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Author Topic: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism  (Read 34881 times)

Chris

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2003, 11:32:21 PM »
I hoped not to repeat myself, but dispensation vs. what? and what do you call the what? I understand dispensation. I do not know of an alternative.

I had hoped not to repeat myself, but Dispensationalism is against itself. This isn't a boxing match, there is no vs what.

What you don't understand is that christians don't match Dispensationalism against Postmillennialism, or Postmillennialism against Amillennialism or Amillennialism against Preterism. It's not one vs the other. It's what does the bible say about past history, present history, and future history.

If you want to look at eschatology as if it were a boxing match, fine. But you're not going to learn anything that way. What does the scripture teach? Does it teach that God deals with man in many different dispensations and has separated Israel from the church, or does it teach that God has always had one people, all joined together into one covenant body representing Christ?

It's not one vs the other, it's what does the bible really teach. What are "you" bringing to the table here? Do you have scriptural basis for Dispensationalism? Amillennialism? Postmillennialism? If so, please let's hear it.


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What is the alternative that is suggested here?

The alternative to unbiblical doctrine is biblical doctrine. That means Jew and Gentile all reconciled together into one body in Christ eternally. Which invalidates that which is called Dispensationalism as a heresy that divides the body of Christ.


MAC

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2003, 09:05:45 AM »
I don't think that dispensationalists should be faulted for indulging in dispensationalism. If dividing the Word into different time segments during which God deals differently with men helps one with his understanding, then there seems to be nothing wrong with that. I myself am aware of two basic dispensations, the Old and the New, with a third one coming after the end of the world. But that's neither here nor there where the real problem exists with dispensationalism; it is the futuristic dogma they espouse. Actually, the correct term for this teaching should be Futurism.  

Dispensationalists appear to have adopted it, beginning with Darby, Scofield & Company near the beginning of the 1900's. It is through their effort that the teaching was popularized in this country:  the Scofield Reference Bible, Dallas Theological Seminary, etcetera.

There is, to this day, zealous propagation of a doctrine which is based on conjecture, misinterpretation of Scripture, and sometimes, sorry to say, outright untruths.

A good example of more than a "little white lie" is the very bad interpretation of Daniel 9:25, where a Bible scholar named Sir Robert Anderson calculated the time from the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto the
Messiah the Prince  69 weeks of years "TO THE VERY DAY." That just happened to be the same day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey, and known as the Triumphant Entry.

That would have been one of the most  remarkable  "accomplishments" in all of biblical scholarship, except for one little detail. Anderson  could not possibly have calculated TO THE VERY DAY, because the day of the commandment is never given in the Bible (or anywhere else), and every grade school student knows that to make such a calculation to the exact day, you must know exactly what day to begin your calculations from.

But Sir Anderson somehow knew to begin figuring from the First of Nisan. How did he know the commandment was given on the first of Nisan?

Here is what he says, "The Persian edict which restored the autonomy of Judah was issued in the Jewish month of Nisan. It MAY IN FACT have been dated from the 1st of Nisan..." *

How one can get an exact date from "IT MAY IN FACT HAVE BEEN" is something only a Futurist might know..

His "achievement" has been praised by Bible teachers and scholars - including dispensationalists - the world over.  That is one of the problems I have with dispensationalists/futurists. There are, of course, many other examples of such faulty teaching,  so the controversy should properly be labeled dispensationalism versus the Bible.

*  "Things To Come," written by J. Dwight Pentecost, page 244

(It was important to futurism to establish the time of Messiah as close to the crucifixion day as possible to enable that ungodly split between the 69th and the 70th weeks of Daniel, and push the 70th week far into the future. According to my interpretation (even if no one agrees), is that the time of the Messiah took place on the day of Jesus' baptism, some three and a half years before the Triumphant Entry.)


KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2003, 01:55:43 PM »
Chris,

I am no great scholar, just a child of God. These are the things that jump out to me from my reading of the Bible and infilling in my spirit.

Since the Jews reject Christ today (God's chosen ones - because He first revealed Himself in them), just as the Gentiles do, they are currently both unregenerated. But God made a few promises:
1)He will return when the fullness of Gentiles come in.
2)He promised to preserve the nation of Israel (currently not saved)
3)He will preserve the good nations
4)He talks about the rewards of reigning with Him in the 1000 year reign of Christ with his overcomers (1st "best out-of" resurrection) where Jews reign though not as kings; overcoming Christians reign as kings.
5)1st rapture takes place at the beginning of tribulation for those few alive overcomers who need not go through paradise Hades, because they can no longer be hurt by the second death, raptured transmutted, and ready to be received to the throne.
6)Christians are generally resurrected at 7th trumpet. Parousia is a process to judgment seat during the Tribulation.
7)At the end of the 1000 years the unsaved are resurrected to GWT and to lake of fire
8)After the millennial kingdom rewards are done away with and eternity future in the cube occurs
p.s. note during the 1000 year reign non-overcoming Christians are disciplined in outer darkness concurrently.

One has to ask when He will bring Jews back to Him? There is no other time that I can think of than the time of "Jacob's Trouble". I have lots of verses, but that is what I believe. Simple.

Which do you believe? Ammellianim, or post-millenianism or something other? I am not sure what kind of website this is, if it calvinist or armenian, or what it believes.




MAC

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2003, 04:06:14 PM »
 KPMG:
You wrote:
Since the Jews reject Christ today (God's chosen ones - because He first revealed Himself in them), just as the Gentiles do, they are currently both unregenerated.


I agree. Because "Jews" and Gentiles today are all the same - there is no difference,  then unbelieving "Jews" and Gentiles today are unregenerated.

You wrote:
 I am no great scholar, just a child of God. These are the things that jump out to me from my reading of the Bible and infilling in my spirit.


I think that you are one of the lucky ones. As a non-scholar, there is much that you don't have to unlearn. On the other hand, I see that there is a great deal  that you've learned already from listening to Bible scholars, and some preachers that repeat what they have learned from scholars. For example, you write,

You wrote:
  1)He will return when the fullness of Gentiles come in.

The Bible does not say that. Instead, it  says,  "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Rom. 11:25). Scholars had me fooled for many years until I discovered from both the Old and New Testaments exactly when the blindness of Israel ended. From that I learned the meaning of "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." It has nothing to do with the "filling up of the Gentile Church" in this age.

You wrote
He promised to preserve the nation of Israel (currently not saved)

God did make that promise - and would have kept it, had Israel not rejected Him.

You wrote
He will preserve the good nations

I agree, with a few possible reservations.

You wrote:
He talks about the rewards of reigning with Him in the 1000 year reign of Christ with his overcomers (1st "best out-of" resurrection) where Jews reign though not as kings; overcoming Christians reign as kings.  

As best as I can tell from Scripture, the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 are not to be construed as exactly 1000 years. Even dispensationalists admit that this could be any multiple of 1000, give or take a few years.

Also, and I won't argue this too strongly, in the next life the Jews who remained faithful to Christ up until the A.D. 70 holocaust will rule with Him in the New Jerusalem, while the rest of us (Gentiles) will rule from somewhere else on earth.

Here's a question for you: If all the good people are saved and rule,  and the bad are lost, whom shall the good people rule, each other? I wouldn't ask a scholar. So far, they have indicated that they don't really know much.

I would restudy some of the Scriptures you listed. Study them in the context of the whole Bible. And scrutinize carefully anything written by dispensational futurists.

Sorry for jumping in without being envited. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth.

KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2003, 05:49:06 PM »
You wrote: I agree. Because "Jews" and Gentiles today are all the same - there is no difference,  then unbelieving "Jews" and Gentiles today are unregenerated.

Whereas I think God has a special place in His heart for those He first revealed Himself to. I love this about God. It shows his attachment and how unchanging and unforgetful His promise is.

You wrote: I discovered from both the Old and New Testaments exactly when the blindness of Israel ended. From that I learned the meaning of "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." It has nothing to do with the "filling up of the Gentile Church" in this age.

I find that my spirit as well as my mind disagree with this since the blindness of Israel still exists. And today is the church, not to fill a gap as you say, but the mystery of the church age is upon us and Israel will be blinded until the fullness of gentiles comes in.

You wrote: God did make that promise - and would have kept it, had Israel not rejected Him.

I believe He did seen throughout the OT. Conditional promises are conditional , not never to be fulfilled. The condition is when the fullness of the gentiles come in completing the time of Jacob's Trouble and its purpose.

You wrote:As best as I can tell from Scripture, the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 are not to be construed as exactly 1000 years. Even dispensationalists admit that this could be any multiple of 1000, give or take a few years.

It is 1000 years. That is why it says 1000 years.

You wrote: Also, and I won't argue this too strongly, in the next life the Jews who remained faithful to Christ up until the A.D. 70 holocaust will rule with Him in the New Jerusalem, while the rest of us (Gentiles) will rule from somewhere else on earth.

I don't believe 70 A.D. is of much significance other than the tearing down of the temple and fulfilling only but a small part of Matthew 24 with much left remaining to be completed in the centuries that follow (eg. Rev. 6) and of course Great Trib.
Gentiles don't rule. Overcomers in Christ reign and rule with Christ with an iron rod. Christians have the power, not the nations. Who is their to rule over if the nations are ruling us?

You wrote: Here's a question for you: If all the good people are saved and rule,  and the bad are lost, whom shall the good people rule, each other? I wouldn't ask a scholar. So far, they have indicated that they don't really know much.

That was neat. You asked me the question I already answered above. I must be an extra step ahead of ya. Just teasing.

You wrote: I would restudy some of the Scriptures you listed. Study them in the context of the whole Bible. And scrutinize carefully anything written by dispensational futurists.

Thanks for that wonderful suggestion. They seem to hold the truth in their hearts. Praise the Lord!

Tony Warren

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2003, 06:21:43 PM »
>>>
Since the Jews reject Christ today (God's chosen ones - because He first revealed Himself in them), just as the Gentiles do, they are currently both unregenerated. But God made a few promises:
1)He will return when the fullness of Gentiles come in.
<<<

And He will return when the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Because then all will be fulfilled. Right now both unsaved Jews and unsaved Gentiles reject Christ as Saviour, so there is no difference. Moreover, from scripture it is evident that salvation went to the Jew first, and then the Gentile--not vice versa. In your eschatology, the Jew is NOT first, but after the Gentiles, which is in direct contradiction to the written word.

Romans 11:25-26
  • "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
  • And so all Israel shall be Saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Actually, God promised that blindness would be upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in, and so (literally, thusly) shall all Israel be saved. It doesn't say, "and after that I shall save Israel." Dispensationalists "ADD" that to God's word, but it actually is not there.

Unfortunately, some Christians are still ignorant of the full import of "this mystery" to this very day. The controversy comes in the phrase, 'Blindness in part has happened to Israel till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.' Many people are confused as to what this means. But it is simply building upon what Paul has just previously stated in the chapter. He says he doesn't want them to be "ignorant of the mystery" which is that the Gentiles are to be part of this same covenant and 'One Body,' which is Christ, the Israel of God. He has spoken of the revelation of the mystery that has always been God's plan, but had been kept secret. The secret that the Gentile nations would be made a part of Israel, grafted into the very same New Covenant Israel (represented symbolically by the Olive Tree of Romans 11).

Ephesians 1:9-10
  • "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in Himself:
  • That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

In the fullness of time, it was revealed that the Gentiles would also be a part of the commonwealth of Israel. That is the mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, but is now revealed. i.e., to the Jew first, and then the Gentiles. Not Jew, Gentile and back to Jew, but to one, and then the other. And that is what this chapter is talking about. They were first, now they're last, as it's now the Gentiles turn. There is no special dispensation of time for the salvation of Jewish people after the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Understand, the word says the Jew is first (not first and third), and then the Gentiles grafted ihn And thus (in this way) all Israel shall be saved. So all nations have the same opportunity to be children of God. God has revealed the mystery that has been hid from other ages, and Paul doesn't want the Romans to be ignorant or un-knowledgeable about this mystery. Gentiles are fellow heirs with the Jews. There is no separation, there is one body, one Head, One Olive tree, One new Covenant Israel. The same mystery Paul wrote to the Ephesians in explaining:

Ephesians 3:3-6
  • "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
  • Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the
    mystery of Christ)
  • Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
  • That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Jews are not a different body as Dispensationalists unbiblically surmise, they are of the same body. The Jews are not coming in after this dispensation, they are not a different elect or a different chosen of God, and they are not a different congregation. The Gentiles are not obtaining a separate inheritance apart from the Jews, but the Gentiles are fellow heirs of the same body of Jews, and partaking of the 'same' promises, the same fatness of the Olive Tree which unambiguously[ is Israel. They are being grafted into Covenant Israel, and when the fullness of them be come in, So (in this manner) all Israel shall be saved. Even history shows salvation went to the Jews first, but now also goes to the Gentiles.

That Greek word translated "so" [houto] in Romans chapter 11 (so all Israel shall be saved) is never translated then, meaning "following this"  or after this. It is a word which means Thusly or "in this manner." That is a fact which anyone can check for themselves.


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>>>
2)He promised to preserve the nation of Israel (currently not saved)
<<<

Scripture reveals that God made both conditional promises, and unconditional promises mirroring the Covenant of works, and the Covenant of Grace. If Israel could have kept the covenant of works, there would be no need for a covenant of Grace.

But God never made any unconditional promises to the nation Israel to preserve it. If He had made such a promise, they would have never been destroyed as a nation the last 2000 years. The Israelite nation was destroyed "BECAUSE" God never made a promise that it wouldn't be. Obviously! Just because they are now back in the land, does not give credence to Dispensationalism. It is a witness to God's divine providence, and no doubt "testing."


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>>>
3)He will preserve the good nations
<<<

There are no good nations. There is only the Chosen (Elect) of the nations, made good by having been washed in the blood of Christ and engrafted into the Israel of God.


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>>>
4)He talks about the rewards of reigning with Him in the 1000 year reign of Christ with his overcomers (1st "best out-of" resurrection) where Jews reign though not as kings; overcoming Christians reign as kings.
<<<

Now that would be some trick, to reign but not as kings, since reigning [basileuo] means to rule, and on top of that God tells us quite plainly that they sit upon thrones reigning with Christ. Kings sit upon thrones. Dispensationalism is a house of cards, which will all come tumbling down when the rains come and the "wind blows."

Revelation 20:4
  • "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

All God's children reign with Him as Kings and Priests unto God.


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>>>
5)1st rapture takes place at the beginning of tribulation for those few alive overcomers who need not go through paradise Hades, because they can no longer be hurt by the second death, raptured transmutted, and ready to be received to the throne.
<<<

There is "ONLY" one rapture, and it is at "The Last Day." There is only one physical coming of Christ, and it is at "The Last Day." There is only one "First Resurrection," and it is the Resurrection in Christ, that He would have preeminence, rank, position (be first). That is why "HE" is the First Resurrected from the Dead. Those who have part in this First Resurrection, upon them the second death has no power. Both Jew and Gentile. For they overcome death in him!

1st Corinthians 15:21-22
  • "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
  • For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Ephesians 2:56-57
  • "Even when we were Dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, by Grace ye are Saved,
  • and hath Raised us up together, and made us to sit  in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

What raising up or resurrection from the dead is this? If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not?  These souls reigning with Christ reign because they were in Christ when He went to the cross and they were raised up with Him (The First Resurrection) to be seated in heavenly places, having Judgment of God with Power, because God dwells within them. Anyone who tries to tell you that the first resurrection hasn't happened yet, either doesn't know the scriptures very well, or is deliberately ignoring them.

If you recall when Mary's brother Lazarus died, Jesus came to her and she said, I know he will be raised at "The Last Day". Well, the last day is the day of the Rapture, but that is the second resurrection, not the first! So Jesus made it perfectly clear to her of the first Resurrection, which is in Him--and in that resurrection, Lazarus would never die.

John 11:25
  • "Jesus said unto her, I Am The Resurrection and the Life. He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,
  • and whosoever that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believeth thou this?"

..believest thou this? Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection has not occurred or is not in Christ are contradicting God's word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.

Acts 26:23
  • "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".


That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the "First Resurrection" from the dead, and should show light unto the people. The term for "first" is [protos] and is the same in both Acts and Revelation. Likewise the verb [anastasis/i]] is used in both places for resurrection and rise. So here we have the 'unadulterated' word of God calling Christ the "First Resurrection." So I ask again, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation of the First Resurrection, or our own? These are the same Greek words used in Revelation chapter twenty (First Resurrection). So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or a spin I put on it,nor rhetoric, it is a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And likewise, we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.

Colossians 1:18
  • "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".
Hebrews 12:23
  • "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

Christ is the first resurrection from the dead, and we in Him.


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6)Christians are generally resurrected at 7th trumpet. Parousia is a process to judgment seat during the Tribulation.
<<<

Christians are (as quoted word for word) resurrected in Christ first, that they will never die. That's a undeniable fact of scripture. We are raised up with Him in His first Resurrection. So does His resurrection have preeminence as first as God said, or is it all just a lie? And are we raised up with Him?

Colossians 2:12
  • "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

 And as scripture says, Christ is the firstborn from the dead (First Resurrection) that in all things He might have Preeminence! To say he is not the first resurrection is confusion.

You are right (according to scripture) on one thing. Christians are resurrected at 7th trumpet. But that is at the second Resurrection at "The Last Day." Likewise is all the world resurrected, the dead, those in the sea, and everyone else. The 7th trumpet is the "LAST TRUMPET" when there shall be time no more (contrary to Dispensationalism).


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7)At the end of the 1000 years the unsaved are resurrected to GWT and to lake of fire
<<<

Agreed.


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After the millennial kingdom rewards are done away with and eternity future in the cube occurs
p.s. note during the 1000 year reign non-overcoming Christians are disciplined in outer darkness concurrently.
<<<

Where do you read that in scripture? This is another Dispensational private interpretation.


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>>>
One has to ask when He will bring Jews back to Him? There is no other time that I can think of than the time of "Jacob's Trouble". I have lots of verses, but that is what I believe. Simple.
<<<

Lots of verses? Where are they? And do they say, what you think they say? This is the question. As for when God will bring the Jews back to Him? He already has brought a remnant, as the Apostle Paul so clearly said when He "rhetorically asked:"

Romans 11:1
  • "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

The answer is no, God Forbid, He has not cast off His people as Paul declares himself an example of that fact. But all Israel shall be "defined" by God and not man. Note that Paul says that he is living proof that God has not cast away His people. What the Dispensationalists must understand is that:

Romans 9:6
  • "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
  • Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Those whom God defines as Israel God will draw to Christ, and those whom God defines as Jews God will draw to Him. The rest will die in unbelief just like the vast majority of Gentiles. There is no difference.


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>>>
Which do you believe? Ammellianim, or post-millenianism or something other? I am not sure what kind of website this is, if it calvinist or armenian, or what it believes.
<<<

Allow me to enlighten you. This is a "Biblical" Website. We don't follow John Calvin, John Walvord, Hal Lindsay, Loraine Boettner, Jacobus Armenius, or Augustin of Hippo. We follow "specifically" what the scripture teaches. So that should make it easy for you to refute it, since all you have to do is deny the scriptures that I have been witnessing to you. Selah!

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 

KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2003, 07:18:15 PM »
You wrote: 'One Body' which is Christ Israel.

I believe that grafting nevertheless still preserves the nation and identify of Israel because God so loved His chosen ones in remembrance and never forgets for the purposes of the millennial reign of Christ, but afterwards the rewards are done away with in eternity future. God will have His Day of the Lord and will walk with us in that Day once again.


You wrote:
There is no special dispensation of time for the Salvation of Jewish people after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Understand, the Jew is first (not first and third)

Jews rejected being 1st, that is why they are 3rd now. This means that it is only the appearance of Christ Himself in His parousia that can save the nation of Israel, that is how fargone they are. They are not raptured like Christians. Rather they are transferred livingingly into the millennial kingdom, like other nations.  There are 3 groups: the Jews and the nations (gentiles) which are not saved, right now. and the Christians which are.

You wrote: But God never made any unconditional promises to the nation Israel to preserve it. If He had made such a promise, they would have never been destroyed as a nation the last 2000 years. The Israel nation was destroyed and scattered "BECAUSE" God never made a promise that it wouldn't be.

That is why it is not unconditional. It is conditional. And that condition believe it or not, God foreknows will be fulfilled at Christ's parousia. He already knows this. And so do I.

You wrote: There are no good nations. There is only the Chosen (elect) people of nations made good by having been washed in the blood of Christ.

At Great Trib. many bad, on the left, the goats, will take the mark of the beast, even Jews, though not the nation that will be preserved. The sheep on Christ's right hand will be of 3 types that will not take the mark: Jews, Christians, gentiles (good nations). Overcomers in Christ will reign over these good nations in the millennial kingdom.

You wrote: Now that would be some trick, to reign but not as kings, since reigning [basileuo] means to rule,

The reigning of the Jews will be from a centering of Christ's reigning in Jerusalem, even from the dead sea to the Euphrates River, housed by the Jewish nation, Israel. They will not be reigning as overcomers for they never overcame in Christ, but they will have a roll as the center of all nations. That it is what it means that they will reign, though not as kings.

You wrote: There is "ONLY" one rapture, and it is at "The last day." There is only one physical coming of Christ, and it is at "The ast Day." There is only one First Resurrection, and it is the Resurrection in Christ. "HE" is the First Resurrected from the Dead. Those who have part in this First resurrection, upon them the second death has no power.

There is a difference between rapture and resurrection. Rapture is about readiness and being given newly clothed spiritual bodies, whereas resurrection is about being resurrected from Paradise Hades (that is why it is Paradise, because it is ok to wait for an extended time here), even where David is now. The process of Christ's parousia is first in the air and followed by His physical presence.

You wrote: If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not?  These souls reigning with Christ reign because they were in Christ when He went to the cross and they were raised up with Him (The First Resurrection) to be seated in heavenly places having the Judgment of God with Power, because God dwelleth within them. Anyone who tries to tell you that the first resurrection hasn't happened yet, either doesn't know the scriptures very well, or is deliberately ignoring them.

The first resurrection has not happened yet for Christ has not come yet, nor have even some been born yet. eg. Those martyrd in Great Trib. have not been resurrected yet since Great Trib. has not commenced yet (see Rev. 6.11) "wait a little longer". Remember the book of Revelation is a book of the future mostly unfulfilled for how strange it would be if it was mostly already fulfilled. Historicalists have to be wrong otherwise only great historians would be saved, but the promises of God's parousia is for everyone for hope and we may escape these things Luke 21.36 if we are watchful, and if we keep the Word of His patience we need not go through the time of testing Rev. 3.10.

You wrote: If you recall when Mary's brother Lazarus died, Jesus came to her and she said, I know he will be raised at "The Last Day". Well, the last day is the day of the Rapture, but it's the second resurrection, not the first! But Jesus made it perfectly clear to her of another Resurrection. The First!

The day of the Lord comprises all that encompases His return from 1st rapture to the millennial kingdom reign.  1st resurrection does not suggest there are multiple resurrections, but rather it is a "out of best" resurrection from 1st rapture to the past 20 centuries, old saints, overcomers throughout and martyrs during Great Trib. whether raptured alive at 1st rapture or at 7th trumpet. You just don't see a second resurrection in scripture though because rapture is not resurrection and rapture is about readiness, like an Enoch we can be raptured at 1st rapture as well as raptured after resurrected at 7th trumpet.

You wrote: God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection.

Just like Christ, 1st resurrection should be considered as not the whole body of Christ, just those overcomers in Christ that will receive the reward of reigning with Christ with an iron rod during the millennial kingdom. This is the blessed reward of overcoming.

You wrote: Christians are (as quoted word for word) resurrected in Christ first. That's a undeniable fact of scripture. We are raised up with Him in His first Resurrection.

This is not exactly the meaning, as stated before, of what 1st resurrection means. 1st resurrection relates to rewards of the kingdom, not all Christians will partake of this being disciplined in outer darkness for a time.

You wrote: You are right (according to scripture) in one thing. Christians are resurrected at 7th trumpet. But that is at the second Resurrection at "The Last Day." Likewise is all the world resurrected, the dead, those in the sea, and everyone else. The 7th trumpet is the "LAST TRUMPET" when there shall be time no more (contrary to dispensationalist thought).

There is no detail of 2nd resurrection. God is merely stating a fact of the 1st resurrection being a "best out-of" resurrection from the general resurrection. At the 7th trumpet, what follows is the millennial kingdom because God wants to walk with His overcomers, what He has longed for on earth, for 1000 years. Think of this as a prepatory period for the cube which is to follow for all of eternity. Only then after this will the earth pass away and no longer be of use.

You wrote: Where do you read that in scripture?

Matthew 25.30. Notice when referring to outer darkness the Bible never refers to the furnace. It is because non-overcoming Christians will yet be hurt by the second death, unlike their brethren the 1st resurrection which can never be hurt by the second death.

You wrote:  As for when God will bring the Jews back to Him? He already has, as the Apostle paul so clearly said whene "rhetorically asked:Romans 11:1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of BenjaminAnd the answer is no, but all Israel shall be "defined:" by God and not man. paul says that he is living proof that God has not cast away His people. But what the Romans must understand is that:Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Those born into Israel are still Jews, but they have forsaken the Christ and so God allows the Gentiles to come to Christ to convince the chosen ones. And when their fullness comes in the nation of Israel will finally accept our Risen Lord. This is not a fact, for it has not happened yet. It is a conditional promise. A promise conditional on the fullness of the gentiles coming in. If God tarried any longer than this we would all die, but he by His mercy and grace keeps His promise not only to the body of Christ, but also to His chosen ones.


MAC

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2003, 10:29:16 PM »
I think that trying to see the whole biblical picture at one sitting may be a bit overwhelming.
Why not break things down and work on a single topic at a time?

For starters, I would ask the question: Does Revelation say that Christ is to rule on earth 1000 years? Where is the "thousand years" mentioned in the Bible, and why do you think that it means 1000 years?

KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2003, 10:38:54 PM »
If you read my answers above, at least it gives you an understanding of how easy it is to explain the dispensational view and how it flows effortlessly which is why I am convinced it is God's original Word.

The basic idea is that God wants to walk with His children not in the garden but something greater, but not with fleshly Christians, but those who truly overcome in Him and as a matter of reward they receive their reigning with Him, and will be as kings with Him ruling with an "iron rod".

20.4-6 THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM

20.4   Three classes of people will reign with Christ:


(1)   The overcomers will sit on thrones, and judgment will be given to them (20.4a). This shows that they have inherited the kingdom (see also Dan. 7.10, 18, 22-“Saints of the Most High”).

(2)   The martyrs throughout the 20 centuries (“them that had been beheaded”-20.4b). These are the souls under the alter as shown in the fifth seal (6.9f). It is for “the testimony of Jesus” that they are killed.

(3)   The martyrs during the Great Tribulation. These are those who do not worship the beast nor his image, and upon whose foreheads and hands no mark of the beast is received (20.4c).

“They lived” – Let us notice two things:

(1)   These people are not resurrected at the time of 20.4. Their resurrection is merely retraced here as an accomplished fact. John does not see them resurrected at that moment; he only acknowledges that they live.

(2)   Those here who live include not only the resurrected but also those who are raptured alive; for we cannot assert that only those who are resurrected  reign here with Christ; since even though the number of people who are raptured alive may not be great they nevertheless shall reign with Christ too.

20.5   “The first resurrection”-This does not necessarily mean that there is only one resurrection, nor does it denote that there are many resurrections. It simply signifies this as being the “best” resurrection.

The word “the” includes the two things mentioned in the last clause of 20.4:
(1)   “Lived” and (2) “reigned”:

The best resurrection means to live and to reign. Such a resurrection is a reward, for there is a reigning with Christ for a thousand years as well as a being resurrected.

“The second death” of 20.6 is in contrast with “the first resurrection”, because the latter means to enjoy glory while the former means to suffer eternally. Hence the first resurrection is none other than the time of recompense (Luke 14.14, 20.34-36).

What Paul says in Philippians 3.11 is not an expecting to be raised from the dead (for all the dead shall be resurrected), nor an anticipating the resurrection of the spirit (for the resurrection of the spirit is already an accomplished at the time of new birth). No, what Paul is looking forward to is the “out-resurrection” from among the dead, which is the “best” resurrection spoken of here in 20.5, even a reigning with the Lord.

Read again Philippians 1.23-25. There in that epistle’s first chapter Paul is saying he will live; he is not contemplating death. How, then, can he be talking about resurrection? He clearly states in Philippians 3.20,21 that he waits for the coming of the Lord.  Consequently, what he anxiously hopes for is to reign with the Lord.
“The rest of the dead” naturally includes all the unsaved sinners. Their resurrection will come to pass a thousand years later.

20.6 “Blessed” should be translated literally as “happy”-Those who appear to be happy today may not be holy, while those who are holy can hardly be happy today.
The first resurrection is blessed in three ways”

(1) “Over these the second death hath no power”-The second death is the lake of fire. Those who have no part in the first resurrection may yet be hurt by the second death. Some Christians will be disciplined in the future (see Matt. 18.34,35) (like thrown into jail until fully repaid to a just God for not forgiving others). He who wrongs his brother will be punished by the Lord (1 Thess. 4.5,6). We believers are exhorted to fear Him who has authority to cast into hell (Greek, gehenna), thus implying that over some Christians hell still has its threat (Luke 12.4,5). If a branch does not abide in Christ, he, like a branch, is liable to be cast off, withered, cast into the fire and burned (John 15.6).

Some, though, may ask, Does not the Bible teach that once a person is saved he will never perish? Why then do you say here that Christians may appear as though to perish? This is due none other than to a misunderstanding of some Scripture verses such as the following:

“He shall never see death” (John 8.51,52) is actually “he shall not forever see death” in the original, and “he shall never taste death” is “he shall not forever taste death” in the original.
“They shall never perish” (John 10.28) is “they shall not forever perish” in the original.
“Shall never die” (John 11.25,26) is “shall not forever die” in the original.
(receives death according to what is due him)

(2) “They shall be priests of God and of Christ”-The significance of a priest is to draw near to God. This people shall be very close to God for they shall have a special relationship with Him and Christ. Today we are priests, therefore all may draw nigh to God. But in the millennial kingdom only those who have part in the first resurrection shall function as priests to God and to Christ.

Aaron functioned as a priest because his rod budded. The budded rod represents resurrection. Whoever is chosen priest is proven by (first) resurrection. When the children of Israel came out of Egypt they all were destined to be priests (Ex. 19.6). Due to their worshiping the golden calf, however, God later chose the family of Aaron to be priests.

“They shall be priests…of Christ”, since at this time Christ shall receive worship as much as God himself is worshipped.

(3) “And shall reign with him a thousand years”-As a rule, in Old Testament times no king was able to be a priest, and no priest, a king. But here is a people who are both priests and kings. As priests, they draw near to God; as kings, they rule over the earth. Only those who have suffered are entitled to reign and enjoy glory with Christ.

Here we are told only the fact that they do reign, we are not informed as to how they reign. No doubt the reigning here is heavenly in nature.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Christ will come back exactly as he left in His Person

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

As he went from earth up into a cloud, so he will return in His Person. Rev. 1.7 agrees with Matthew 24.30

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Everybody sees His entrance like lightening. Do not believe those who say he will come stealthily

GoldRush

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2003, 11:52:47 PM »
KPMG,


If you read my answers above, at least it gives you an understanding of how easy it is to explain the dispensational view and how it flows effortlessly which is why I am convinced it is God's original Word.


This is simply not so.  Your posts are overwhelming because of their CONFUSING contradictions to the Word of God.

But this does not surprise us.

When we were first saved by God and had the new desire to worship, we went to a neighborhood church nearby, which was teaching dispensationalism.  We knew no better, for we had no Christian influences in our lives at all, and we knew no church from another.

We remained under dispensationalist teaching for a total of seven years, but during that time the Spirit of Truth gave us a hunger and thirst for the Scriptures, and while we sat under the false teaching of dispensationalism, we were privately reading the Bible at home . . .a lot.

And we found that none of what we were reading and learning from the Spirit of God was matching the things we were being taught in church.

In fact, we only received very CONFUSING teachings at church, compared to the clarity in our Bible studies at home.

 We came to the conclusion that the dispensational teaching was diabolical and its teachings succeed to trap persons in heresy through the power of pure CONFUSION.

For the elders that taught us were CONFUSED by their own teaching, and there was no agreement amongst them.  It was so CONFUSING, the congregation had become weary and no longer had the energy to wonder, doubt, or ask thought-out questions about  what was being taught.  They had given up.  Brain-washing was in control through the power of total and dark CONFUSION.

Satan loves to CONFUSE, but the Holy Spirit of God does not work that way.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."  I Cor. 14:33

God was good to lead us out of dispensational CONFUSION and release us from the power it had exerted over us.

We found other Christians who worshipped according to the plain message of the Bible, who taught us God's clear truths and we grew in true knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel of grace.

But it took us about 15 years to rid our minds of the systematic garbage of CONFUSING facts that had accumulated during our dispensational trek.  It took us this long to forget and Scripturally correct the convoluted and misleading teachings about different dispensations, along with all the (supposedly)numerous resurrections, judgments, gospels, etc.

What we are saying, is that you are being terribly misled by CONFUSION.  And CONFUSION is not from the Lord.

The truths of God are simple, consistent, and clear if one relies totally on His Word and Holy Spirit as teacher.

As you stand now, when you present your CONFUSION for examination, and someone attempts to respond to you with Scriptures, your CONFUSED (and most often unscriptural) rebuttals add more CONFUSION in the attempt, with the result of wearying the patience of your respondent.

And it does become tiresome very quickly to try to answer or get through to you people.  Prayer is often the only answer . . .prayer that God will have mercy on your soul, and on your poor MIND, and bring you out of this spiritual darkness into His light.

J&R



GoldRush
". . Without Me, you can do nothing."
  John 15:5

judykanova

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2003, 12:41:28 AM »
Great post J&R!   I appreciate your testimony that many, I'm sure, can identify with to some extent, as well as your wise counsel.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2003, 12:56:05 AM »
You wrote: This is simply not so.  Your posts are overwhelming because of their CONFUSING contradictions to the Word of God.

Note that it is not confusing to me, only to you. It is really quite simple. There has been many retorts, and as you notice in my previous 2 posts preceeding this one, I answered to each of them. Note also that I believe in partial rapture, which brings together the body of Christ, bringing together those who hold the pre-trib and post-trib views, and receiving thus the blessing of Rev. 1.3. It is wonderful. I am sorry to hear you have fallen away into another view. One where, I presume now the nation of Israel is not treated with the respect God has promised His chosen ones. I fear this ultimately is the danger of falling away from dispensationalism. There is an additional concern, one where I see "good nations" not being admonished and preserved, even though they had nothing to do with the battles of Armegeddon when God transfers them livingly into the millennial kingdom. Who is to reign if their is no nations? I honestly belief that if a person spent an extra 15 or 30 minutes reading or praying on what was said they could deeply understand its import. I consider this the deeper work in Christ when one can forsake themselves for  the deeper inner working of the Holy Spirit.



judykanova

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2003, 01:57:59 AM »
Quote
There has been many retorts, and as you notice in my previous 2 posts preceeding this one, I answered to each of them.

KPMG, you presented many 'opinions', but I see virtually no Scriptures in support of them.  In other words.... you've answered nothing.  Please go back and familiarize yourself with how this board operates.  Also please go back and consider reply#8, which clarifies who the 'Israel' of God -- the true Jews by God's definition really are; then respond with Scripture if you're genuinely interested in getting at Truth.

There are many false teachers and doctrines that claim 'thus saith the Lord', when the Lord hath not said.  That's why the discussions here center around what the Scriptures actually say.  Thanks.


Ezek 13:6-7

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?


Ezek 22:28-29

28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.



judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

KPMG

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2003, 02:06:27 AM »
You wrote: KPMG, you presented many 'opinions', but I see virtually no Scriptures in support of them.  In other words.... you've answered nothing.  Please go back and familiarize yourself with how this board operates.  Also please bo back and consider reply#8, then respond with Scripture if you're genuinely interested in getting at Truth.

You may not see scripture support and you may think it is opinion, but for me it is the Holy Spirit's testimony in my spirit and my spirit testifies with the Spirit that it is true perfectly in agreement with the Word of God, and dispensationalists agree generally, especially those who believe in partial rapture, specifically. I have explained all this so that you can understand the position of dispensationalism, even though you are unable to understand it. Understand that it is complete and holy and righteous and truth and graced by God reflecting His fact, promise and covenant.

In response to reply #8, note that the Christian is in fact now the true Jew and the nation of Israel has forsaken such title, until at Christ's parousia they shall accept Him for who could deny the wonders Christ performs at His coming to take down the dragon, antichrist and the false prophet. Also realizing that dispensationalism does not reject covenentalism either for God makes several covenants.


judykanova

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Re: The False Doctrine of Dispensationalism
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2003, 03:13:26 AM »
Quote
You may not see scripture support and you may think it is opinion, but for me it is the Holy Spirit's testimony in my spirit and my spirit testifies with the Spirit that it is true perfectly in agreement with the Word of God, and dispensationalists agree generally, especially those who believe in partial rapture, specifically.


KPMG, Exactly what 'Word of God' are you 'pefectly in agreement with'? Chapter and verse, in context please.  Or else, admit that this so called 'testimony' of yours is based on what you've been told, but not what you yourself have taken the time to examine closely to see if true.

2 Tim 2:15-16

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


Acts 17:10-12

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.



judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

 


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