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Author Topic: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism  (Read 34882 times)

Tony Warren

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2003, 06:49:52 AM »
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If you read my answers above, at least it gives you an understanding of how easy it is to explain the dispensational view and how it flows effortlessly which is why I am convinced it is God's original Word.
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Trust me, I read what you call your answers, and they weren't scripture based answers at all, they were more of your opinions and positional declarations. With all due respect, even by liberal standards Dispensationalism is one of the most complicated, twisted, and confusing doctrines ever devised. You say it flows effortlessly when in fact it is so convoluted that it is continually intricately folding in upon itself, contradiction upon contradiction. I have no doubt that you are convinced that it is God's original word, but the question remains, is it really? I'm sure that you know that simply being convinced of something doesn't make it so. Man will believe whatever he wants, but the question is, are we submitting to the authority of scripture to believe God's word or our own words? Is our heart prepared unto God's will, or our own will?

Proverbs 21:2
  • "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts."

Just saying a doctrine is correct doesn't prove you're right, the Word of God approves or disproves doctrine.


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20.4  Three classes of people will reign with Christ:
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This is simply more of your personal, unvalidated opinions. You keep making these declarations "as if" we are to just blindly accept your word of it, but where does the word of God say that? It doesn't say that, this is what seems right in your own eyes, not what the Bible actually says. The martyrs, the overcomers, and those who do not worship the beast "are the very same saints." To claim that they are three classes of Christians is a private interpretation. Because God never made such declarations, they are unbiblical. Not one jot or tittle about different classes has God ever said. It's just more of the convoluted interpretations that abound in this doctrine.


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"They lived"; Let us notice two things:
(1)   These people are not resurrected at the time of 20.4. Their resurrection is merely retraced here as an accomplished fact. John does not see them resurrected at that moment; he only acknowledges that they live.
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Correct. They were resurrected in Christ. They "lived" after they were dead because they had part in the First Resurrection. "God" acknowledges that these are the souls of those who have been "KILLED" yet who CLEARLY lived and reigned with Christ, while "THE REST OF THE DEAD" (unsaved) do not live again until after the thousand years. This is the First Resurrection. Do you want us to believe that it's not talking about the dead living again (resurrection)?

It's obvious that God is giving a narrative of Satan being bound that the nations would not be deceived [planao] (led astray), and all during this time period the souls of the martyred Saints live and reign with Christ. And afterward Satan is loosed. We don't have to intricately enfold this, we just "receive" the word of God for what it actually says.


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(2)   Those here who live include not only the resurrected but also those who are raptured alive;
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Where does the Bible say that? There is no alive rapture during the time satan is bound and these souls reign with Christ. You cannot just "add" that to the scriptures here. God says there quite explicitely that these are the "souls" of the martyrs. There is not a word there about a rapture, much less rapturing alive. You need to supply at least some scriptural basis for making these claims, as this forum is based on the principle of supplying scriptural basis for our doctrines.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

What scriptures do you supply that show that this verse speaks of those raptured alive? In truth, the "only" rapturing alive that the Bible speaks of is on "The Last Day" at "The Last Trumpet" as spelled out in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelations 10:6-7.


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20.5   "The first resurrection"-This does not necessarily mean that there is only one resurrection, nor does it denote that there are many resurrections. It simply signifies this as being the "best" resurrection.
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How convenient. No, it signifies the First Resurrection, implying a second. The first in order or the Preeminent (having the first position) Resurrection. And we don't need to even speculate, because God tells us clearly what it means if we are not attempting to confuse the issue, taking things out of context. God tells us unambiguously.

Colossians 1:18
  • "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
Acts 26:23
  • "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

WHERE is the ambiguity? Only in the minds of Dispensationalists. This is the First Resurrection, in which if the saints have part in, the SECOND death has no power over them. Didn't Christ say this explicitely? Christ's Resurrection is not the second, not the third, He HAD to be the First Resurrected from the dead. That is a prerequisite!

John 11:25
  • "Jesus said unto her, I Am The Resurrection and the Life. He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,
  • and whosoever that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believeth thou this?"[

The only question now is, what resurrection was he? The Only Biblical answer is, He was the First Resurrection. To say anything less, is to dabble in theological absurdity considering the relevant scriptures.

Revelation 20 says though they were dead, yet they lived and reigned as souls with Christ. i.e., they had part in His First Resurrection. You can ignore all these Biblical facts, but it most certainly doesn't change them.


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Hence the first resurrection is none other than the time of recompense
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If that be true, then the scriptures lie when calling Christ the first resurrection when at best (according to your teaching) He is not the first resurrected. Even though God explicitly says He is, you deny this out of hand. So who are we going to believe? God's Word, or your teaching?

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2003, 11:32:11 AM »
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'One Body' which is Christ Israel.

I believe that grafting nevertheless still preserves the nation and identify of Israel
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Where does scripture say that when God grafts Gentiles into Israel, they remain Gentiles still separated from the Jews? That's nonsense considering scripture that there is neither Jew or Gentile in Christ. God says they are not Jews or Greeks but are one body. We cannot simply deny God's Word just to hold to made made teachings.

Galatians 3:28
  • "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

The Covenant with Israel is through Christ. What shall we say then? That God is wrong because Dispensationalists teach that God does preserve Jews and Greeks in Christ? God forbid. We can either accept your word on it, or we receive God's word. But not both. Because that would be confusion. When we put on Christ, we take on the identity of Israel, one with that body, one Olive Tree, one chosen people of God, a peculiar or special group of people. God is no respecter of persons.

Colossians 3:11
  • "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

You claim God looks upon us in the body of Christ as Jews and non-Jews, but God Himself unambiguously contradicts this teaching. It is in fact blatantly contradictory to say such things. It is confusion to claim the Covenant Olive Tree of Israel has Gentiles grafted in, but it is still divided or separated on the basis of race, nationality, or blood-line genealogy. Christianity rests on the foundation that God is no respector of persons, and we all stand on the same ground or footing before God. We're all stinking rotten sinners every one of us. That's why God said that they are "NOT" all Israel who are Israel. And that is why He said they are not Jews who are Jews outwardly, but are Jews only when they are Jews inwardly. I didn't say that, God did. Because "only" in Christ are people truly Jews and truly of Israel. He is the seed that makes His people the Israel of God. His is the flesh that makes us all sons of God. These Dispensationalist doctrines are fatally flawed, because we Gentiles become Israel when we are in Christ. But don't take my word for it. Listen to the witness of God's word, because to deny it is to declare it untrue.

Ephesians 2:11-16
  • "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
  • That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
  • Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
  • And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Read it carefully and take in what God says, not what I say. There are not two bodies in Christ, one Jew and one Gentile. Clearly God says we, who were once Gentiles and separated from the commonwealth of Israel, are now fellow citizens and fellow heirs of the commonwealth of Israel. So it is futile to deny this.


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There is no special dispensation of time for the Salvation of Jewish people after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Understand, the Jew is first (not first and third)

Jews rejected being 1st, that is why they are 3rd now.
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Again, that is your private addition to God's word. But God never said that! You are "forcing" your words into God's mouth, and that leads to judgment. It's not a gray area, it's either black or white. You can't be lukewarm with God's word (Revelation 3:16) it either says it or it doesn't. There is no doctrine of, "Jews first and then Jews again third," ever mentioned by God. It is your man-made doctrine.

Romans 1:16
  • "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 2:9
  • "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"
Romans 2:10
  • "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:"

Shall we add to God's word and change this to read, "the Jew First, and then the Gentile, and Then the Jew again?" ..not if we are faithful followers of the word of God. No, they are not going to be first again.

Luke 13:28-30
  • "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
  • And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
  • And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last."

There is no third. That is wishful thinking. The Jews were first, now they are last and the Gentiles first. This is the truth of scripture in His TRUE dispensation of the gospel (Ephesians 1:9-10).


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This means that it is only the appearance of Christ Himself in His parousia that can save the nation of Israel, that is how fargone they are.
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To be sure, at the appearance of Christ, anyone who is not already saved is not going to be saved! For He comes at "The last Trump" of God to judge, not to Save. The time of salvation is now. The Church that will not "receive" the love of truth, will be judged (2nd Thessalonians 2:10-11)), and it will be on the last day. The last day is both the Rapture of the righteous, and the Judgment of the wicked. But again, don't take my word for it. Take the Witness of the Word.

John 6:44
  • "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at The last day."
John 12:48
  • "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in ]The last day."


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There are 3 groups: the Jews and the nations (gentiles) which are not saved, right now. and the Christians which are.
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On the contrary. There are only two kingdoms, and there always has been only two. All other kingdoms fit into these two primary kingdoms. The kingdom consisting of the Children of God, and the kingdom consisting of the children of the Devil. No other relevant kingdoms exist. That's why Satan was bound. To bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom of God, being delivered from the kingdom of darkness. i.e., First the Jew, and then the Gentiles. And when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, so (thus) all Israel shall be saved. There is nothing then left to save.


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But God never made any unconditional promises to the nation Israel to preserve it. If He had made such a promise, they would have never been destroyed as a nation the last 2000 years. The Israel nation was destroyed and scattered "BECAUSE" God never made a promise that it wouldn't be.

That is why it is not unconditional. It is conditional.
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And they willl never meet those conditions. Only in Christ can man meet the conditions. They are today as Anti-Christ as they have ever been in History. God is not going back to an old Testament system of ceremonial laws in national Israel. And they (except for the remnant) are not coming to the New Testament system. You can get "arrested" in Israel for the preaching of Christ today. Israel could never keep a conditional Covenant. And that is precisely why God promised a Saviour, a Deliverer out of Zion, a Redeemer. Because God was fully aware that Israel couldn't keep the conditions. no one could. Thus a remnant chosen by Grace will be saved from out of the nation of Israel. And from every nation. ..as it is to this day.


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There are no good nations. There is only the Chosen (elect) people of nations made good by having been washed in the blood of Christ.

At Great Trib. many bad, on the left, the goats, will take the mark of the beast, even Jews, though not the nation that will be preserved. The sheep on Christ's right hand will be of 3 types that will not take the mark: Jews, Christians, gentiles (good nations). Overcomers in Christ will reign over these good nations in the millennial kingdom.
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Not the nation that will be preserved? What use has God for nations? The only nation that will be preserved is the Holy nation which Christ defines, and the only Chosen (elect) people of that nation are those made good by having been washed in the blood of Christ. How does God define the good or Holy Nation? By authority of scripture, so we are not left in the dark about it.

1st Peter 2:9
  • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an Holy Nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

There is your Holy nation, and it does not consist of a pile of dirt and ancient bricks located in the middle east. When we study scripture using sound hermeneutics, letting God define His own terms and interpret His own word, we can clearly see who the children of God are, who the kingdom of God is, who the chosen people are, who the Jews are, who the Israel of God is, who the elect is, who the sons of God are, who the Holy Nation is, and what the Promised land is. All man has to do is 'bow' to the "authority" of God's Word and it all falls perfectly into place.


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Now that would be some trick, to reign but not as kings, since reigning [basileuo] means to rule,

The reigning of the Jews will be from a centering of Christ's reigning in Jerusalem, even from the dead sea to the Euphrates River, housed by the Jewish nation, Israel.
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What chapter and verse is that in? It's nowhere found in scripture because it's not God's word. These are your words. Christ reigns now from the Jerusalem from above (Hebrews 12:22), and we are those in Christ who have been translated into that Kingdom of His, and who rule with Him as kings and Priests unto God. according to the authority which is God's word.

Colossians 1:13
  • "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
Ephesians 2:6
  • "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Revelation 1:6
  • "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

i.e., it's not even debatable, it's an unadulterated Biblical fact of scripture. We are reigning as Kings,  a kingdom of priests, a royal priesthood (1st Peter 2:9). And the government is upon Christ's shoulders. Where is the mystery?


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If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not? 

The first resurrection has not happened yet for Christ has not come yet, nor have even some been born yet.
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Unfortunately now you've just called God a liar, who said that Christ was the firstborn from the dead, and the first resurrection. ..as many have done before you.

Matthew 15:6
  • "..Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."

..as you have done also. You have made God's precept that Christ is the firstborn from the dead, the first resurrection, of None-effect. You've completely obliterated it from Holy writ that you may hold to your own Dispensational tradition. ..fill ye up then the measure of your fathers (Matthew 23:32)?


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Christians are (as quoted word for word) resurrected in Christ first. That's a undeniable fact of scripture. We are raised up with Him in His first Resurrection.

This is not exactly the meaning, as stated before, of what 1st resurrection means.
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Curious how Dispensationalists are always talking about taking the scriptures literally, and yet when it suits their purpose, suddenly scripture doesn't "exactly" mean what it says, and Christ is not really the first resurrected? God was wrong? Again, God says this word for word.

Colossians 1:18
  • "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRST-born from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Do you understand what the word "unadulterated" means? It means Christ is the beginning resurrection, the start resurrection, the First Resurrection, the initial one who was born from the dead. It's not ambiguous! Why must Dispensationalists attempt to make God's word null and void? Why make it of non-effect?

Acts 26:23
  • "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

The exact same Greek words found in Revelation 20, of the First Resurrection. To say "This is not exactly the meaning," is to handle God's word deceitfully. For God means what He says. God's word is not subject to private interpretation.


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Where do you read that in scripture?

Matthew 25.30. Notice when referring to outer darkness the Bible never refers to the furnace. It is because non-overcoming Christians will yet be hurt by the second death, unlike their brethren the 1st resurrection which can never be hurt by the second death.
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I repeat. Where do you read that in scripture? You haven't "read" that to me, you've made a private interpretation of Matthew 25 claiming that though it doesn't say something, it actually "means" what you claim anyway. You've "assumed" that scripture means something which it does not say. And as we all know, assumption is the mother of all errors.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a non-overcoming Christian. A Christian "by definition" is one who has overcome in Christ. And it is unbiblical to declare that Christians can be hurt of the second death. That makes no sense at all. All those who are in Christ overcome because Christ has overcome, conquer because Christ has conquered, prevail because Christ has prevailed. That is why we all can be of good cheer, because our overcoming doesn't depend on ourselves, but on the finished work of Christ. Therefore, any tribulation that we should come across in life, we overcome it because we are of God who has overcome for us.

1st John 4:4-6
  • "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
  • They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
  • We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."
John 16:33
  • "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
1st John 2:14
  • "I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."
Revelation 12:11
  • "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Anyone who has not overcome, to be sure, they are not saved and not true Christians.


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Those born into Israel are still Jews, but they have forsaken the Christ and so God allows the Gentiles to come to Christ to convince the chosen ones.
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Again, You make God into a liar. And that is a very serious offense. Who are we going to believe? God or Dispensationalists? Word for word God declares it, yet you continually deny all these things without conscience.

Romans 2:28-29
  • "For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
  • But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

We have the authority of the Witness of the Word where God says clearly that they are "NOT JEWS" if they are not Jews inwardly, and then we have Dispensationalists denying the Word of God declaring it untrue. That they are still Jews (your own words). How do you reconcile that? Who is it that scripture says denies the Word of God?

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2003, 04:50:42 PM »
The commond denominator is how more deeply and lovingly and truthfully a dispensationalist will go because of their heart. Truly preserving the Word of God like the brethren Philedelphia Church that started around 1828, not the Sardis reformations and false revivals, or today's Laodician differing opinions, nor especially Thyiatira's RCC/Pentecostal 3rd Wave movement Great Harlot Religious Rome of Rev. 17 that will set the groundwork for the false prophet in today's tongues.

You wrote: Where does scripture say that when God grafts Gentiles into Israel, they remain Gentiles still separated from the Jews?

Because God does not break His covenenant in the OT. You do not respect this of God.

You wrote:  Because that would be confusion. When we put on Christ, we become the identity of Israel. We are one body, chosen of God, a peculiar or special people.

It is not confusing. We do not become the identity of Israel, but rather the Christian identity is no longer segmented this way for we all come to Christ equally. And yet, God keeps His covenant promise to His chosen ones. I would say most earnestly, that putting on the identity of Israel could cause problems for that is Judaizing Christianity with physical buildings, earthly promises, intermediary priesthood and written code. These things are past. Covenants remain to preserve the nation of Israel.

You wrote: Israel has Gentiles grafted in, but is still divided or separated on the basis of race, nationality, or genealogy. Christianity rests on the foundation that God is no respector of persons, and we all stand the same before God. We're all stinking rotten sinners every one of us. That's why God said that they are "NOT" all Israel who are Israel. And why He said they are not Jews who are Jews outwardly, but are Jews only when they are Jews inwardly. I didn't say that, God did. Because "only" in Christ are people truly Jews and truly Israel. He is the seed that makes His people the Israel of God.

Not race, but His chosen ones. It is fact that they were and are. Otherwise you get into the positional overtone from yourself disprespecting the Jews. I am not Israel, though I am the true Jew. Non-judaized. Love God for I can assure you the nation of Israel will reign in Jerusalem with Christ, though not as kings. You can see it now. It is like an administative role of housing God's needs in Jerusalem, though not reigning as kings like God's overcomers rewarded in recompense.

You wrote: And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"There are not two bodies in Christ, one Jew and one Gentile, clearly God says we who were once Gentiles separtaed from the commonwealth of Israel, are now fellow citizens and fellow heirs of the commonwealth of Israel. It is futile to deny this.

We are fellow servants in Christ, not Israel for Israel is God's chosen ones. We need to be a respecter of where God first revealed Himself. I have done this and I know you can too. Never forget.

You wrote: There is no special dispensation of time for the Salvation of Jewish people after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Understand

This time of dispensation of the millennial reign of Christ is not specifically for the Jew. It is for God's overcomers, time of recompense. Jacob's trouble is for the Jew, but it is concurrent as a time also for the Christian and to deal with the gentile nations yet accepting Christ. God will return to His OT ways in order to deal with the Jews. We see this in Rev. 7.4-8 Who are these people?1) Not the church
The 7th day Adventists consider themselves this people because they keep the law and hence they are the true Jews. But there are ten reasons to prove that the people in this passage are the Jews according to the flesh.
a)   If “the children of Israel” spoken of in 2.14 is to be explained literally, then “the children of Israel” found in 7.4 must also be literally interpreted.
b)   Since “the tribe of Judah” mentioned in 5.5 is literal, so must “the tribe of Judah” mentioned in 7.5 be literal.
c)   The names of the twelve tribes belong only to the children of Israel; who can therefore say which Christian denomination comes under the name of which tribe of Israel?
d)   Israel has 12 tribes, but the church is one. How can the church be divided into 12 tribes?
e)   7.9 speaks of “every nation”, so “Israel” spoken of in 7.4 must be a nation
f)   The great multitude told of in 7.9 is numberless, while those mentioned in 7.3-4 who receive the seal on their foreheads are numbered as 144,000. How can anyone restrict the saved ones of the church to a group numbering only 144,000? Furthermore, this number of 144,000 is made up of 12 twelve thousands. It would thus be unreasonable not to interpret literally.
g)   ”The kings” spoken of in 6.15 are taken literally’ how then can “Israel” found in 7.4 not be reckoned as nation?
h)   Because John did not know where this great multitude came from, he said to one of the elders, “Thou knowest” (7.13,14). Yet he did not ask about those told of in 7.4-8, since evidently he had already known who they were.
i)   In Joel 2.2-27 we read that God only tells Israel how to escape the locusts, and in Revelations 9.3,4 we read that only those whom God has sealed escape the hurt of the locusts. It is thus proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the sealed are the Jews.
j)   The sheep mentioned in Matthew 25 treat well the little brother (‘one of these my brethren, even these least”-v.40). (This little brother points to the Jews or those Christians who yet remain on earth). This little brother-Israel-will become the test for the nations of the earth.
2)   Not the church but the various people of Israel.
Before we deal with group in general let us first notice that in 7.4-8 no name of Dan is mentioned. According to Ezekiel chapters 40-48 which predict the situation concerning the future kingdom, Dan will be located at the north end (48.1). Why then is Dan not mentioned here? This does not mean that Dan as a tribe has disappeared; it may suggest, though, the close relationship Dan has with the serpent. We will recall that as Jacob prophesied over his sons he mentioned Dan (Gen. 49.16-18). Verse 16 of that passage told of Dan’s existence and verse 17 of his conduct; but in verse 18 Jacob suddenly bursts out in prayer. He had not done this when prophesying concerning his other sons. Probably Dan’s behavior in the future would be highly dangerous. During the Great Tribulation the tribe of Dan may join itself to the Antichrist in some special relationship.
These people who are sealed with the seal of the living God are:
a)   the Jews who will rule with Christ on earth in the future (though not as kings). Twelve thousand is the resultant number of the multiples of 12, it being 12x10x10x10. This number represents the eternal perfection of God’s government.
b)   the suffering Jews who make up part of the little brother mentioned in Matthew 25.
c)    the Jewish counterpart of those who endure to the end as spoken of in Matthew 24.
d)   the Jews upon whom the Holy Spirit will be poured out in the coming day (the former rain has already been poured out-Acts 2, but the latter rain is yet to be poured forth-Joel 2.28-29). The blood and fire mentioned in Joel 2.30 coincide with the phenomena of the first trumpet; the pillars of smoke agree with the fifth trumpet. Thus the second outpouring of the Holy Spirit will occur between the 6th seal and the 5th trumpet.
e)   Those Jews who receive the New Covenant when the Lord Jesus shall establish His New Covenant with Israel on earth (Jer. 31.31-34).

You wrote: Shall we add to God's Word and change this to "the Jew First, and then the Gentile, and Then the Jew again?" ..not if we are faithful followers of the Word of God. No, they are not going to be first again. They were first, now they will be last. i.e., first the Jew, and then the Gentile. The first shall be last.

Yes, first the Jew, then the Gentile. This need not preclude God returning to His OT ways in order to deal with Jews. It is not a matter of being first again, nor last, but rather a statement of fact, that God first revealed Himself in the Jews and now it is unto the gentiles which when the fullness come in God then will fulfill His covenent with His chosen ones. Praise the Lord! He truly is righteous and we can demand this of Him for His required to do it. We have security and surety of this and by so doing enlarges our faith. That is what covenants such as this are for showing His legality, not primary concerned with pleasure and grace. God has placed Himself in a circumscribed position this way. Not only for the spiritual church but what He promised long before to the nation of Israel.

You wrote: And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last[/i]."[/list]There is no third.

I find that you legalize this. God is not talking of the Jewish nation per se, but that of all that come, the order is of no significance, and yet, again, He keeps His covenenant promise to His chosen ones. I love this of Him. I find that everything you are about is to remove this, diminishing God in this way for such covenants and promises are glorious things to increase our faith that God sticks to as yet fulfilled obviously since a remnant of the Jews have not received the Christ.

You wrote: To be sure, at the appearance of Christ anyone who is not already saved, is not going to be Saved! For He comes at "The last Trump" of God to judge, not to Save. The time of salvation is now. The Church that will not "receive" the love of truth, will be judged, and it will be on the last day. The last day is both the rapture of the righteous, and the Judgement of the wicked. But again, don't take my word for it. Take the Witness of the Word.

All I would like to say to this is that resurrection is at the last trump, but parousia spans first in the air then to the ground. It is again, a process, first rapturing living overcomers, then tribulation, then completion at the 7th trumpet, dealing with the Jews, Christians and gentile nations.

You wrote: On the contrary. There are only two kingdoms, and there always has been. The kingdoms of the Children of God, and the children of the devil. No other relevant kingdoms exist. That's why Satan was bound. To bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom of God, being delivered from the kingdom of darkness. i.e., First the Jew, and then the Gentiles. And when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, so all Israel shall be saved. There is nothing then left to save.

There are two kingdoms, and when Christ comes again, the good nations will be approved into that kingdom whence before they were not by the mighty mighty miracles of our Lord Jesus casting down Satan into the pit. It would really help you if you thought of this in terms of Biblical Psychology more accurately portraying what is really going on instead. There is much left to save, for the god of this world is still running amock, not defeated yet, but only at the cross. That is how you get folks like Hitler, or murderers or rapists. But in the millennial kingdom these things go away. Men live longer. However, even at the end of that 1000 years Satan is let out one last time to shown that men still had yet some hidden sin. When this is complete eternity future commences in the cube. This is the proper representation of the truth.

You wrote: But God never made any unconditional promises to the nation Israel to preserve it. If He had made such a promise, they would have never been destroyed as a nation the last 2000 years. The Israel nation was destroyed and scattered "BECAUSE" God never made a promise that it wouldn't be. That is why it is not unconditional. It is conditional. And they'll never meet those conditions. They are today as Anti-Christ as they have ever been in History. God is not going back to an old Testament system of national Israel. And they are not coming to the New testament system. You will get "arrested" in Israel for preaching of Christ. Israel could never keep a conditional Covenant. And that is precisely why God promised a Saviour, a Deliverer out of Zion, a Redeemer. Because God was fully aware that Israel couldn't keep the conditions. Thus a remnant chosen by Grace will be Saved from the nation of Israel. ..as it is to this day.

That is true, they can not keep the condition, and that is why today still God has not kept His covenant promise. But He will. For that is what a covenant promise is, irrevocable binding agreement. The only question is when. Obviously at His return will this be fulfilled and not before. God brought a Savior to show the Jews in the gentiles and when their fulness comes in then too will the covenant promise be fulfilled to His chosen ones. Amen.

You wrote: There are no good nations. There is only the Chosen (elect) people of nations made good by having been washed in the blood of Christ.

There will be good nations. Matthew 25.31ff In the future kingdom of the heavens, there will be three distinct realms: (a) the realm of earthly blessings such as God originally gave to Adam in having dominion over all things, with the earth yielding abundantly for man. These blessings which will be in the earthly kingdom were lost after man had fallen. Hence the Lord says, “from the foundation of the world” (v.34c). Today we are afraid of beasts lest they hurt us, but in that day there will be no need for such fear. (b) The kingdom of the Jews. Though its realm will be Canaan land or Palestine, yet its sphere of influence will be far-reaching. See Genesis 17: “She shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her” (v.16); Isaiah 60 “That nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted” (v.12); and Deuteronomy 15: “Jehovah thy God will bless thee, as he promised thee: and though shalt rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over thee” (v.6). (c) The spiritual realm of the kingdom. See 1 Corinthians 15: “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,…and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (vv.50-52); and Romans 8: “If children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (v.17). The kingdom in view in Matthew 25.34 points to that kingdom realm wherein neither asp nor lion will hurt anybody and into which the parable’s first group of people (the sheep) is placed.

You wrote: Not the nation that will be preserved? What use has God for nations? The only nation that will be preserved is the Holy nation which Christ defines, and the only Chosen (elect) people of that nation is those made good by having been washed in the blood of Christ. How does God define the good or Holy Nation? By authority of scripture we are not left in the dark about it.

God has use for nations. They are the reward to overcomers in Christ to reign over as kings. Remember although the 1000 years is a blessed period unline anything we see in the church age, it is even still not yet perfected.

You wrote:
What chapter and verse is that in? It's nowhere found in scripture because it's not God's Word. .

In Genesis, God makes this covenant, even in spirit of the nation of Israel constantly falling away over and over ad noseum in the OT and today. You may desire to spiritualize this. I cannot since it was not spiritualized to this nation. The kingdom of the Jews. Though its realm will be Canaan land or Palestine, yet its sphere of influence will be far-reaching. See Genesis 17: “She shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her” (v.16); Isaiah 60 “That nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted” (v.12); and Deuteronomy 15: “Jehovah thy God will bless thee, as he promised thee: and though shalt rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over thee” (v.6).

You wrote: Where is the mystery?

The mystery of the church age. . Behold, I tell you a mystery: we shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,…and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (vv.50-52); and Romans 8: “If children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (v.17). The kingdom in view in Matthew 25.34 points to that kingdom realm wherein neither asp nor lion will hurt anybody and into which the parable’s first group of people (the sheep) is placed. Today the spiritual warfare that goes on is a real battle, and is ongoing. How God will succeed this all unto His coming is not fully revealed but all yet unfulfilled prophecies regarding this must be completed. I am no prophecy expert, I only know that Daniel is left incomplet, Rev. 6 is not fully realized nor most of the book of Revelation which is why it is called Revelation, for it should be about the future. Amen.

You wrote: Unfortunately now you've just called God a liar who said that Christ was the firstborn from the dead, and the first resurrection. ..as many have done before you.

I think calling God a liar is when someone falsely accusses another for Christ would not do such a thing. Christ is the firstborn and the first resurrection. But I do not reject that god of this world is Satan. Nor should you.

You wrote: start resurrection,

I think I can offer help here. See Rev. 20.4-6 THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM
20.4   Three classes of people will reign with Christ:
(1)   The overcomers will sit on thrones, and judgment will be given to them (20.4a). This shows that they have inherited the kingdom (see also Dan. 7.10, 18, 22-“Saints of the Most High”).
(2)   The martyrs throughout the 20 centuries (“them that had been beheaded”-20.4b). These are the souls under the alter as shown in the fifth seal (6.9f). It is for “the testimony of Jesus” that they are killed.
(3)   The martyrs during the Great Tribulation. These are those who do not worship the beast nor his image, and upon whose foreheads and hands no mark of the beast is received (20.4c).
“They lived” – Let us notice two things:
(1)   These people are not resurrected at the time of 20.4. Their resurrection is merely retraced here as an accomplished fact. John does not see them resurrected at that moment; he only acknowledges that they live.
(2)   Those here who live include not only the resurrected but also those who are raptured alive; for we cannot assert that only those who are resurrected  reign here with Christ; since even though the number of people who are raptured alive may not be great they nevertheless shall reign with Christ too.
20.5   “The first resurrection”-This does not necessarily mean that there is only one resurrection, nor does it denote that there are many resurrections. It simply signifies this as being the “best” resurrection.
The word “the” includes the two things mentioned in the last clause of 20.4:
(1)   “Lived” and (2) “reigned”: The best resurrection means to live and to reign. Such a resurrection is a reward, for there is a reigning with Christ for a thousand years as well as a being resurrected.
“The second death” of 20.6 is in contrast with “the first resurrection”, because the latter means to enjoy glory while the former means to suffer eternally. Hence the first resurrection is none other than the time of recompense (Luke 14.14, 20.34-36).
What Paul says in Philippians 3.11 is not an expecting to be raised from the dead (for all the dead shall be resurrected), nor an anticipating the resurrection of the spirit (for the resurrection of the spirit is already an accomplished at the time of new birth). No, what Paul is looking forward to is the “out-resurrection” from among the dead, which is the “best” resurrection spoken of here in 20.5, even a reigning with the Lord.
Read again Philippians 1.23-25. There in that epistle’s first chapter Paul is saying he will live; he is not contemplating death. How, then, can he be talking about resurrection? He clearly states in Philippians 3.20,21 that he waits for the coming of the Lord.  Consequently, what he anxiously hopes for is to reign with the Lord.
“The rest of the dead” naturally includes all the unsaved sinners. Their resurrection will come to pass a thousand years later.
20.6 “Blessed” should be translated literally as “happy”-Those who appear to be happy today may not be holy, while those who are holy can hardly be happy today.
The first resurrection is blessed in three ways”
(1) “Over these the second death hath no power”-The second death is the lake of fire. Those who have no part in the first resurrection may yet be hurt by the second death. Some Christians will be disciplined in the future (see Matt. 18.34,35) (like thrown into jail until fully repaid to a just God for not forgiving others). He who wrongs his brother will be punished by the Lord (1 Thess. 4.5,6). We believers are exhorted to fear Him who has authority to cast into hell (Greek, gehenna), thus implying that over some Christians hell still has its threat (Luke 12.4,5). If a branch does not abide in Christ, he, like a branch, is liable to be cast off, withered, cast into the fire and burned (John 15.6).
Some, though, may ask, Does not the Bible teach that once a person is saved he will never perish? Why then do you say here that Christians may appear as though to perish? This is due none other than to a misunderstanding of some Scripture verses such as the following:
“He shall never see death” (John 8.51,52) is actually “he shall not forever see death” in the original, and “he shall never taste death” is “he shall not forever taste death” in the original.
“They shall never perish” (John 10.28) is “they shall not forever perish” in the original.
“Shall never die” (John 11.25,26) is “shall not forever die” in the original.
(receives death according to what is due him)
(2) “They shall be priests of God and of Christ”-The significance of a priest is to draw near to God. This people shall be very close to God for they shall have a special relationship with Him and Christ. Today we are priests, therefore all may draw nigh to God. But in the millennial kingdom only those who have part in the first resurrection shall function as priests to God and to Christ.
Aaron functioned as a priest because his rod budded. The budded rod represents resurrection. Whoever is chosen priest is proven by (first) resurrection. When the children of Israel came out of Egypt they all were destined to be priests (Ex. 19.6). Due to their worshiping the golden calf, however, God later chose the family of Aaron to be priests.
“They shall be priests…of Christ”, since at this time Christ shall receive worship as much as God himself is worshipped.
(3) “And shall reign with him a thousand years”-As a rule, in Old Testament times no king was able to be a priest, and no priest, a king. But here is a people who are both priests and kings. As priests, they draw near to God; as kings, they rule over the earth. Only those who have suffered are entitled to reign and enjoy glory with Christ.
Here we are told only the fact that they do reign, we are not informed as to how they reign. No doubt the reigning here is heavenly in nature.

You wrote: I repeat. Where do you read that in scripture?

It is found in Rev. 20, that the 1st resurrection, not all Christians, will never be hurt by the second death. Matt. 25.30 “And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness” – This is a second punishment. Outer darkness is a relative, not an absolute, term. In order to understand this word “outer” we need first of all to know where the Lord will speak these words. As we have noted earlier, the Lord will come to the air, to where as well His saints are to be raptured. There they appear before His judgment seat where these words are spoken. And hence the  “outer” spoken of here is “outer” in relation to the air. Never in Scriptures, not even once, is hell called outer darkness. As a matter of fact, hell is not dark but has about it the element of fire! Let us see that when the Lord comes, He shall be surrounded by darkness, although there shall be glory within (see Ps. 18.9-11). And hence the “outer” mentioned in the parable is in relation to this darkness that shrouds the darkness of the Lord’s glory at His coming.

You wrote: Moreover, there is no such thing as a non-overcoming Christian. A Christian "by definition" is one who has overcome in Christ. And it is unbiblical to declare that Christians can be hurt of the second death. That makes no sense at all. All those who are in Christ overcome because Christ has overcome, conquer because Christ has conquered, prevail because Christ has prevailed. That is why we all can be of good cheer, because our overcoming doesn't depend on ourselves, but on the finished work of Christ. Therefore, any tribulation that we should come across in life, we overcome it because we are of God who has overcome for us.

It is true all Christians are overcomers, but not all Christians overcome before they die. They will yet need some dealing with their flesh for there are some who yet hold onto to sin, natural, and supernatural that they yet need deliverance from. Outer darkness is the place to deal with this. Indeed, as previously stated about about Rev. 20 many Christians will yet be hurt by the second death, scorched and needing discipline, though not of their own accord on earth. It is true Christ overcomes for us and that is why all Christians are eternally saved, but as is clearly seen in the body of Christ many Christians walk around in fleshly ways not denying themselves completely by the cross. The popularized view of Christianity says you are saved and that is that. Scriptures are much more rich than this seen in the parables of Matthew 24 and 25 for example which are for Christians not the unsaved for the unsaved can not understand these things. The talents are gifts, all Christians having at least one gift, given. The virgins all have Holy Spirit consecrating oil. They are all servants of the Lord. It is not something to threaten Christians with unsalvation. For Christians have eternal life. No, it is a matter now of overcoming in Christ according to Matthew 5-7 and filling the vessels of the lamps conduct so if God tarries we will be ready. In order to receive increase in oil one must pay a price. That price is denying oneself on the cross. I believe you are confusing substitutory death, obsessed over this one aspect, and totally forgetting co-death identification in Christ in overcoming. You see as the kingdom is about rewards, eternity future rewards pass away.

You wrote:
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death Anyone who has not overcome, to be sure they are not saved and not true Christians.

Let me show you the difference. Remember, all Christians are overcome in Christ but not all Christians are overcomers. This is a very special truth. Take a look at a couple of verses that reveal this. As you read through the 7 churches of Revelation, notice that within the church there are some given a white stone, or something to shown they are overcomers in Christ and can no longer be hurt by the second death. Not all Christians keep the Word of His patience. Rev. 3.10 in order to escape these things to come Luke 21.36. This so relates to Matthew 25 and the talents that if you use what God gives you He will give you more by the grace of God. If you are watchful He will lead you into the marriage feat reign of Christ and shut the door to the rest of the Christ in outer darkness for a time.

You wrote: whose praise is not of men, but of GodWe have the authority of the Witness of the Word where God says clearly that they are "NOT JEWS" if they are not jews inwardly, and then we have dispensationalists denying the Word of God declaring it untrue. That they are still Jews (your own words). How do you reconcile that? Who is it that scripture says denies the Word of God?

The true Jew is the Christian, and the nation of Israel has forsaken themselves against God. They have essentially lost their God given right, though not forever because God keeps His covenant promise. Remember, to reject this is to reject God's righteousness. He keeps the truth, unchangefully. And so to must I preserve the truth, no matter how much my flesh wars against my spirit. If you hath an ear I pray you do hear.


MAC

  • Guest
Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2003, 07:22:31 PM »
Quote
KPMG: This time of dispensation of the Millennial reign of Christ is not specifically for the Jew. It is for God's overcomers, time of recompense. Jacob's trouble is for the Jew,

If you are referring to the war of A.D.70 as the time of Jacob's trouble, then you are correct. But if you, as do most dispensationalists, believe that this "time of Jacob's trouble" is still future, then you are being quite unscriptural, and  whether you realize it or not, vicariously participating in a serious form of antisemitism.

Read Ezekiel 18:20, and tell us how God can say one thing, in the Bible, and still carry out a particular punishment for the descendants of Jews 2000 years after He had already done so to the guilty generation that rejected Him.

Everything you have learned about dispensationalism trickles down from Scofield's Reference Bible, with a lot of confusing stuff added in.

Are you sure you are obeying the right teacher?

Most, if not all, of dispensational doctrine believed today can be traced back to the Scofield Reference Bible published about 1910.

C.I. Scofield was either a liar, or he didn't know much of the Bible he presumed to teach.

In his footnotes to Matthew 24:34, he defines "this generation," and wants us to believe that Israel is one long, continuing generation of Jews which God is "wonderfully" preserving to this day. (page 1034, old Reference Bible)

Like all dispensationalists, he saw only what he wanted to see, because in Matthew 1:17 the Bible says that from Abraham to Christ there were 42 generations. And the Bible obviously was referring to Israelites.

The idea that there is only one generation of Jews is one of the many sandpiles dispensationalism is built on. Obviously, when it comes to preserving their pet doctrine, simple biblical truth doesn't matter much to zealous dispensationalists.

If Scofield is true, then Matthew 1:17 is false, but if Matthew is true then Scofield was either too stupid to teach Bible, or he was a liar.

Why do you choose to follow him?



KPMG

  • Guest
Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2003, 08:30:54 PM »
You wrote: If you are referring to the war of A.D.70 as the time of Jacob's trouble, then you are correct. But if you, as do most dispensationalists, believe that this "time of Jacob's trouble" is still future, then you are being quite unscriptural, and  whether you realize it or not, vicariously participating in a serious form of antisemitism.

I am not sure how you surmise this. But the Jews sufferred far greater in WWII, many more died, it was an atrocity. To reject that would be antisemetic over 70 AD.

“There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” – In 70 A.D. this was fulfilled literally. The Roman soldiers unto General Titus broke into Jerusalem, burned the temple, and scraped off all the gold which overlaid the stones by turning them over after the gold had melted into crevices between the stones.

Let us again see when is to be the fulfillment of the first part of Matthew 24-25 (i.e., 24.4-31). Generally, there are two different interpretations: (1) that it was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when Titus destroyed Jerusalem, since verse 2 has already been totally fulfilled; or (2) that it is yet to be fulfilled because the subject of Matthew 24 is Great Tribulation. Among those who hold the first view is C. I. Scofield, and among those who advocate the second is J. N. Darby.

Seven arguments can be brought against the first view (fulfilled in 70 A.D.): (a) Though there were people who claimed to be Christ, yet none of them performed any wonder (24.24) – (b) “The abomination of desolation” (an idol is to be put in the temple) has not been fulfilled: the first school argues that this was fulfilled when the Roman flag was raised in the holy place – but when this happened, no Jew could flee anymore; yet 24.16 reads, “then let them that are in Judea flee unto the mountains” – (c) The Lord orders the Jews, upon witnessing the idol placed in the temple, to flee, that is to say, to flee in a hurry; but no such need to hasten was evident at the time in 70 A.D. – (d) The destruction of Jerusalem will affect the whole world, yet during the time of Titus such an aftermath did not happen – (e) In those days there was also no disturbance in celestial phenomena (24.29) – (f) The Lord will appear after the destruction, yet He did not appear after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (we do not spiritualize this) – (g) This part from 24.4-31 is parallel to what is found in Revelations 6. The book of Revelation was written in or about 96 A.D. and the historical event involving Titus occurred in 70 A.D. Had this first part been completely fulfilled at the time of Titus, why should this old event which happened some 26 years earlier be gone over again by John in his prophetic writing?

The destruction of the temple (besides that by the Babylonians which took place around 586 B.C. is to occur two times more. “The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary,” prophesized Daniel (9.26). Time-wise, this will come with the last of the sevens after the passing of 62 sevens. And the term “the end” is used repeatedly in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 to show that this will be the second destruction (the first of these two having been that of Titus in 70 A.D.)

By comparing other Scripture passages, such as in Revelation, we will be able to understand more clearly this second destruction of the holy temple: “The court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months” (11.2).

By way of conclusion, then, we may say that in the first part of Matthew 24 and 25 (24.4-31), verses 4-6 of chapter 24 have already been fulfilled, verses 7-14 have not been entirely fulfilled since they are still in the process of being so, and verses 15-31 are yet to be fulfilled.

The 8th one will be one of the original 7 (Nero) and the 7th we can wonder could he be ruling in the world today? If Christ is not here yet, and we don’t all know it, then he hasn’t come. But for the partial preterists we can then say they have a fear of death the last eneminy claiming the Great Trib. has already occurred, and secondly we can say they reject God’s millennial kingdom (which can not commence until Satan is cast down), as well as often the case there is a belief Nero was The Antichrist which is wrong, but the truth is Nero was just a body the Antichrist will use and reaniminate in the future and to be reanimated as Judas was the body the False Prophet used, so that the wonder of the antichrist to come, will be killed, will then be revived, the idol will speak, and the False Prophet of Judas come again, what a tag team. It will all be quite spectacular as this abomination of desecration speaks and then kills.

Some say the conscience of a preterists comes down to lack of co-death and thus underestimating him what real Great Trib. will be like even unto the danger of misdiagnosing the mark of the beast and then accepting it, God forbid.

12 external evidences
1. All the writers of the 1st 3 centuries agree John’s exile was at the latter part of reign of Domitian, last of 12 caesars, therefore written in 95 or 96 AD. I have quotes by various writers.

2. If it was in Nero’s time Revelations has no spiritual value for us for the future so it is not already fulfilled.

3. Teitan can not be the antichrist for he was never referred to as such in those terms in early Christian writers.

4. Iraneus was a pupil of Polycarp who himself was one of John’s pupils.

5. Tertullian said Domitan also cruel like Nero often ceased from his attempts (I have quotes). Banishment (as in John) is his more likely avenue whereas Nero would just put you to death.

6. Clement of Alexandria speaks of a tyrant after whose death John returns from exile, referring to Domitan likely.

7. Eusebius in 3 pasages states the banishment of John took place in reign of Domitian and that the time of John’s revelation was in the 14th year reign of Domitan (95 AD).

8. Victorinus of Petau, the earliest extant writer on apocolypse, said John revealed his revelation when he was released from Patmos. 95 AD

9. Victorinus (martyred in 303 AD) said Domitan was the 6th king reigning during when the apocolypse was written in reference to the 8th king talked about in Revelations 17.

10.Jerome (4th century) said Revelations written at Patmos was written in the 14th year of Domitan, the second caesar who persecuted Christians

11. This harmony was ruined by Ephiphanius of Salmis whose testimony is worthless plus its incredible. He was careless and an inaccurate ancient writer. He actually wrote that John at age 90 was released into the reign of Claudius. Claudius was assisinated in 54 AD. If this is true then John would have had to been 33 years older than Jesus Christ in his 63 year when called to apostle.

12. Many other authors also in favor of the Domitian date

7 Internal evidences-evidences in the text
1. The state of the 7 churches would have required development of 20 or 30 years far beyond the 5 or 6 years allowed by the Neronic date, beyond the condition of the church in Paul’s time.

2. It is evident persecution was evident throughout Asia Minor at the time (at least one martyr in Pergamum) whereas in Nero’s time it does not extend beyond immediate neighborhood of Rome.

3. Rev 2.14 Ballamites had time to establish themselves in PErgamum

4. Jezebel had not only risen to influence in Thyatira, but time for repenteance had also been given to her (according to Reve. 2.20, 21)

5. Revelations is definitely a book of prophecy (see 1.3, 22.7,18,19)

6. Rationalistic view of preterists does not wash for up to our day the concluding portion of God’s Word still remains prophetic writing concerned future events to come from Revelations 4 on. Even Laodecia is not completed yet. It is neither a book of allegorical history or already fulfilled.

7. Rationalistics attempt to take away this fearful book serving as one of the keenest of the swords of God’s Spirit has been defeated.

More Arguments Against Preterism


Preterists do believe that all prophesy has been fulfilled. I bring to your attention Daniel 9:24 which is one of the verses that Preterists use for the benefit of the author of this thread as follows...

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

When a verse, such as Daniel 9:24, is used to show that all prophecy has been fulfilled, ALL, I say again, ALL of the elements of that verse must clearly illustrate that they have been fulfilled.

Upon further examination of Daniel 9:24, This is what we see as the elements of the verse as follows...

1) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city

2) to finish the transgression

3) and to make an end of sins

4) and to make reconciliation for iniquity

5) and to bring in everlasting righteousness

6) and to seal up the vision and prophecy

7) and to anoint the most Holy


This list of 7 elements comprise Daniel 9:24. When we examine this list, What elements have been fulfilled? Are there any of the seven elements that have not been fufilled?

To the Preterist, All Seven elements of Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. Which begs the question for element #3? How many of us still sin? If Daniel 9:24 is to be 100% fulfilled, then none of us should be able or capable of sinning right now.

Question of fulfillment-->Does anyone still sin? If you answer yes, Then this element of “and to make an end of sins” has not been fulfilled. Unless, ALL Preterists will admit publicly that they do not sin?

Question of reality-->How much sin is in the World today? How many people are murdered? How many babies are aborted? How many people go to jail for crimes committed against the Law, the community, and against nature?

The next element to examine is element #1. Seventy Weeks are determined on thy people. According to the Preterists, 70 Weeks have already occurred. Have they really?

When we examine Revelation Chapter 9, The Preterists cannot show that Revelation Chapter 9 has already occurred anywhere in Scripture, or for that matter, anywhere in the History of Mankind that clearly shows that mankind suffered under the locusts that are described in Revelation Chapter 9. They simply cannot show this occurring anywhere.

They also cannot show where the 144,000 Jews that preach the Gospel of the Kingdom during that first 3 ½ years of Jacob’s Trouble, were sealed. They cannot even describe this Seal of God on their foreheads. Matter of fact, At this time in World History, NO ONE has the ability to describe what this SEAL OF GOD even looks like.

Secondly, The Preterists cannot show where, specifically, the Two Witness of Revelation were in 70 A.D. They cannot prove that there was a resurrection for them because there is no documentation whatsoever stating that these Two Witnesses died in 70 A.D or that there was a Resurrection of the Two Witnesses in the City of Jerusalem. No Documentation whatsoever.

Thirdly, The Preterists cannot show any evidence of a Peace Covenant being signed between Isreal and the Antichrist anywhere in the History of Mankind. They cannot show this occurring in 70 A.D. either!

Remember, For a verse to be 100% fulfilled, and that is any verse pertaining to Endtime Bible Prophecy, ALL elements of the verse must clearly be shown and proven as being 100% fulfilled. If any element cannot be shown or proven as being 100% fulfilled, Then the verse is not fulfilled. Plain and simple. On top of that, You only need one element of a verse that has not been fulfilled to disqualify a verse claimed to be 100% fulfilled.

Therefore, at this point in time, Has Daniel 9:24 been 100% fulfilled? The answer is a most definite NO!
Jesus spoke his Olivet Discourse about 3 or 4 days before the Cross (Matt 26:1-2...ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.")

So when he said at Matt. 24:15 "when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...", do you think he was pointing to something that was only a couple two or three days hence? The reason I ask is because Daniel 9 says this will occur "in the midst of the week", presumably the 70th week. So, as you say the midst of the 70th week would be at the Cross, this is when the abomination of desolation should occur, and Jesus tells the believers who see this to "flee to the mountains...for then shall be great tribulation (24:21)...he then says "immediately after the tribulation of those days...shall they see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven. This would be at the end of the 70th week, right? About 3 1/2 years after the Cross?

So do you see the abomination of desolation occurring only 3 days or so after Jesus' prediction, and yet at the Cross?

Not only this you have not solved the problem of mid-week for yourself?


You wrote: Read Ezekiel 18:20, and tell us how God can say one thing, in the Bible, and still carry out a particular punishment for the descendants of Jews 2000 years after He had already done so to the guilty generation that rejected Him.

The Jews are still being, although sadly, and our love and heart goes out to them, hostile to God today, but Praise the Lord this will not remain forever when He comes, accordingly with 18.20 of course.

You wrote: Everything you have learned about dispensationalism trickles down from Scofield's Reference Bible, with a lot of confusing stuff added in.

I disagree. See above. I side with Darby, considering this the original Word of God.

You write: In his footnotes to Matthew 24:34, he defines "this generation," and wants us to believe that Israel is one long, continuing generation of Jews which God is "wonderfully" preserving to this day. (page 1034, old Reference Bible)

v.34 “This generation”-The Greek text is genea, not aion. The Chinese deem 30 years to be a generation; the West reckons 40 years as such. Neither calculation is applicable here, for had it been either case, all these things would have had to have been fulfilled in the lifetime of those living at the time of Matthew and thus all would have become past history. On the basis of such an interpretation (that is, that the meaning of “generation” is in terms of a given period of years) the historians maintain that Matthew 24 is already past: they argue that Titus destroyed Jerusalem exactly 40 years after the Lord had spoken these words recorded here in verse 34 and that therefore the word “generation” is here used in its most general sense.

Some try to avoid the problem by changing “generation” into “race”-the race of the Jewish people. But this is unlikely because
(1) Matthew 1.17 says, “So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations”; (2) we must not alter a word simply because of a difficulty, and (3) had this word been “race” in its translation, then such an explanation would mean that the Jewish race has the possibility of being destroyed since the Lord in fact declares that “this generation shall not pass away till all these things be accomplished” (v.34).
How, then, should genea be explained? We should try to find the clue from the Old Testament:
“Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever” (Ps. 12.7). This is a generation not in terms of a physical, but a moral, relationship.
“They are a perverse and crooked generation” (Deut. 32.5). The genea (Hebrew, dor) here is not 30 or 40 years or even a lifetime. As long as perversity and crookedness last, just so is the duration of the generation.
“For they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness” (Deut. 32.20). The generation continues as long as unfaithfulness persists.
“There is a generation that curse their father, and bless not their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, oh how lofty are their eyes! And there eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men” (Prov. 30.11-14). Obviously, such a generation is not limited to a few decades or a lifetime; rather, it points to a period marked by certain immoral characteristics.We may receive further light from the Gospel of Matthew itself: “But whereunto shall I liken this generation…?” (11.16-19)
“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet...The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here” (12.39,41).
“The queen of the south shall rise in the judgment with this generation…Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation” (12.42,45).
“All these things shall come upon this generation” (23.36). This evil generation will last just as long as evil and adultery remain. Hence the meaning of genea in 24.34 is a period of time characterized by evil, adultery, perverseness, and crookedness. Such a period has not yet passed away, and will pass away only after all these things are accomplished.

“This generation” includes three classes of people: (1) the Gentiles who worship idols and reject God; (2) those Jews who reject Christ; and (3) the apostates-the so-called modernists. Before all these people pass away, all these things will be accomplished. The Lord will come and destroy them. Before the coming of the kingdom, all these things shall be fulfilled.
We should thus see the distinction among these three Greek words used in the Bible: kosmos is the world, aion is the age, and genea is the generation.

You wrote: Like all dispensationalists, he saw only what he wanted to see, because in Matthew 1:17 the Bible says that from Abraham to Christ there were 42 generations. And the Bible obviously was referring to Israelites.

Yes. This is a dispensation of Israelites. 42 is the experience of suffering. 40 signifies trial though not necessarily suffering. After 42 there will be rest. The book of Revelation mentions 42 months; Numbers 42 stations. 43rd station will be canaan the Promise Land.  As soon as the 42 passes, Chirst our Promise Land shall come; and with Him there will be eternal rest. Three times 14 generations, but there were only 41 generations. David is counted twice for he concludes the 1st 14 generations at the same time he commences the second 14 generations.

You wrote:
The idea that there is only one generation of Jews is one of the many sandpiles dispensationalism is built on. Obviously, when it comes to preserving their pet doctrine, simple biblical truth doesn't matter much to zealous dispensationalists.

There are 42 generations, not one.

You wrote:
Why do you choose to follow him?

I actually don't. I follow Darby. As shown above why with regard to 70 AD

MAC

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2003, 11:36:56 PM »
KPMG:

Do you believe that Christ always told the truth?

Please don't answer that.  Following your perplexing logic, I might end up worshiping trees and caterpillars.


KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2003, 01:28:26 AM »
Mac, try to understand what I said with patience and humility. It is really quite healthy to try to understand someone who is a dispensationalist who believes in the dispensation of the New Covenant is occuring right now though the New Covenant has not taken place yet for the Jews which begin at the start of the millennium. Today, Old Covenant of the Law for the Jews still remains that do not yet partake in the New, not yet.

But Christians do, for the redeemed people the New Covenant is now. We may enjoy it beforehand, this is the blood of Christ's new covenant. Just as Abraham was justified by faith so too are we, and even though God made His covenant with Abraham, and not with us. But now we partake of it through the blood.

The Lord is building us up with the principle of the new covenant. The blood is not only for remission of sin, but also for the establishment of the New Covenant. Remission of sin is only a process, way to a goal. Without the problem of sin solved the New Covenant can not come upon us.

Note very carefully in Heb. 8.10-12 the promise made to the house of Israel in those days (mill. kingdom) that "all shall know the Lord". Such is not the case today. Israel has not yet received the New Covenant.


Tony Warren

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2003, 04:29:33 AM »
>>>
Where does scripture say that..

What chapter and verse is that in? It's nowhere found in scripture because it's not God's Word..

I repeat. Where do you read that in scripture?


It is found in Rev. 20, that the 1st resurrection
<<<

etc., etc. I asked you four times where do you read that in scripture, and you reply with another long list of "interpretations" of scripture and claims that it is in Revelation. It's not written in Revelation and so please stop claiming that it is. We all can read, and we've read Revelation many times. I know you are familiar with the rules of "appealing to scripture," because I specifically gave them to you.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

This is not a forum to simply make "wild, unbiblical and untenable" statements, or to falsely claim that God said things which you OBVIOUSLY cannot point to the scriptures where He says them. Nor should one deny the word of God which is quoted to them "word for word." If that's what you intend to do, then you've come to the wrong place. I asked specific questions. Please answer them with specific scriptures (if you can). For starters.

1. God said He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, while you say he in fact is a Jew (see your previous post). What is your explanation for denying God's word that he "IS NOT?" Where is the scripture (chapter and verse) that says God made a mistake in saying that?

2. God said Christ is the beginning, the preeminent, the first resurrection, while you said the First Resurrection has not happened yet.
1. -
What is your explanation for denying God's word? Where is the scripture (chapter and verse) that says God made a mistake in saying that?

3. God said that when we are in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, you say God is wrong again and the physical Jew "is in fact still a Jew" according to God. What is your explanation for denying God's word? Where is the scripture (chapter and verse) that says God made a mistake in saying that?

4. God says if the word of God abideth in us, we have overcome the wicked one, while you say no, there are some Non-overcoming Christians. What is your explanation for denying God's word? Where is the scripture (chapter and verse) that says God made a mistake in saying this?

These are the fundamental contradictions to God's word that you are continually making, while feigning that you don't know what you're doing wrong. Don't write back and tell us the history of Dispensationalism, or tell us it's because Dispensationalists will believe because of their heart, or because it's preserving the word of God like the brethren of the Philedelphia Church, or any other such (alleged) answers you have given. In this forum we expect "real answers" to real questions. That means the witness of the word, where God says something. Just as I have done in answering your questions or retorting to your declarations. I didn't give you my opinion, I gave you the witness of the word. God (not I) has declared that there is neither Jew nor Greek when we are in Christ. That's not something I made up, it's something I bore witness to God saying. And that Christ is the First Resurrection. Squirm as you may, that's not eschatological rhetoric, that's the unadulterated witness to the word of God. Or that those who are in Christ have overcome. That's God's word not mine. As sure as it's the divinely inspired word that a Jew is "NOT" a Jew who is one outwardly, that's how sure you should be that it's God talking, and not man. That's the testimony of Christ. If you don't have that testimony, then your testimony is not of Christ.


Quote
>>>
Unfortunately now you've just called God a liar who said that Christ was the firstborn from the dead, and the first resurrection. ..as many have done before you.

I think calling God a liar is when someone falsely accusses another for Christ would not do such a thing.
<<<

I don't think -- I Know that someone who reads God saying that when we are in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, and then deliberately contradicts God by saying, No, they are still Jews, is calling God a liar. i.e., God says there is Neither Jew nor Greek, and you say Wrong God, there is! God says all Israel is not Israel, and you reply they are too Israel?  And then you proceed to privately interpret scripture in an attempt to prove God wrong. And you've said it multiple times, so it's not like it was a passing comment you made in error. There is no getting around your own words which testify against you in this matter. Or when God says He is Not a Jew who is one outwardly with regards to being God's people, and yet you deliberately contradict God without conscience, and declare that he is too a Jew who is one outwardly. What would you call that if it's not calling God a liar? I mean we can sugar coat it if we want, like so many Churches in our day, but in the end, logical reason will prevail. Visa vi, if you deny that what someone said is true, you "ARE" calling them a liar! No matter how you slice it. And if what God said was absolutely true, then we can not do unrighteously and make that word null and void by Dispensationalist tradition. It must be "received" from God as authoritative. There is a stiff judgment to pay in the house of God for not receiving God's truth. And God takes full responsibility for sending it.

2nd Thessalonians 2:10-12
  • "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Rejecting or denying God's Word of truth for the sake of holding onto the traditions of scofield or the Plymouth Brethren is a serious offense against God. And it manifests itself in contradicting, ignoring and wresting God's word.


Quote
>>>
I think I can offer help here. See Rev. 20.4-6 THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM
20.4   Three classes of people will reign with Christ:
<<<

Psalms 146:3
  • "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."

Man cannot help anyone in understanding God's word, he is merely a tool. Only the Spirit of God is man's help, and He does help us by opening our eyes to truth and having man "RECEIVE" what is written as truth in humbly surrendering to the authority of God's word. If we are going to keep fighting and resisting the Spirit of Truth at every turn, there is no help.

That seems to be the root of the problem. You think that you can simply interpret scripture the way you have been taught. You claim the scripture speaks of 3 classes of people reigning in Revelation 20, but it does not. That is yet another private interpretation. We must justly or honestly interpret the Word, Humbly receiving what it says, and discarding what it does not say. So where does scripture (chapter and verse) say that there are three classes of people who reign with Christ? That's the whole point I am making. The process of the Spirit of truth (honesty) moving us to exegete by "sound Hermeneutics," rather than personal opinions, is the only way to truly understand the Word. You are not supplying any "real" scriptural support for anything that you are laying at the feet of God, you're simply naming a chapter and then saying this is the Dispensationalist's truth. That just doesn't rightly "cut" it.

2nd Timothy 2:15
  • "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Do you think the Bereans would have accepted your teachings as truth? No, they would have searched the scriptures daily to see if those things which you claim were really written down in scripture (Acts 17:11), were written down in scripture. And when they found out that they were not actually there (like the three classes of Christians reigning), they would have disregarded those teachings as unbiblical.

So you cannot offer help by claiming there are three classes of people reigning with Christ. That is not help, that is more of the same as you've been providing. Throwing out a few passages which don't say what you are defending. We don't trust man's word, we trust in God. And that means that we trust in His Word. That is where "our help" comes from.

Psalms 37:40
  • "And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him."
Psalms 121:2
  • "My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."
Psalms 119:173
  • "Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts."

 Unadulterated word means God's word received as help without being contaminated by our own words, or, tainted, or made impure, spoiled, polluted or infected by our own ideas.


Quote
>>>
Moreover, there is no such thing as a non-overcoming Christian. A Christian "by definition" is one who has overcome in Christ. And it is unbiblical to declare that Christians can be hurt of the second death. That makes no sense at all. All those who are in Christ overcome because Christ has overcome, conquer because Christ has conquered, prevail because Christ has prevailed. That is why we all can be of good cheer, because our overcoming doesn't depend on ourselves, but on the finished work of Christ. Therefore, any tribulation that we should come across in life, we overcome it because we are of God who has overcome for us.

It is true all Christians are overcomers, but not all Christians overcome before they die.
<<<

Huh?  A play on words? A mystery inside an enigma? All Christians overcome but they don't all overcome in Christ in this world before they die? What are you talking about!!!!! Another sterling example of Dispensationalist convolution and distortion and confusion. Overcoming is defined by God, and as we know, "God is not the author of confusion -cor. 14:33." ..man is.

1st John 4:3-4
  • "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  • Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Unadulterated word of God! we have your leaven that Christians have not all overcome in Christ, versus Christ's leaven that everyone born of God "has" overcome. Who are we to believe?  He who is not born of God, will not see the Kingdom -- they are not Christians.


Quote
>>>
They will yet need some dealing with their flesh for there are some who yet hold onto to sin
<<<

That's not true. There is not some who still hold onto sin, there is "ALL" who still hold onto sin. Oh Wretched man that I am (Romans 7:24), who shall deliver me from the body of this death Paul exclaims. He understood the flesh. We all will war with the flesh so long as we are in this body of death. But thank God, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. The flesh is but dust, it will decay and rot, the Soul is all that will enter the Kingdom from here. The flesh doesn't need to be made better, it will be burned in the fire along with the rest of the world after we have been changed, and left it. It is true we are made better people while in the flesh by the sanctification and work of the Spirit within us, but that has nothing to do with the doctrines you are talking about.


Quote
>>>
Let me show you the difference. Remember, all Christians are overcome in Christ but not all Christians are overcomers. This is a very special truth.
<<<

Special Truth? All truth is special in my book (the Bible). But this is not truth, because Holy God has never in all of scripture declared that some Christians are not overcomers. If you mean some who "Claim" that they are Christians, then yes, there are lots of them in the Church who are not overcomers. But they are also not true Christians.


Quote
>>>
As you read through the 7 churches of Revelation, notice that within the church there are some given a white stone, or something to shown they are overcomers in Christ and can no longer be hurt by the second death.
<<<

No. "ALL" who overcome are given the white stone and the hidden manna, which both symbolize the power and word in Christ.

Revelation 2:17
  • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

i.e., those who do not overcome will not be given the manna, nor the White Stone. They are not truly Saved. Those who are in these Churches and who overcome are those who have become Saved, and Christ is their reward. Just as God says again to the Church of Laodicea, that they should buy of Him gold tried in the fire and white rainment that they won't be naked and that they'll be rich. It's encouraging them to become truly Saved, while warning them of the dangers of "thinking that they are Rich and Clothed" and yet being unsaved. i.e., make your calling and election sure!


Quote
>>>
We have the authority of the Witness of the Word where God says clearly that they are "NOT JEWS" if they are not jews inwardly, and then we have dispensationalists denying the Word of God declaring it untrue. That they are still Jews (your own words). How do you reconcile that? Who is it that scripture says denies the Word of God?

The true Jew is the Christian, and the nation of Israel has forsaken themselves against God.
<<<

You said those born into Israel are still Jews.

2. -

I say, not according to God's defining and prophecy of the Jews. Now you've done a 180 degree turn on me in one message. Which is it? God says they are "NOT" JEWS" simply by being of Israel, you said they were still Jews, now you're saying the Christians are the true Jews. Still left vague is if God was correct] in saying they (the Israelites) were NOT jews just by being born of the nation of Israel. To refresh your memory, that is what you are saying. Again, this is the continual confusion that reigns in the doctrine of Dispensationalism. It cannot agree with the Word of God consistently, because it has an aversion to the truth. And that is why every single Dispensationalist that attempts to discuss the topic, cannot make sense. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error.


Quote
>>>
They have essentially lost their God given right, though not forever because God keeps His covenant promise.
<<<

God never gave Israel a right to be Israel forever. As you yourself also reluctantly admitted when saying that the promises to them were "conditional" promises. Are you now forgetting what you say in your own posts?

You say God keeps His Covenant promise, and to that I whole-heartily agree. But God never made a covenant promise that the plot of earth in the middle east, or that the kindred of people called Jews, would be saved as a nation. The Covenant promise to the fathers was to the Seed, as of "one," not of many. And that "one" is Christ, Israel. Jews and Gentiles alike are saved not by nation, but in the body of Christ. He is the Israel of God to whom the promises are fulfilled.

Galatians 3:16
  • "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

The promises to the nation Israel were conditional promises, the promises to the Israel of God, the Chosen people, were unconditional promises, fulfilled in Christ Israel. He "is" that promised land wherein we have no need to fear our enemies and wherein there is Peace and Safety. The Prophecy is fulfilled. Christ came not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.


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>>>
And so to must I preserve the truth, no matter how much my flesh wars against my spirit.
<<<

It's our job to remain faithful to, and bear testimony to the truth, to bear witness to the truth, to be messengers of the truth. God preserves the pure word of truth. In a word, we're "Prophets." To quote God unadulterated word for word we are faithful witnesses. The Holy Spirit of God will preserve the truth, not us. But if our tradition or pride gets in the way, we are the ones responsible for the false teachings we cling to.

1st Peter 5:5
  • "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

It is the humble surrendering to "His truth" (as opposed to ours), which preserves us. God will always preserve His Word, the only question is, who will receive it and who will ignore it. When we reject God's Word of truth, then God will withhold from us His mercy. God resisteth the proud, but giveth Grace to the humble. That's not just a fancy slogan, that's truth preserved of God.

Psalms 40:11
  • "Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me."

Not vice versa, let His truth preserve us.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 

Drew

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2003, 07:34:11 AM »
The most important thing to remember is that each eschatological view has varied definitions and truths. None of them is an all or nothing position. They all have strengths and weaknesses.

MAC

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2003, 08:56:58 AM »
KPMG:

Previously I asked a question: Did the Lord Jesus Christ always tell the truth?

If you can answer in the affirmative, then how do interpret Luke 21:22?  (in 200 words or less, please). I can hardly wait to hear your answer.


Mac


MAC

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2003, 09:19:13 AM »
Chris:

Quote
You wrote: The most important thing to remember is that each eschatological view has varied definitions and truths. None of them is an all or nothing position. They all have strengths and weaknesses
.

I believe that is true, but only as far as eschatological  views are concerned.

Admittedly, perfection in Bible interpretation is not possible for us mortal and frail human beings, but to be locked into a system of thought simply on the word of some famous Bible scholar, and to defend that system even at the expense of clear and evident Scriptural truth, is unacceptable. A true biblical eschatological view can change if change is warranted by new facts revealed from careful study of the Scriptures.


Mac


Tony Warren

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2003, 12:40:54 PM »
>>>
The most important thing to remember is that each eschatological view has varied definitions and truths.
<<<

..except that the eschatological position which is written on the pages of Holy canon is defined by itself, and its truth is never varied. In other words, the time when Satan is bound according to scripture, is not something which can be understood in many varied ways. It can only be understood in strict accordance with how God intended (and interpreted using His Word). i.e., it cannot be possible that some say Satan was bound at the cross, and some say no, Satan will be bound in the future, and both of them have the truth. ..Not Possible!

So then, the most important thing to remember is not that each eschatological view has varied definitions and truths. The most important thing to remember is that "Interpretations and definitions belong to the immutable God, and thus the truth of His Word is Pure, Sure and consistent. As long as we understand that interpretations belong "to Him," we will not place our own private interpretations upon it.

Genesis 40:8
  • "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."
Genesis 41:16
  • "And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace."

Joseph understood that righteous interpretation belongs not to him, but to God. A principle that has never been abrogated. When we search the scriptures to see what is truth, God will give us an answer of peace. ..if we seek it in Him rather than ourselves.

Proverbs 15:28-29
  • "The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.
  • The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous."

A man led by the Spirit of God prays for guidance and studies to answer, governing his tongue well in making declarations. It is part of the working of the Holy Spirit within him building character so that he is humbly aware of the account he must give of his words in teaching, and of the good and bad influence that they may have upon others. By contrast, a man without this Spirit has a seared conscience that it doesn't bother him to teach what God has not said. He doesn't even recognize what is not really scripture. He has that certain lack of "fear of God" where contradicting the Lord's Word doesn't really trouble him. He is not disturbed by unsupportable interpretations of scriptures or traditions which void God's Word. This is the difference between The Bereans, and the Pharisees. The Bereans didn't say that both the eschatological views of the Judaizers and of the Apostle Paul had merit--On the contrary, they searched out the truth in the scriptures, and thus followed scripture. They Didn't become Paul-ians or Paul-ines, they became Christ-ians because they followed the Word. That's following Christ!


Quote
>>>
None of them is an all or nothing position. They all have strengths and weaknesses.
<<<

Fortunately for the Christian, this is not true. The true (Biblical) eschatological position has no weakness because it is the truth. The weakness is in man. Not that any man has "perfect" understanding of truth, but that of the Spirit they can know which eschatological position is true, and which position is blatantly false. Just as the Bereans did. Anyone who says that all positions have truth, is either ignorant of the diverse positions, Deceived out of hand or is being Politically Correct and doesn't care what he says. Because the positions are contradictory to each other.

Strength is in the truth.

Psalms 103:20
  • "Bless the LORD, ye his [malak] (Messengers), that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word."
Revelation 3:8
  • "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."

Weakness is in error.

Psalms 88:4
  • "I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:"
Daniel 10:8
  • "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength."

God's truth does not have strengths and weaknesses. It is either true, or it is not true. The points of "ANY" eschatological position must stand or fall on whether it is the unadulterated Word of God, or whether it is personal interpretation thereof. A totally different matter. We can either quote it word for word, or we cannot. But when we say "Thus saith the Lord," we had better make sure that the Lord really said it or else He will vomit out those who place words in His mouth that do not belong there. Those who change black and white to grey and hot and cold to lukewarm, the warnings of Revelation chapter three to the Church, apply to them.

Revelation 3:15-16
  • "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
  • So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

When we are coming as delivering the Word of God, we had better make sure that our words are God's Words, and not our own. It's the difference between a faithful witness, and a false witness of the Word.

 ..there are no non-essentials when teaching of the Kingdom of God.
 
nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

KPMG

  • Guest
Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2003, 01:04:09 PM »
Mr. Warren,

As Christians God does not differentiate between Jew or Greek, big or tall, fat or slim. Even today, if a Jew desires salvation, He must come to Christ otherwise he will be cast into the bad side of Hades, later to be resurrected to the lake of fire. But upon Christ's return, God will save the nation of Israel centered around Jerusalem, that is a remnant, as well as all the good nations of the world, that did not take the mark of the beast. The mountain will split apart and they will go through that way of protection seen in Revelation. And when the remaining nation of Israel sees the Christ defeating Satan by such miracles and wonders, then will the nation be saved. Then they will reign over nations, though not as kings like overcomers, the meek who inherit the earth. This will be the fullness of the first resurrection that of course is not complete yet for some are not even born yet.

As Christians, like the 7 churches who comprise Christians they all overcome but only a few receive manna and white stone for overcoming on earth receiving the rewards of reigning with Christ in the millennium while the rest of the Christians also overcome but by discipline in outer darkness.

Israel has not yet receive the New Covenant because they still have not received the Covenant of His blood that Christians have beforehand Matt. 26.28 and the contents of the covenant which are cleansing, life and power, and inward knowledge of God (Heb. 8.10-12). That will occur when Christ returns. What a day that will be. For such covenant promise see Jer. 31.31-33 which will be of course, in the millennium and as per covenant the nation of Israel will reign from Egypt to Euphrates river. How God will sort all this out at this time is His choosing. We merely have an increase in faith in this acceptance that He does not forget His conditional promises that He is righteously bound by, that we may even demand of Him for the legal document of the covenant is sealed in blood, the blood of Christ. Amen.




GoldRush

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2003, 01:30:39 PM »
KPMG,

Mr. Warren,

You sure do yap a lot without getting to the crux of the matter.


Mr. Warren has very patiently countered your lengthy posts in faithfulness to the Word of God, for the sake of his readers.  He does not deserve your rude comment.

But we are glad you made it . . .for you show your true colors.

Not that we had any doubts to begin with, for we are thoroughly familiar with the errors of Darby and the Brethren who spread the lies and confusion of "dispensationalism" as if they were the teachings of God.

You, sir, are a false prophet, preaching a false gospel, and the two of us will cease to read any further postings you may put up.   We will not and cannot be deceived by you.  (Matt. 24:24)

"Thus says the Lord God:  'Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!'"  Ezekiel 13:3

"They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, 'Thus says the Lord!'  But the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed."  Ezekiel 13:6

"Therefore thus says the Lord God:  'Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you,' says the Lord God."  Ezekiel 13:8




J&R
GoldRush
". . Without Me, you can do nothing."
  John 15:5

KPMG

  • Guest
Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2003, 01:36:49 PM »
Goldrush,

I dare not repeat myself again, cluttering up the board, not being adequately addressed by Mr. Warren for he did not read to understand as shown by his repetitive mistaken assumptions of what I believe, which he is free to believe in a box. I am of course disatisfied with Mr. Warren's assessment as detailed here (not dividing anything hardly as requested by Heb. 4.12), because:

1) he misses out on meaning and purpose rewards,
2) covenant promises to Judah and Israel, God's desire to walk with us again,
3) the overcoming life (walking and reigning with His overcomers with an iron rod),
4) Great Trib.,
5) not aware of the god of this world,
6) millennial reign (the actual time of recompense of reigning),
7) the complex of parousia (from air to earth coming in His Person),
8) 1st rapture (of living overcomers) to escape these things Luke 21.36,
9) not differentiating the necessity of dealing with sheep, which include the good nations, Christians and the jews, which are different than the goats (who take the mark),
10)outer darkness discipline for Christians for not overcoming harboring still some flesh or supernatural encumberance.
11) And I almost forgot not only are there the dogs (unregenerated who will take the mark),
12) but also the swine (Matthew 13) who are in Christendom but are unsaved, appearance of being clean on the outside with cloven hooves but dirty inside not chewing their cud.

These would likely take the mark mistaking it for something from God. To me such a view that tries to dissuade this does not know man, truly, nor himself in dispensation. You may consider all these spiritually built in motivators of God and Biblical Psychology, very spiritual, very fruitful and rewarding so as to be under no false delusion of what is to come and what we have now in resurrected life. Though still not yet clothed with new spiritual bodies received at 7th trumpet. For the few at 1st rapture raptured alive to the throne because they could no longer be hurt by the second death (comprise the 1st "best out-of" resurrection).

This wonderful dynamic and foreknowledge by God afforded us is lost in Mr. Warren's view. Too many Christians (and false believers) focuse on the saved or unsaved issue giving way to Satan's tactics, when the Bible is for the Christian on the overcoming life, that is, not only substitutory death, but identifying work in co-death and perfect obedience which will be rewarded in the kingdom. Such does not avail itself under ammellianism, preterism, post-millennianism for they teach some seriously different things that can not go unnoticed that prevent and dissallow these truths.

 


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