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Author Topic: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here  (Read 2952 times)

Betty

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Since no one answered my last question, I have another. Why can't we have Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Protestants come here and discuss the scriptures intelligently with reasoned debate. Wouldn't a dialogue be what is helpful for everyone? The Christian to better understand the non Christian, and maybe for the non christian to be witnessed to?

Tony Warren

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Re: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 10:44:15 AM »
>>>
Since no one answered my last question...
<<<

Betty, I think people have more than answered your questions. But as is usually the case with people who don't like the answers given, they become oblivious to them. You're so sure you are right, you can't see the forest for the trees.

Proverbs 29:19
  • "A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer."

Though people understand the words of the Bible, the chastisement and reproof of it is not answered or addressed. Instead it is feigned "just words" that aren't answers at all. From the beginning of time there has been this response (or non response) to the truth.


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...I have another. Why can't we have Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Protestants come here and discuss the scriptures intelligently with reasoned debate.
<<<

Short Answer: Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Protestants can't discus scriptures together intelligently that they would come to reasoned truth and agreement, because they all have very different authorities.

Long Answer: There are plenty of forums where people of different faiths/non-faiths can pretend to discuss the different doctrines intelligently and with an open mind, but I have never really witnessed such a forum that actually succedes in this. And I've pretty much witnessed them all. There is always the guarded disdain for the truth, it is sometimes mocked, disregarded or ridiculed, and when it is not, slight-of-hand in such arenas is the rule, not the exception. I see no benefit in such communion for the faithful conscientious Christian. Emphasis on Conscientious. Neither faith nor evangelism requires vain debate with the philosophies of men.

Colossians 2:7-8
  • "Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
  • Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The only way to truly debate the Bible is by the bible, all parties being subject to its supreme authority. Conscientious Christians must make sure their root is in the faith, that they are on guard against the enemies of Christ coming as Messengers of light. Whether Pagan or Jewish, Christian or Muslim, they all come with enticing philosophies of men to deceive. We must beware of them because these camps cause God's people to go astray by their warped theologies, speculations, humanistic beliefs and convictions. What's the difference between all these and true debate? The difference is the hermeneutic or system by which they agree to come to their conclusions. Are they agreed to follow the teaching of what is "actually" in the Bible, or are they mind set on teaching that which they have interpreted the Bible to Mean--even though it doesn't actually say it? will we discuss vain/worthless/empty doctrines or philosophies from outside of the Bible, or noble doctrines "honestly" gleaned from within the Bible? There is a difference between teaching man's ideas as God's (deceit), things which cannot be found in scripture, and teaching things which are witnessed as the word itself. One is philosophy, opinion or private interpretation. The other is faithful testimony. Debate is fine, so long as we are all on the same page, using the same hermeneutic. Else it is just a endless merry-go-round of point-counterpoint. The spirits must be tried by matching their words "carefully" to the word of God. If it is not their authority, then it is fruitless, useless, dishonest debate.

2nd Corinthians 8:21
  • "Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men."

Honesty, nobility, as the Bereans had to listen first and then search the scriptures to see if what was being said is true. Today people listen to sermons with a Bible nowhere in sight, or if it is, it is just there for show. They don't check anything that is said, they simply decide for themselves if it "sounds right" or makes them "feel good."

Isaiah 30:10
  • "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

Communion with false teachers may make people feel good, but it is not biblically justified. The rudiments of this world, the worldly arrangements that the ungodly are so wrapped up in, have people so wrapped up in words that they don't distinguish between God's word from their own. Debate with the world won't change that, it only exacerbate the situation. Christians are so esily spoiled (or taken by conquest) today or lead away from the truth in useless debates between different faiths, because they have no root. When the debates are over, they are father away from truth than they were before they started listening. There is nothing worse than a smorgasborg of doctrines that babes in Christ should pick and choose which sounds best, or decide by which orator has the best speaking style. These things are not after Christ, not according to the doctrines handed down by the fathers. And that is why God says "Beware" that these not spoil you through their vain (self centered empty philosophy) and self-justifying proclamations.


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Wouldn't a dialogue be what is helpful for everyone? The Christian to better understand the non Christian, and maybe for the non christian to be witnessed to?
<<<


Our commission/mission is not to be better understood by atheists, agnostics or other religions. It is not to join in communion with false gospels, support Judaism or to say God bless you to Roman Catholicism. The only one who benefits from such assemblies would be Satan, the great deceiver. If you take on Christ's name, you had better take on His righteousness. For many want to be called by His name, and not wear His clothing.

Matthew 24:4-5
  • "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
  • For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Can you imagine God telling Jeroboam, "you know you really should go over to the people who worship Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have a dialog with them so that they can better understand?" God Forbid! But you see, this is the type of vain philosophy in the Churches of today that I am talking about. The humanist philosophy of, we've got a better idea of what love is than God does. Let's try this! ergo, let's try divorce, because staying together doesn't work. Let's try dialog with Roman Catholics, because we're all Christians? Or let's try women pastors, they can't do any worse job than men, Let's try not spanking our children. Let's try Christian Rock and bring in young people. The list is endless. The vain philosophies of men circumventing God's laws "THINKING" they know better. Man sitting in the Holy Temple ruling "as if" he were God. It is here!

Bottom line, to welcome all systems, methodologies, doctrines, modes of interpretation, into one big free for all, is anarchy. To have an honest debate, all debaters have to agree to a system of sound hermeneutics. Of the Bible being infallible, of the Bible being its own interpreter and of the Bible being unable to contradict itself. ie, no scripture can make another scripture null and void.

That effectively rules out your assembly of these diverse doctrinal organizations. Without guidelines we'd either have:

#1. an "endless" ongoing debate by Presbyterians against Methodist doctrines, and by Baptists against Lutheran doctrines, and Reformed against Roman catholic doctrines, Premillennial against those with Amillennial doctrines. Right down to endless arguments against how much water is necessary for a actual Christian Baptism. We would never come to any consensus because we all start out with different methodologies of Church tradition and unjustified presuppositions.

Or

#2. we'd have an endless love fest where every doctrine would neglect to contend for the faith and just parrot the line, "we're all God's children" so let's just hold hands, sing kumbaya, pray, and not get into serious issues that cause divisions.

Yes, we can be oblivious to the fact that divisions were placed between us "by Christ" long ago, but that doesn't change the fact. And the "diverse" camps can never be joined together under the banner of the same Christ because we would never come to any consensus because of different authorities. T

Neither way would result in Christian edification, only in #1. Division or #2. Apostasy.

Yes, anyone can call for dialog, and anyone can call on the name of the Lord, but only the true Spirit filled, blood washed, new natured saints will receive the witness of truth in love. No, such dialog is not helpful for the cause of Christ. No, it does not produce better understanding for anyone. No, it is not good for witnessing the Christian doctrine. But it is an opportunity for our pearls to be trampled under foot, and for enmity against Christ. What's the point.


Bunyan

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Re: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 11:15:57 AM »
Short Answer: Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Protestants can't discus scriptures together intelligently that they would come to reasoned truth and agreement, because they all have very different authorities.


Amen! It's an excercise in futility! If you can't have the Bible as the ultimate arbiter, you can't have a profitable discussion. And none of those groups, including some Protestant, hold to that formula.
"The law says, 'do this,' and it is never done. Grace
says, 'believe in this,' and everything is already done
."
- Martin Luther

Betty

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Re: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 03:28:25 AM »
 Luke 6:27
"But I say to you who give ear to me, Have love for those who are against you, do good to those who have hate for you,"
 
Don't say I never give scripture, I do give scripture. Some people don't fear dialog. I would suggest open minded people pick up this book. Muslim Christian Dialogue by Kenneth Cragg

http://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Christian-Dialogue-Kenneth-Cragg/dp/0836190521

This is a well-structured, respectful exchange between two close friends, a Muslim and a Christian who discuss major points of belief and practice within their respective religions. Kateregga, formerly a professor of Islamic studies and currently the Ugandan ambassador in Saudi Arabia, outlines the core of the Muslim faith. After each chapter summary, there is a brief response by Shenk, who coordinates interfaith work for the Mennonite church in Pennsylvania; he points out shared values as well as essential differences from the Christian perspective. The second half of the book is patterned similarly, with Shenk outlining the essentials of Christian faith. An excellent introduction to the Muslim and Christian traditions and a valuable addition for most libraries.
 
Millions of Muslims and Christians are neighbors and worship the same God. Yet they seldom witness to each other, and the issues they deal with are profound. Rather than an antagonistic interaction, Badru D. Kateregga and David W. Shenk pioneer another way--that of authentic dialogue between friends.

William B

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Re: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 09:40:55 AM »
Betty,
  You're using dialog in the sense of simple conversation. Anyone can have a dialog like that with anyone else. I have conversations or dialog with Atheists every day on my job. But that's quite different from me trying to dialog with them about how their religion is false and how the Christian religion is true and the scriptures proving it. I can't have that type dialog with anyone who is trying to convert me to their religion, whether Atheist or any other type. Because that falls into the category of giving the riches of righteousness to someone who can't appreciate it. it is not only an exercise in futility as Bunyan said, but in ego, pride and rebellion.

 Matt. 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

You cannot give that which is holy unto people whose interest is really only to scorn it or to make it appear wrong.


Erik Diamond

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Re: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 02:05:28 AM »
Quote
Millions of Muslims and Christians are neighbors and worship the same God.

A big fat FALSE!  Muslims do NOT worship same God of Israel. Do you not realize that allah is NOT Jehovah! To believe that they both worship the same God is obviously deceived.  

Isaiah 9:6
  • For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Islamic scriptures teach that Jesus was simply a prophet and NEVER actually died on the cross. He is alleged to have departed from the cross before fully expiring. Muslims also hold that God can have no Son and no equal, as Christians allege in their doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God). We, as Elects of God, know their doctrines are false.  Jesus Christ was God Himself in Flesh and fulfilled what what He did for His People.  Yet Islamists denied it. Therefore, Islamists do not worship the same God we worship.  

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Why can't Christians, Muslims and Jews have a Dialogue Here
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 06:57:55 AM »
>>>
Betty,
  You're using dialog in the sense of simple conversation. Anyone can have a dialog like that with anyone else. I have conversations or dialog with Atheists every day on my job. But that's quite different from me trying to dialog with them about how their religion is false and how the Christian religion is true and the scriptures proving it.
<<<

Exactly right. And if you "were" to dialog about religion, as faithful witnesses of the whole counsel of God, inevitably you would have to show Jehovah God as the only true God, the only way to salvation, and bear faithful testimony of the abomination of all other gods before him. That doesn't make for happy dialog with people who don't want to hear unadulterated truth. They want you to smooth talk them, as if both or all gospels are legitimate. To them, heaven forbid you should actually faithfully witness to what the word says.

1st Kings 22:8
  • "And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so."

Why did the King of Israel say that to Jehoshaphat? it was because the prophet Micaiah didn't mince words, that which the Lord said, Micaiah faithfully testified to, whether it made the King "feel good" or not, because that is not the point of faithful witness.


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I can't have that type dialog with anyone who is trying to convert me to their religion, whether Atheist or any other type.
<<<

No, not in good conscience we can't. That is a blatant violation of God's word.

2nd John 1:10-11
  • "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
  • For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Many Christians today look upon that command as a mere suggestion and not  to be obeyed faithfully. In essence, this modernistic philosophy rewrites the word of God to mean, "If there come any unto you, and bring another doctrine, receive him freely into your house, have a open dialog with him, and don't forget to bid him God speed when he leaves because God loves everyone."

That is rebellion against God's word, but it is very typical of the modern day Christian's attitude about other gospels and false religions. The egotistical idea that, "maybe I can witness and save them, despite what God commands."


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 Matt. 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

You cannot give that which is holy unto people whose interest is really only to scorn it or to make it appear wrong.
<<<

Absolutely! Dogs and Swine spiritually represent that which is unclean, and in this instance the unsaved who are looking for carnal meant, and not your precious pearls or riches. These are they who will use your indiscreet labors as a cause against you to bring you injury. To turn around and rend or tear you. That verse is so misunderstood and often deemed to mean nothing in relationship to debating with unbelievers and other gospels. So many Christians cannot seem to really comprehend it because in their vanity they desire the glory of "arguing someone into the Kingdom of heaven." Which of course, is never going to happen. As you say, it is an exercise in futility, their own ego, pride and rebellion.

Proverbs 9:6-9
  • "Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
  • He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
  • Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
  • Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning."

The scorners of the gospel are incorrigible, signified by Christ as Dogs and Swine, illustrating their unclean and obstinate heart wherein there is little hope of the profit. The sense of this passage is that if we rebuke them with the gospel truth and they will "hate" you for it. And the reason is because they are at enmity with the Truth, which is Christ. Christians have to be reminded that some people will just not be benefited by the gospel message. Who will and who will not is all in the hands of God, not our hands. Scorners, swine, Dogs, whatever God calls them, will reject the gospel message and use it as a sword against you. he command "not to cast your pearls before Dogs and Swine because they will turn and tear you," is a precept given of God for a reason. Unfortunately, Christians so often choose to ignore it, choosing instead to act by what seems right in their own eyes. If someone is open to the gospel, or is a professed Christian willing to dialog, that is one matter. If someone is of another gospel, looking to Proselytize, give them no greeting. It's not our job better understand false gospels, nor to pull people out of them, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to witness to the truth, not to place it under foot to be trampled upon. And there is a difference.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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