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Author Topic: What is Eschatology and is it Important?  (Read 13961 times)

Stan Pat

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2012, 12:55:17 PM »
Like Calvinism, it's usually well-meant, but (in my view) unnecessary, unbiblical and confuses common people, rather than enlighten the masses. Which I believe is the whole point. But some people (like with the term Calvinism) swear that it's a helpful term, so...

 To each his own, huh? I don't like the phrase either. Personally, I think some theologians try too hard.


spices51

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 10:55:11 AM »
     

         Should we attend a church that has differences in eschatological views?(end time prophecies) I have read a thread on this ,and what was said , was it didn't matter. In fact they said it was non essential. I believe every word of God is essential as it is God word & truth. I personally would not want to attend a church that has half truths of God .

Chicago Bear

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2014, 03:03:52 PM »
     
         Should we attend a church that has differences in eschatological views?(end time prophecies) I have read a thread on this ,and what was said , was it didn't matter. In fact they said it was non essential. I believe every word of God is essential as it is God word & truth. I personally would not want to attend a church that has half truths of God .

Thank you Admin for adding this to the previous thread. It gave me added insight.

Spices51,
    I do not think that an Amillennialist should attend a Dispensational Church or a Preterist Church. For me, the Jury's out on Postmillennialism, depending upon what flavor it is. Some are pretty bad. And basically for the same reasons Tony gave in his post to Beechwood.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=281.0

I also believe it is essential to have the correct view of the Kingdom. Dispensationalists believe in two salvation programs and are sitting around waiting for Christ to come back to earth to save the nation of Israel apart from the church. That's a pretty bad reading of scripture on so many different levels. My question would be, isn't that the same eschatology that the Jews had. And how is it in any way compatible with Christ's teachings of the kingdom. In fact, he taught against it. So how is it a non essential?
Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Brian

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2014, 06:08:27 PM »
     

         Should we attend a church that has differences in eschatological views?(end time prophecies) I have read a thread on this ,and what was said , was it didn't matter.


That seems to be the prevailing point of view these days. That it is optional and doesn't really add anything nor matter what view you hold. I don't know why christians think that way, but they do. To your question, I wouldn't attend a church that is Premillennial, Preterist or Postmillennial, so I guess that about covers it all. So my answer is no, we shouldn't attend a church that holds to a different eschatological view. I know they say that it's a non essential, but I've just hit a brick wall with people holding these views and I can't bring myself to believe they are spirit led. I would say find a church that teaches amillennialism. There are still many of them around. You just have to drive further.

Here's a link also saying eschatology is not a non essential.

http://reformationcartoons.blogspot.com/2013/02/from-vault-test-of-blessed-note.html


Johnny

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 06:18:00 AM »

No, It's not essential to sanctification or faith. The essentials are that we believe on Christ and keep the faith.

Curtis

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 07:15:08 AM »

No, It's not essential to sanctification or faith. The essentials are that we believe on Christ and keep the faith.

 :amen:

I believe that there are different views of eschatology that can all be considered orthodox. Therefore it should not be a cause for division.

Johnny

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 08:16:51 AM »
Matthew 12:30
 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."


Doesn't this scripture teach against a unity that is against what Christ teaches?

No. It teaches that those who are not of Christ are enemies of Christ. Nothing more. Those who are intolerant of other Christian opinions are on the wrong track and are ultimately judgmental.

ray

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2014, 07:58:29 AM »
Quote
I believe that there are different views of eschatology that can all be considered orthodox. Therefore it should not be a cause for division

I disagree, with at least four diametrically opposed views[Ammilenialism, Premillenialism, Postmillenialism and Preterism] how can you possibly claim that all can be considered orthodox.Common sense should dictate that only one of these views can be biblicaly correct.
       This push for unity at the expense of truth is no unity at all, I believe the only unity is that which is found in the truth of Gods word.There will and should be divisions , until believers are separated from those who keep on watering down the truth.

Trotter

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2014, 02:37:35 AM »
Should we attend a church that has differences in eschatological views?

I'll answer that question with another question. Is it important that we understand correctly how Christ saves, when he establishes his kingdom, what his reign is, how he bound Satan, for what reason, when he will return, and for what reason? If It's important, how can we say it doesn't matter what eschatology a church teaches? That's what correct eschatology is. The true story of the kingdom of Christ.

Tony Warren

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2014, 04:37:10 AM »
>>>
No, It's not essential to sanctification or faith. The essentials are that we believe on Christ and keep the faith.
<<<

The nation of Israel believes in a Christ also--just not the Christ of the Bible. They have faith also--just not the faith of the Bible. Which begs the question, is their Christ the same as our Christ? Many professing Christians hold the eschatological viewpoint that He is the same Christ. So then, rationally speaking, is "their" Christ the same as our Christ. Think about it.

The only point I'm making is this. Is a Christ that spoke of establishing an earthly kingdom where He will come back to earth to reign in the middle east, the same Christ as the Christ of the Bible? My Christ never said that and so the answer is no. Is a Christ that has two separate holy people, two separate Covenant Israelis (one Jew and strangely one Gentile) the same Christ as the Christ of the Bible? My Christ never preached that so my answer is no. In fact, My Christ preached the exact opposite of that in declaring Gentiles were now included with the Jews so that there is now one Israel, one Olive tree, neither Jew or Gentile in covenant relationship to Him. So either they are two different Christs, or one of us is teaching falsely about what Christ actually declares.

You say it's not essential to sanctification or faith. Everything the Word of God teaches is essential to sanctification and faith. Christ made no optional teachings that weren't important to our faith and understanding, to our sanctification or to our spiritual growth. Therefore, I think it is downright foolish to declare that eschatology is a non-essential. That's like saying the eschatology of the Jewish nation is not essentially different from the eschatology of the Christian nation. You can't have it both ways. Either there is one Israel of God, one New Covenant, with one Christ ruling over God's children, or there are two with two different children. God said one of these, He never said the otrher. Our job is to find out which.

It we had a more sound approach to eschatology, I think many Christians would not be hindered in their coming to sound conclusions on other crucial matters of doctrine. The fact is, sound eschatology reflects sound theology and an honest view of the work and mission of Christ. If we don't believe that eschatology in doctrine is vitally important and directly impacts our understanding of the whole Bible, I don't know what book we are reading. Seriously! I honestly believe that how we handle scripture reflects what eschatology we hold. Do we approach the Bible attentively, honestly and humbly or do we merely Claim we do while approaching it dismissively, what God calls deceitfully or pridefully? Do we really consider scripture and have an honest disagreement of what it actually says or do we have no intention of honestly considering what scripture says and are content with our tradition and self-serving justifications? There's no hiding in the rocks to avoid God. We may play innocent, but our God has swords for eyes and they pierce even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, that He can discern between the joints and marrow. His sword is His Spirit and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. In other words, He is not mocked by what people may claim. To me, understanding scripture as ultimately and completely "authoritative" is essential to orthodoxy as well as orthopraxy. So in my humble opinion, sound eschatology, theology and soteriology are not only inseparable, they are essential.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2014, 05:01:23 AM »
>>>
Matthew 12:30
 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

Doesn't this scripture teach against a unity that is against what Christ teaches?

No. It teaches that those who are not of Christ are enemies of Christ. Nothing more. Those who are intolerant of other Christian opinions are on the wrong track and are ultimately judgmental.
<<<

It teaches infinitely more. Christ is putting forth the Biblical principle that there can only be one Christ, and if you will not stand with Him, then you stand against Him. It teaches that (unlike churches understanding today) there is no middle ground where you can straddle the line, or where you can stand in a gray area, or where you can stand with groups that oppose His teachings with vain platitudes like "church unity." As for example the Dispensationalists do. Because if you stand against Christ's Words of the kingdom, in essence you make Christ a liar.

Luke 17:20-21
  • "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  • Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

When Christians say, "but it indeed does come with observation, where you can indeed say it is over here in Israel," they make Christ a liar.  In plain English, when the Kingdom comes, it won't be so you can observe it over there in the physical city of Jerusalem. Christ is clearly saying that it's a spiritual kingdom and not a earthly kingdom so as to be observed. Really, how much plainer can Christ say it? And in case anyone still might not understand, Christ elaborates on it declaring that when it comes it is "within you." It's not a kingdom that will be found over here or over there, but a Spiritual one that is found inside you where Spiritually you live and reign with Christ. Again, how much plainer can it be said?

What shall we say then, "You are wrong God, because our church teaches that when the Kingdom of Christ comes, it will be observable because it will be established in the Middle Eastern land of Israel where all will see it." Or shall we say "Wrong, it is not a kingdom within us by the Spirit of Christ, because our church teaches Christ's Kingdom is a physical one over there in the political nation, a physical holy land that is inhabited by physical Jews (according to the flesh)."

Which is exactly what Dispensationalists (in essence) postulate, and declare very arrogantly that it is unadulterated truth. But that which is against what Christ says, is that which is by nature against Christ.

Matthew 12:30
  • "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

If we are not gathering with Christ into His Kingdom now, we are scattering people away or driving people out of it. You can liken this to the figure of gathering sheep together into the fold or those who scatter sheep that they may not gather together. This teaches that there is no neutrality, there is no holding to both one doctrine and also to another, or preaching one kingdom and allowing another alongside. Christ said that "a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand." His kingdom is not this fabled kingdom of men that is said to come with observation or that comes in a way where it is observable by the world. Christ's kingdom is observable by the Spirit within us, whose face always beholds the throne of God. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2014, 05:11:59 AM »
>>>
I believe that there are different views of eschatology that can all be considered orthodox. Therefore it should not be a cause for division.
<<<

This is also incorrect. Orthodoxy "by definition" cannot be two totally different eschatologies, as it is supposed to represent what has been handed down as true and correct by the early church. So that if one doctrine is different from the other (Premillennial/Amillennial), both cannot possibly be true and correct, and so both can not be orthodox. True orthodoxy is doctrines that conform to the Christian faith as represented in the Holy Bible. Not as represented by modern authors, counsels, traditions, Televangelists or player cloth waving religious hucksters.

Jude 1:3
  • "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

That's church orthodoxy. The faith of old, the faith delivered once and forever to the saints. It's not an ewver-evolving or changing Christian faith, it is the same doctrines that was delivered to the apostles and which they all held. The faith revealed in Scripture, not by dispensationalists. It continues...

Jude 1:4
  • "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

Thus God gives the church a warning that as those servants of His once delivered out of Israel fell away, so His servants today should take heed of men who creep in among them to undermine orthodoxy, the faith delivered once unto the saints. This it is a falling away from orthodoxy when those of the church change beliefs based on Scripture, decide to add to God's Word or to take away from God's Word, wrest or twist God's Word to suit their own agenda, or compromise God's Word for love of vaunted authors. Please do not confuse the various diverse doctrines (like Dispensationalism or Premillennialism) with Biblical orthodoxy.

Premillinnial, Amillennial, Postmillennial and Preterist are 4 completely different doctrines, thus they cannot be one orthodox doctrine. At best only one is righteous and true. At worst all are wrong. There's no other option here. Only one can be the truth of God's Word. I encourage the brethren not to neglect that Fact!. Moreover, do not suppose that we can't "really" tell which one is true, for God is not the author of confusion or of a non-understandable echatology.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Joe Johnson

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2014, 06:18:22 AM »
Come on guys, eschatology doesn't affect anyone's salvation. In fact there is more harm done by bad spiritualizing eschatology than anything else. Better to just relax and preach Christ crucified.

Tony Warren

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2014, 09:22:00 AM »
>>>
Come on guys, eschatology doesn't affect anyone's salvation.
<<<

No one said it did. But neither did Lot's act of drunkeness affect his salvation, but that doesn't mean that what he did was unimportant. Neither did David's act of murder affect his salvation, but that doesn't mean that what he did was unimportant. Neither does telling a lie affect anyone's salvation, etc., etc. This because salvation is a "unmerited" gift of God, an act of grace and not of our own good works. Nevertheless, it's ungodly to be drunken, to murder or to tell a lie, isn't it? It's not something that God wants you to do, is it? If you went around murdering people, would you be someone who should be associated with the doctrines of Christ? Our fruits are not the reason for our salvation, but they certainly can collectively be an "evidence" for or against our salvation. Or as Christ put it, a tree is known by its fruits.

Luke 6:43-46
  • "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
  • For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
  • A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
  • And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

That's not to say we look at people and judge by appearances, but it is to say that a good tree isn't filled with corrupt fruit. Nor is a corrupt tree filled with good fruit. Else it wouldn't be a corrupt tree. That's not a "meaningless" thing Christ says, because it is the heart of man that reveals his true nature. Is ours a heart that has an "earnest" desire to do the will of God, or is it one that desires to be like the crowd, ignores scripture and exalts its leaders words over God's? Eschatology may not affect anyone's salvation, but it sure is a token of the hermeneutic or system by which he approaches God's Word. My belief is, you cannot be a knowledgeable theologian and hold to Dispensationalism without handling the scriptures deceitfully (dishonestly), with guile, pretense and duplicity. No matter what "this" Pastor or "that" theologian claims about it being a peripheral issue.


Quote
>>>
In fact there is more harm done by bad spiritualizing eschatology than anything else.
<<<

Actually, the truth is, in our day there is more the bad eschatologies of Dispensationalism and Premillennialism than anything else, and that is hardly spiritualiziung (Except when they deem it should be). The unpalatable reason it is so popular is specifically because it is an eschatology of the flesh or carnality. That is to say, it appeals to the physical, the flesh, the natural man, the observable, the eye, the national and worldly prophecies and lusts, rather than to a biblical (Spiritual) understanding. Worldly kingdoms versus spiritual ones, world nations versus the only true Holy nation. Earthly battles and warfare versus the real and relevant spiritual battles and warfare. As saith the preacher, nothing changes. Israel looked for the same earthly battles, restoration of kingdoms and earthly ruling kings, just as Dispensationalist do. But to what avail? But Christ just kept "spiritualizing" eschatology, and we'd do well to follow in His footsteps.

Matthew 16:19
  • "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Luke 8:9-10
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
  • And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."

God's servants are given keys and are witnesses to open up the kingdom to men, not as men define keys and kingdoms, but as God defines them. We are witnesses to this Kingdom, not convincers of it. That is left up to the Spirit of God. If those of the Church don't have the Spirit of truth, they won't receive the witness of the Spirit of truth. That's the short and long of it. Whatsoever is bound and loosed on earth through witnessing, has already been bound and loosed in heaven. We are merely ambassadors, envoys, representatives, emissaries and ministers.


Quote
>>>
 Better to just relax and preach Christ crucified.
<<<

Preaching Christ crucified of necessity involves preaching the God breathed Kingdom of Christ for which He was crucified, and by His crucifixion exists. Not the one of born of Jewish dreams, fables, authors and movie producers--the one of the Bible.

Matthew 12:28-30
  • "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  • Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
  • He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

 You say better to just relax and preach Christ crucified, I say eschatology is preaching Christ crucified.
 
Matthew 21:43
  • "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Did the crucifixion of Christ result in the taking away of the Kingdom from these? If we believe in God's Word it did. How then can you separate the two, to neglect to preach either one or the other?
 
"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

canada

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Re: What is Eschatology and is it Important?
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 10:28:42 PM »
Amen to your comments brother Warren.

 


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