sinner or Christ, without the payment made in full there is no forgiveness.

However, the church today has muddied the waters with their false gospels. Thus, we have "carnal Christians" who are supposed to be saved but still living in continuing worldliness. This of course is simply a corruption of what it means to be "saved". These false gospels teaches that you are saved when you "accept" Christ. The true gospel teaches you are saved by the power of God alone (not by what you've said or done) and this only because Christ has "accepted" you. The false salvation has the cart pulling the horse - which men much prefer, as it is a matter of pride to make humans the first cause, rather than God.

But, we could also say that prior to an elect person's realization (conversion experience wherein the recognize that they are saved) of their new position in Christ - they were forgiven (in Christ) but did not know they were saved. There is not an actual delay but rather a period of realization that follows regeneration - they were saved but they didn't know it fully, not immediately. This may seem strange to the "accept" Jesus crowd - since they assume the moment the magic words are spoken they have instantly obtain salvation. Since this isn't salvation their "acceptance" of Jesus is meaningless. In reality, for many people, there is no one moment of salvation but a dawning of awareness of their new spirit and new desire - which eventually culminates in a measured difference that grows to the point it cannot be ignored - you are no longer the person you used to be. This conversion moment may be a point in time but the actual moment that the Holy Spirit "saved" your spirit is unknown to you. Yet God knows.

Amongst men, you can be "forgiven" but the animosity continues and you really aren't "reconciled", as the relationship is not restored. I think many people take the failed way that people are treated by others, such as their parents or siblings, and apply the folly of men to God. It is hard for some to believe that God could actually forgive them AND they be fully reconciled to God, for they have no example in their lives to compare it to. Perhaps an unloving father was their model - now they look at God and think He could never actually love them. I think this bringing God down to earth is common and reflects a shallow knowledge of who God is and His divine nature. The church has not taught the holiness of God - it just teaches some shallow sentimentalism about "love", which leads people to equate the shallow love that people have to be somehow parallel or similar to God's love. It is not.

The net effect of all this: people in the church simply take their life experiences, good and bad, and then say "that is what God is like too". Thus, we have God forgiving people but not really - because He's still upset and won't reconcile them (unless they do some act of contrition). We have people supposedly "saved" who behave just like the world - which lead people to think salvation can be gained and lost willy-nilly (in reality you can't lose salvation because you didn't earn it). The world hates and loves based on performance. God doesn't. He loves based on the performance of His Son, it has nothing to do with you. His ways are not ours.

Unless the professing Christian gives up the idea that they can apply human standards to God they will be worshiping an idol that exists only in their heads. When God forgives He reconciles us to Him, and we are thereby saved for all eternity. Nothing can remove us from God's love - nothing we do or say will change our salvation or cause God to love us any less - not one iota. A great many Christians need to replace the idol they formulated in their heads based on earthly experiences with the true God of the Bible. How many are out there foolishly trying to 'earn' their salvation and fear losing God's love? It's a shame and the church at large is without excuse.

john




Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Pilgrim

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2013, 07:56:05 AM »
 :nicethread:
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

yaboo

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Re: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 11:20:47 AM »

I dunno. God could forgive one sin if he wanted to. We can't put God in a box. We should never say can't.

 


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