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Author Topic: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?  (Read 42723 times)

Maurice

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2010, 09:35:32 AM »
Jonah,
  Please don't take offense like Judy, but I read the same thread that you did, and nowhere did I get the impression that you did. And when I read this last post of yours, I went back and read the entire thread again, thinking maybe I had missed something. But again, I saw no such teaching or sense that anything hateful or anyone teaching that homosexuality was a greater sin in general. The sense I got, and what was actually stated, is that homosexuality is the undoing of the natural order, and that it is the unbridled worldwide increase of this sin that is the sign of the end.


On the other hand, you are the one who should understands that this type of talk is going to be offensive to Christians who love homosexuals just like anybody else. Because homosexuals are just like you and I, they are not this class of people who are to be hated and persecuted. So yes, people are offended by your words.

Why don't you try the path of love for a change and not condemn the homosexuals? You can preach the truth, but with love. But what I hear people like you and Reformer and Tony Warren deal in is legalistic, harsh and graceless. That's not speaking the truth in love. You don't have to point out homosexuality as the sin of the end times, there are lots of sins.
That's my view of it.



Tony Warren

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2010, 02:36:03 PM »
>>>
On the other hand, you are the one who should understands that this type of talk is going to be offensive to Christians who love homosexuals just like anybody else.
<<<

 But that's just it. What we've said shouldn't be offensive to any professing Christian, and that it obviously is, is a testament not only to the times in which we live, but the state of Christiandom. They have the mind of the world, and what's worse, they don't even know it. Sign of the times.


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Because homosexuals are just like you and I, they are not this class of people who are to be hated and persecuted. So yes, people are offended by your words.
<<<

Well now you are getting "near" to the truth. Except that it is not our words, but the word of God. We are merely witnesses of it. We live in a world where society in general is homosexual-conscious so that even when we preach of homosexuality as a non-Christian sin, we are then categorized as homophobic, hateful, persecuting, unloving, un-gracious, etc. And unfortunately, many Christians, having become of the world and living their lives exactly like the world, have fallen into that same snare.

Exodus 23:33
  • "They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee."

You say people are offended by our words, but truly they are offended by God's harsh words against homosexuality. But since they can't take it out on Him, they direct their "feelings" toward the witnesses. I have no delusion that the gospel truth will not offend somebody. Yes, it absolutely will and has. That's the very nature of the Bible, because it's very critical, disapproving, nitpicking, judgmental, unsympathetic, fault-finding, censorious, etc. All the things that the world hates. So of course, when we bring the word "faithfully" it will be very critical, disapproving, nitpicking, judgmental, unsympathetic, fault-finding and censorious. It say, the other guy's not responsible, YOU ARE! No scapegoat! No politically correct answers so no one to blame for their sins. Truth or consequences. Of course people will be offended. But the real sad part is that the Christians today want to re-temper the word to make it lukewarm instead of hot and cold, so that it is "more comfortable" and doesn't offend anyone. Least of all homosexuals -- this is euphemistically called ..Love!


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Why don't you try the path of love for a change and not condemn the homosexuals? You can preach the truth, but with love.
<<<

If I had a nickle for everytime I heard that Phrase, "speak the truth in love" used in this unbiblical sense, I wouldn't ever lack for nickles again. The fact is, this isn't speaking the truth in love, it is as many Christians today do, which is re-define love that it cover over the truth. Like putting a dress and perfume on a pig and calling it a maiden. That is the delusion that the Devil works, making something appear to be something that it is not. As a woman all arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, looking like she is so precious and virtuous, while her words are what actually gives away that she is a snare to those who pass her way. i.e. fair speach doesn't belies the true nature of the beast.

Proverbs 7:21-25
  • "With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
  • He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
  • Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
  • Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
  • Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths."

There is no "truth in this love" there is only strong delusion. And sadly, the people are missing the point. Speaking the truth in love entails speaking the truth because you love, not forebearing to speak for some worldly sense of political correctness or sensibilities. That is as far from love as this woman's enticements are.


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But what I hear people like you and Reformer and Tony Warren deal in is legalistic, harsh and graceless.
<<<

Matthew 5:17-19
  • "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
  • For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
  • Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

he law is fulfilled., The question is, for who? So you aren't the first to make this claim of legalism and harshness, nor do I think you'll be the last (god willing). Often I hear, even Christians, speak of the strong preaching against sin, of damnation and of repentance (like was normal 50 to 70 years ago) as legalistic, harsh and graceless. Some call us Bible Thumpers. And any preacher today daring to condemn sexual immorality, Homosexuality, Paganism, Divorce or preaching on hell and damnation immediately considered radical, unloving and not Christ-like. But nothing could be further from the truth. These caricatures and false accusations by modern day "so-called" Christians ring hollow and baseless.


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That's not speaking the truth in love.
<<<

Speaking the truth in love is speaking in the love of truth. Speaking with agape benevolent charity that your brother might also have the truth that you do. i.e., Love thy neighbor as thyself. not with lip service is saying I love homosexuals like everyone else, but with God service, where our heart is to speak to them in the love of truth that they might be saved. not live un-offended in this world. What good is that? What good is it to them to live un-offended and never see life? If that is where your heart is, your heart is in the wrong place.

1st John 3:17-21
  • "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
  • My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
  • And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
  • For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
  • Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God."

Agape love, charity, compassion, not as the world defines these things, but God. For we love not in smooth words, neither in waging our tongue about niceties, but in deed and in truth.
 
 
Quote
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You don't have to point out homosexuality as the sin of the end times, there are lots of sins.
<<<

And we point them out because the Bible points them out, and we are Witnesses!  I have articles on Gamblers, Divorce, Dispensationals, False Christians, Miracles, Lying, people who Tattoo and Body Pierce, people using God's name in vain, etc., etc. And homosexuality is the only sin where consistently there is this vain outcry that we are unloving haters and singling this sin out against these persecuted folks. When did witnessing against sin become hateful? ..in our day! If someone is swimming in a shark infested stretch of water, and I warn him of the dangers, is that being hateful, judgmental, dictatorial and harsh, or is that grace? Selah! Well, it is the same with warning people that God's word declares that the broad road leads to hell and damnation. If we are going to preach the way of righteousness and the gospel of salvation, then one needs to know what is the way of righteousnesss, and exactly what they are being saved from. That is speaking the truth in love, or rather, speaking in the love of truth. And seasoning our speech with salt (Colossians 4:6) is never contradictory to the love of truth. No one becomes graceless by loving God's word and speaking the truth. Indeed, it is the graceless obstinate non-acceptance of truth that is the enemy of love.

Galatians 4:16
  • "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

Uh, apparently, Yes! Indeed, all too often we have seen that is the case with professing Christians. Not because the truth wasn't spoken in love, but because one didn't love the truth that was spoken. It was an offense to him/her, which has nothing to do with our love. When we preach the truth and people are offended by it, have we then spoken without love and become "harsh and graceless," or is it that the hearers pride keeps them from receiving the word in the Spirit of love? The world today is confused, babbled, all turned around where instead of the Christians blaming the unbeliever for his stubborn or obstinate heart that resists truth, they blame the preacher for telling the truth too honestly or frankly. As if the truth has to be managed, massaged and molded to fit the personality of the hearer. The real truth is, without a contrite heart and broken spirit, given by Christ, we can preach all year long as wuierly as a mouse and never reach the soul we are witnessing to. While if God has broken one's spirit, a word spoken most harshly will be the instant catalyst for change. For pride commeth before a fall, not before revelation.

Psalms 34:18
  • "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
Psalms 51:17
  • "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

Christ warned of Hell 11 times in His sermons. If He had come in our day, would  professing Christians suggest that He was a "harsh and graceless" preacher. Most certainly, using the criteria they use today. Can you imagine the flack paul would take for saying Homosexuals would not get into heaven/ But the fact is, when someone is lost in sin and the faithful witness attempts to show him the doctrinal or moral errors, that is not judging unrighteously or being legalistic or unloving, that is the grace of preaaching the truth in love. A Grace that is sorely missing in our day.


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Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Chicago Bear

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2010, 07:17:12 PM »
Maurice,
  Your posts all seem to speak for themselves,

Tony,
 Thank you. There is no way that Christians should be defending homosexuals in any way or in any sense. NEVER! That is not the job of the Church, that is confusion. Yes, we love our enemies, we know that we are all sinners, we preach the truth to them, but we do not ever lay pen to defend them or their so called rights. It has nothing whatsoever to do with grace or love.

Did Christ defend the harlots, or did he tell them to go and sin no more? Can you imagine John the Baptist saying that we have to be fair with those who take another man's wife, because they are in love, we can't judge and they have rights too? What about Stephen, can we imagine him defending murderers saying their sin is just like any other sin, so we shouldn't be too hard on them or single them out? Can you envision the Apostle Paul saying, we should all stop picking on the sin of homosexuality because these are people too and that's not love and mercy?  I don't know about you, but I cannot in my wildest dreams envision any of that. Because they wouldn't do that. But this is what we have Christians doing today, and then becoming angry when someone calls them out on it.

We have to face facts. The Church today is sick. And it isn't getting any better with time. It has little direction, and the little it has is the wrong direction. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Church right now. Pun Intended.

 Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Is it all happening again? Is the wisdom of the wise failing as Christians remove their heart farther from God and closer to the world?

Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

iGreg

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2010, 07:35:06 PM »
"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
[1 Peter 2:8 - KJV]

Indeed, the Bible (the Word of God) is offensive to this world.  

Which is why we must beg God for His mercy. :-[

"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner."
[Luke 18:13 - KJV]

Big Ben

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2010, 08:45:45 PM »
Hey Guys and Gals,

  I've been reading this forum and this thread for the last few days and finally had to register so I could add my two cents. I can tell you that it is a fact that the acceptance of homosexuality is a sign of a morally rotting society and that our civilization is collapsing. Which is a sign of the end.

Luke 17:28-30
"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
 
We can rightfully infer that homosexuality is a sign of the times based on Jesus’ reference to Sodom in the Gospel of Luke. Rampant homosexuality is a clear unmistakable sign of a culture that is in such decay and degeneration, that it will soon fail to exist. How anyone (christian) could deny this is astounding to me. Because we should know better about this than anyone. But sometimes it seems we know less.

 Job 38:2
  "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Everybody? It is sad to see so many Christian apologists for the "homosexual community" attempting to harmonize their feelings and agenda of "live and let live" with the written word. The sins of homosexuality, and worse, Homosexual rapists, depicted in the passages of Genesis are not only illustrative that these men of Sodom became so depraved that they forsook the natural desire for women, but also that "this all pervasive situation" was irredeemable. Clearly, God is using Homosexuality as a sign that this unnatural corruption of His order had gotten that bad, that judgment was imminent. Don't we learn from history?

bloodstone

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 01:27:57 AM »
To all doubters I'm sure are out there.

Here's an article that might be of benefit for you to read. It is not a coincidence that homosexuality has become so all pervasive.


As In the Days of Lot
by Earl L. Henn (1934-1997)
(c) 1997

Jesus Christ gave many "indicator markings" to help us to determine when His second coming is near. One of these is mentioned in Luke 17:28-30:

Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Jesus shows us that an indicator of His imminent return is that the society around us will be similar to that of Sodom when Lot lived there nearly four thousand years ago. People will be going about their everyday lives seemingly unconcerned about the egregious evils in society, unaware that their lifestyles are abominable in the eyes of God. Thinking their ways of life are "normal," they will not expect the calamitous events that will befall them.

It is axiomatic that a dominant characteristic of Sodom's culture was rampant homosexuality. English has borrowed the words sodomy and sodomite to describe homosexuality and those who practice it. When angels came to Lot in the form of human men to inform him that God would overthrow the city, the men of Sodom came to Lot's door, demanding that the visitors come out and have a homosexual relationship with them (Genesis 19:1-5). The angels struck these Sodomites with blindness to drive them away (verse 11).

Most people would look upon such behavior as unthinkable. However, the men of Sodom apparently regarded it as "normal"; they did not view it as evil at all! Today, a similar attitude is slowly and insidiously beginning to work its way into our society. Increasingly, homosexuality is considered to be an ordinary lifestyle. Instead of being viewed as a horrible perversion, homosexuality is more and more being regarded as an "orientation" just as left-handedness is an orientation, for example. As usual, the Western world, composed primarily of the nations that have descended from Israel, is leading the way in this radical change in attitude.

Normal? Neutral?

An article appearing in the January 6-12, 1996, edition of The Economist entitled "It's Normal to be Queer" describes the radical changes in attitude toward homosexuals that have occurred worldwide over the last thirty years. As often happens, the changes have occurred gradually, one step at a time. First, many societies decriminalized homosexuality, and people slowly stopped considering it an illness or perversion. This led many to abandon the traditional view that homosexuality is shameful, opening the door to the idea that gays and lesbians are simply a cultural minority—like a racial or ethnic minority. Finally, some cultures are beginning to regard homosexuality as a normal but different lifestyle—simply an "orientation."

In fact, some countries have begun to look upon homosexuality as a harmless, neutral trait that a small percentage of people are born with—like having blue eyes or red hair. As such, it is seen as a characteristic that the individual did not choose and cannot change. These attitudes have led many to accept the homosexual lifestyle as a distinct but, at the same time, normal, ordinary and harmless condition. The article in The Economist describes how people just seem to accept this:

So emerges that rare but proliferating species: the young woman of 20 who realises she is a lesbian but, after a period of adjustment, shrugs her shoulders, informs her family, and plans to get on with an otherwise mundane life. (p. 69)

There are, of course, exceptions to this attitude. Many countries of the Middle East where Islam is the dominant religion still treat homosexuals very harshly. Throughout most of Africa, homosexuality is rarely discussed. Even in the Western world, many homosexuals still have not "come out of the closet." Nevertheless, the changing attitude is unmistakable and is growing in most areas of the world.

Last year the first gay page appeared in a mainstream newspaper in Turkey; an openly homosexual Pakistani poet published what may be the first book of gay verse in Urdu; and Latin America's first gay resort opened in Brazil. In 1995 activists demanded marriage rights in Austria, Brazil, the Czech Republic and New Zealand. Estonia's all-lesbian group started in 1990, Hong Kong's in 1994 (followed by another last year), and Brazil has at least seven. Mexico's homosexual groups number more than a dozen; South Africa's, more than 50. . . . In short, homosexuals are emerging from the closet. And, more interesting still, they are doing it in more or less the whole world at once. (ibid.)

Reasons for Its Acceptance

There are numerous reasons for this radical change in attitudes toward homosexuals. Surprisingly, one reason is directly related to the spread of AIDS: The rising concern around the world about the spread of this deadly disease and efforts to control it forced governments to deal directly with homosexuals. Before long, the governments developed a grudging relationship with predominantly homosexual organizations. This interaction with these organizations legitimatized them in the eyes of many people, leading to the development of casual attitudes toward a lifestyle that would otherwise be abhorrent to the majority.

Economics also plays a role. The world in general is becoming more wealthy, and nations that used to be mired in grinding poverty now have citizens who travel and communicate with acquaintances around the world and have degrees from Western educational institutions. This results in adoption of worldly, cosmopolitan attitudes toward life. Western attitudes toward such things as homosexuality have spread swiftly around the globe.

The emergence of democratic forms of government in many nations also contributes to a softening of attitudes toward homosexuality. Under the Franco regime in Spain, homosexuality was a crime. Now that Spain has a democratic government, however, homosexuality has been decriminalized, and about three dozen homosexual groups now operate there. A similar phenomenon is occurring in Eastern Europe where numerous nations have thrown off Soviet communism and adopted more democratic institutions. Since the elimination of apartheid in South Africa, the new government's constitution specifically prohibits discrimination against homosexuals.

The Internet has also assisted in spreading more tolerant attitudes toward gays. Homosexuals used to be limited in the number of other homosexuals with whom they could communicate. Now that has all changed. Numerous gay bulletin boards and electronic addresses on the World Wide Web are specifically designed to aid homosexuals in communicating with one another.

An example of how this contributes to the strength of the gay movement was demonstrated when gay protesters hounded Robert Mugabe, the President of Zimbabwe, on numerous state visits. Last August, President Mugabe stated that homosexuals did not have any rights at all. He threatened homosexuals with arrest and called them "sub-animal." Infuriated, homosexuals around the world kept tabs on Mr. Mugabe's itinerary and ensured that other gays around the world were notified about his state visits. In South Africa in August, New Zealand in November and Holland in December, protesters met him, shouting, "Two, four, six, eight, is Mugabe really straight?"

Gay Marriages

Of all the items on the gay agenda, none is more important than homosexual marriage. Traditionally, marriage is regarded as a mark of stability and normalcy. State-sanctioned marriage does more than legally bind two people together. It confers upon partners unique rights of inheritance, the sharing of economic and medical benefits, and the guardianship and care of one another. Probably no other single "gain" could confer upon gays the attributes of "normalcy" than the right to a civil ceremony legally binding together two people of the same sex in a marriage union. Those behind the gay-rights movement are pressing hard to achieve this.

There is no question that marriage rights for gays are on the horizon; it is only a matter of time. Already, Denmark, Norway and Sweden permit homosexual partners to register with the state and claim some of the prerogatives of marriage. Similar trends are developing in Holland, France and Belgium. In the United States, the state of Hawaii may legalize homosexual marriage based on the outcome of a recent court case.

Andrew Sullivan recently wrote a book entitled Virtually Normal: An Argument About Homosexuality. A review, also published in The Economist, clearly outlines the author's conclusions:

The core conclusion of the book is simple enough. All discrimination against homosexuals by the state should end: meaning in particular that open homosexuals should be allowed into the armed forces, and that they should be allowed a civil ceremony of marriage. Mr. Sullivan reasons that when homosexuals are revealed as deeply traditional, patriotic and indeed conservative, there is no reason why society should not embrace them as different but valued parts of the whole. Homosexuals (being largely free of the distraction of children, which fetter heterosexuals) can become the movers and shakers, the volunteers, the inspiring teachers: as, indeed, many are already. (ibid., p. 71. Emphasis ours.)

Here we see an avowed homosexual telling us that, once the state eliminates all discrimination against gays, and once they obtain the right to marry openly and bear arms, they can then become the leaders and molders of society! Clearly, this is the direction this world is headed.

God's View

Many would undoubtedly applaud this push to bring homosexuals out of the closet and allow them to practice their lifestyle openly with the same rights as "straight" people. Many would argue that this is an "enlightened" and "progressive" movement that all decent human beings should advocate. But what does God say about this? How does He see and regard homosexuality? Does God advocate gay rights?

God sees things quite differently than most people in this world. He clearly states that homosexuality is wrong (Leviticus 18:22); it is an abomination of which people must repent! In no uncertain terms, He decrees that homosexuals will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God (I Corinthians 6:9).

Many thousands of years ago, God knew that this type of movement would occur in the end time among His people, the modern-day descendants of Israel. Through the prophet Isaiah, God thunders a warning to His people today, calling them by a name that unmistakably brands them with the sin of homosexuality: "Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah" (Isaiah 1:10). God prophesies as to where this open acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle would lead:

For Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen, because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of His glory. The look on their countenance witnesses against them, and they declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves. (Isaiah 3:8-9)

God reveals that when His people accept the attitude that homosexuality is "normal," they have begun to tread the path that will ultimately lead to their destruction.

As we see the same conditions that existed "in the days of Lot" developing today, we can take comfort that the glorious second coming of Jesus Christ is drawing near. When He comes, He will make the Spirit of God available to all (Joel 2:28-32), and homosexuals will be taught that they can repent and change. Jesus is described "like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver" (Malachi 3:2-3). He will cleanse the earth from all unrighteousness and perversion, and show all people how to live the way that leads to peace, happiness and joy. Then—and only then—will the homosexual lifestyle be eradicated from the earth forever.


bloodstone

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2010, 01:51:08 AM »
So of course, when we bring the word "faithfully" it will be very critical, disapproving, nitpicking, judgmental, unsympathetic, fault-finding and censorious. It say, the other guy's not responsible, YOU ARE! No scapegoat! No politically correct answers so no one to blame for their sins. Truth or consequences. Of course people will be offended. But the real sad part is that the Christians today want to re-temper the word to make it lukewarm instead of hot and cold, so that it is "more comfortable" and doesn't offend anyone. Least of all homosexuals -- this is euphemistically called ..Love!


          Speaking the truth in Love

  If Only!



Davis

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2010, 03:35:01 AM »


Has anyone heard that Homosexuality has been medically shown to be a sign of mental illness? I've been hearing this a lot lately. What do you think? Because if it is a sign of some mental disorder, then shouldn't they be classified like other sick individuals, not as criminals?


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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2010, 08:25:26 AM »
I have tried to understand this thread as well as I can. These topics are touchy and it is probably foolish for me to enter the fray but maybe I have some thing to further the discussion. I think its safe to say the question "Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?" mostly receives a yes on this forum. But what is happening is an elaboration from 'yes' to the degree of this sins proliferation into society secularly and religiously. It is in this consequent elaboration that it would appear some believe expose deeper truths about individuals stance on homosexuality and hence off the subject discourse. Shouldn't we have an objective reference and not our recent memories of "the good old days" when considering it as an end time sign? We all agree society is embracing it but is it as much as in Sodom or "the good old days"?  We all  agree homosexuality is rampant but is it as rampant as in Sodom or "the good old days"? Without this discourse (scripturally rendered) this self-righteous herring of what is "proper righteous intolerance" towards homosexuality will continue without any knowledge in the end time sign of homosexuality. Now some of you will puff up the chest and defend your ill guided direction to the end, but i have to wonder if this is because you have become a law unto yourself? SELAH! If homosexuality is a sign according to scripture then how is it? For we have always had homosexuals.


  I agree Homosexuality is a grievous sin against God.  Damning to the souls of men and telling of a mans condition before God on many levels. A fearful place to be if you ask me. I believe, as an earlier post indicated, the unwillingness of practicing homosexuals to hide it is telling about Gods judgement toward a man. But when the discussion becomes Christ is near and justifies this with homosexualities societal embrace as the indicator for such a claim I believe this requires an objective starting point. I believe the degree of Sodom's depravity realized on all levels is a great objective starting point regarding homosexuality. Can we say Sodom was 10 homosexuals to every 100 hetro or 50, 60, 70 to to every 100 hetro.  In other words How bad did it get in Sodom's day, in numbers partaking of the sin, in the degree of passion for the sin, in pride for the sin, in acceptance of the sin societally? And must it get that bad today? Or is the mere openness of the sin today with its relative expression enough to warrant the preaching of Christ eminent return? I do believe we should tread cautiously here and by doing so we in know way are coddling homosexuality, but merely recognizing these truths are not simple. 

In Christ,
Dave


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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2010, 04:16:18 PM »
I have tried to understand this thread as well as I can.

 Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

It is a absolute given that all are not going to understand, and in fact many be offended by it. We've read the posts, I expect nothing less. Understanding is a gift of God, not something that anyone automatically receives by reading text. You should know that. For example, some Christians think that free will is a fact of scripture, and they "also" have tried to understand the contrary view as well as they can. Does the fact that they can't understand make Predestination baseless? Understanding is of God, not of someone's acceptance of scripture, not by a book or by someone merely reading this thread. I'm sure the scribes and Pharisees didn't understand either. But that does not mean what was spoken to them wasn't true.

 Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

So, understanding doesn't come from me or you, but from God. By the spirit of truth, when we study the word, what is true is revealed and what is not is revealed.


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If homosexuality is a sign according to scripture then how is it? For we have always had homosexuals.

 This question has already been answered, and more than once. So either you are predisposed not to hear the answer, or you reject the answer as accurate. Either way, to one truly objective, the question has been answered. The fact that you ask the question again "as if" it has not been answered, shows either you haven't read the thread, or you just don't like the answer.

My view is that it has already been written that only the elect will see the signs, which is the degeneration of the world and the Church. So I don't expect that everyone that are calling themselves Christian to even know what a sign is. Therefore, it is a given that protests by the Church against rampant homosexuality as a sign would arise. But this moral degeneration always precedes God's judgment. In the days of Noah, in the days of Lot, and in the last days. My guess is that you have not had your eyes open to be sensitive to God's intolerance of man falling into such degradation.

 Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When God gives up man, you can be sure judgment is sure to follow. That is the point that not all can understand.


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  I agree Homosexuality is a grievous sin against God.

Not the point. You and others want to make it the point, that sin is sin, but it is far from the point here. The point Christians are asking is if this worldwide proliferation and steady increase shows a moral bankruptcy, a sign of cultural and Church degeneration, the upsetting of the natural order of things, and thus the sign of the end. According to my understanding of scripture, the answer is yes. But talk about some being a law unto themselves, many Christians (including yourself) seem to delight in being offended by truth and ignoring the obvious for your own higher purposes.


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But what is happening is an elaboration from 'yes' to the degree of this sins proliferation into society secularly and religiously.

Because that is the point. In the world you shall have tribulation. That tribulation is with believers always. But there also comes a time of great tribulation that has not been since the beginning. Well now, protest if you like, but that is different. And that is a SIGN! So again I say to you, in your zeal, you have missed the whole point, which is the degree of this proliferation of homosexuality, and the degree of the moral degeneration in the Church to turn a blind eye.


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We all agree society is embracing it but is it as much as in Sodom or "the good old days"?

The good ole days? They must be in your head.

As for Sodom, Sodom is an example, a sign, a token. An example which many like yourself have apparently missed. But one which others see, and understand that this is a sign. What you are asking is like asking if the sins of Noah's day were as great as in Sodom. as usual, you miss the point. Which is the social and moral degeneration and forsaking the natural order of things.


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Without this discourse (scripturally rendered) this self-righteous herring of what is "proper righteous intolerance" towards homosexuality will continue without any knowledge in the end time sign of homosexuality.

Proper righteous intolerance of Homosexuality? What improper intolerance have you heard here? Quote it for me. Seriously, I would like you to point out the post where there is some improper intolerance of Homosexuality. If you cannot do that, then you are just talking like a wind without direction. Just moving air around.


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Now some of you will puff up the chest and defend your ill guided direction to the end,

 Talk about Puffed up!!!!

  Lu 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself:

Oh my, we've offended you. Eh, I'm sure you will defend your ill guided direction to the end.


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If homosexuality is a sign according to scripture then how is it? For we have always had homosexuals.

Round and round and round we go again. If tribulation is a sign of the end, then how is it? We have always had tribulation.

  Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

But

 Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do you understand now? No, probably not because the point has been made before.  I'm sure some will puff up the chest and defend their ill guided direction to the end   ;)


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  I agree Homosexuality is a grievous sin against God.  Damning to the souls of men and telling of a mans condition before God on many levels. A fearful place to be if you ask me. I believe, as an earlier post indicated, the unwillingness of practicing homosexuals to hide it is telling about Gods judgement toward a man. But when the discussion becomes Christ is near and justifies this with homosexualities societal embrace as the indicator for such a claim I believe this requires an objective starting point.

That leaves you out, as you are obviously not objective. If you were, you would have read that we answered the question.


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Or is the mere openness of the sin today with its relative expression enough to warrant the preaching of Christ eminent return? I do believe we should tread cautiously here and by doing so we in know way are coddling homosexuality, but merely recognizing these truths are not simple. 

In Christ,
Dave

Or we can listen to the voices in our head declaring, "there is no abomination, ye shall have Peace, don't worry."  Which is the voice of Modernism and 2010 Christianity. A voice of reason, or of resistance?  You said it, "recognizing these truths are not simple." I agree, but you make it seem like they are. These truths are spiritually discerned, and neither will all see them and many shall be offended at them.  As apparently, some here are.


Big Ben

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2010, 08:00:07 PM »
 I agree Homosexuality is a grievous sin against God.  But when the discussion becomes Christ is near and justifies this with homosexualities societal embrace as the indicator for such a claim I believe this requires an objective starting point.

A quote from my previous post.

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Rampant homosexuality is a clear unmistakable sign of a culture that is in such decay and degeneration, that it will soon fail to exist. How anyone (christian) could deny this is astounding to me. Because we should know better about this than anyone. But sometimes it seems we know less.

 Job 38:2
  "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Everybody? It is sad to see so many Christian apologists for the "homosexual community" attempting to harmonize their feelings and agenda of "live and let live" with the written word. The sins of homosexuality, and worse, Homosexual rapists, depicted in the passages of Genesis are not only illustrative that these men of Sodom became so depraved that they forsook the natural desire for women, but also that "this all pervasive situation" was irredeemable. Clearly, God is using Homosexuality as a sign that this unnatural corruption of His order had gotten that bad, that judgment was imminent. Don't we learn from history?

Words without knowledge my friends.


Gimplet

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2010, 08:30:24 PM »
 Well,  Reformer
Where does one begin. Not sure how to handle the apparent offense I caused. I will say this -  My intent was purely to provoke love and good works. To challenge Study unafraid of asking seemingly faithless questions. It would appear, that you either tout the line or your suspect in here. Its a shame. You definitely got to have thick skin to play in here. I do find it curious as to how an open ended charge landed so hard in your lap......

First off the arguments were not what I was trying to understand, these I thought were pretty clear. I was attempting to discern the spirit of the thread in order to wade into the fray to prick a thought or two. What I gathered is what lead to my post attempting to further the discussion beyond subjective personal opinions of how bad society has decayed because homosexuality is so embraced, to what i believe is possibly a better tenable position based on an objective scriptural barometer (Sodom), if you will.  I don't want people telling me how bad it is because they remember when they could leave there keys in the car, or leave the front door unlocked, or gays were less proud of it. I want to gauge against the God given barometer of Sodom. Are we to the point of being Sodom? That's my question, Nothing more, nothing less.

Let me put my position out there. The current corporate church is desolate. It has embraced the man of lawlessness, truth is few and far between. Will worship pervades and itchy ears are bountiful.  I believe I have Spirit cleared eyes to see this. I am just was asking- IN FAITH - has the degradation of secular society reached the point of Sodom or does it even need to? No zeal just curiosity.

Reformer

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2010, 01:26:00 AM »
Well,  Reformer
Where does one begin. Not sure how to handle the apparent offense I caused.

Clearly, by your own words in your own message, you are the party offended by what is being said here. Unfortunately, you brought no scriptural argument to the table, nor proof of anything you theorize, only innuendo and rhetoric. I think we have come to expect that around here. Although I would have hoped for a biblical argument this time old friend. Particularly on how the rampant proliferation of homosexuality cannot be a sign. But as expected, I didn't expect it.


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I will say this -  My intent was purely to provoke love and good works.

Well, you haven't changed.


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To challenge Study unafraid of asking seemingly faithless questions.

Faithless questions. How clever.


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It would appear, that you either tout the line or your suspect in here. Its a shame.

you're.

There are those I suspect, and then there are those I know. You, I know.


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You definitely got to have thick skin to play in here.

That's just it. You're still playing, and we're not. I'm not participating in any 1-ups-manship with you. The topic is homosexuality as a sign of the end times. If you have nothing biblical to add, then what I have nothing to say. I'm not playing games? Just tell me biblically how you believe it is a sign, or biblically how you believe it is not a sign. Other than that, I have no wish to converse with you in this thread.


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I do find it curious as to how an open ended charge landed so hard in your lap......

I find it curious how you landed in this forum. Obviously it is not to add anything biblical to the discussion. Proof by assertion doesn't work here.


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First off the arguments were not what I was trying to understand, these I thought were pretty clear.

But that's the whole point of the thread. the arguments for and against. But as I say, you have nothing to add to this argument.


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I was attempting to discern the spirit of the thread in order to wade into the fray to prick a thought or two.

Ahhhhh. The "spirit" of the thread.

 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The spirit of the thread is the spirit of truth. At least it was.


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What I gathered is what lead to my post attempting to further the discussion beyond subjective personal opinions of how bad society has decayed because homosexuality is so embraced,

What you call our subjective personal opinions, we call facts of degeneration in the world that only a blind man can't see. I know you are offended by that, but like it or not, the world is hell bent on destruction. So we are at odds before we even start.


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to what i believe is possibly a better tenable position based on an objective scriptural barometer (Sodom), if you will.

Sodom? Using your criteria, we couldn't even accept Sodom as a barometer, because for all we know, those few men who wanted to assault the angels at Lot's door, could have been the only homosexuals there. I thank God that everyone doesn't think like you, spouting subjectives that are hidden by so-called objective scriptural barometers. We're dealing with a spirit of truth here, and you're dealing in wrtiten numbers of homosexuals? How could you? You can't!


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I don't want people telling me how bad it is because they remember when they could leave there keys in the car, or leave the front door unlocked, or gays were less proud of it.

And you have evidenced that what I said is true. Car keys, front doors, nostalgia, has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. The fact that you inject them reveals your true purpose here is to distract, not enlighten add information.


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Let me put my position out there. The current corporate church is desolate. It has embraced the man of lawlessness, truth is few and far between. Will worship pervades and itchy ears are bountiful.  I believe I have Spirit cleared eyes to see this. I am just was asking- IN FAITH - has the degradation of secular society reached the point of Sodom or does it even need to?

How would you even know the numerical amount of degradation that was in Sodom, scripture doesn't tell you how many homosexuals there were. So what are you even talking about? You are spitting in the wind asking subjective questions pretending they have some bearing on this discussion. God didn't have the story of Sodom written so that we can count the homosexuals there and compare figures.  You have again missed the point of Sodom. It is written as an example of the degradation of man before the judgment of God. Don't you understand that? It is not about bean counting and comparisons, it is about the spirit and like-figures. Is the world in greater decline morally/Godly than it ever has been before? Fornicating before marriage is not only normal, it's expected and accepted, abortions are on demand, there is rampant homosexuality (no I didn't count them), there is no-fault divorce, there is the destruction of the family, immorality/iniquity abounds, the removal of everything God oriented, shall I go on? If you want to say with a straight face, these are not signs of a new low in degradation, you go ahead. That's your right. But I don't deny the truth.

 Lu 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

I'm not blind, I see. So you cannot with vain enticing words lead me to close my eyes to truth by words like objective scriptural barometers. I know what objective scriptural barometers are, I see them all around. It appears you are the one not seeing them.




 

Gimplet

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2010, 03:24:16 AM »
Reformer

I can only stand jaw dropped at the level of disdain for me you appear to have. I have been reading hear a long time, at least 5 years, have come to respect the wisdom of this site and its studies, it has been refreshing to find others who see and understand the scriptures spiritually. This has been extremely discouraging to say the least.


Gimplet
Quote
I will say this -  My intent was purely to provoke love and good works
.

Well, you haven't changed.

What did you hope to gain by this???

Gimplet
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To challenge Study unafraid of asking seemingly faithless questions.

Faithless questions. How clever.

No. Not clever. Just a reasonable description of what I believe you appear to be afraid of.

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It would appear, that you either tout the line or your suspect in here. Its a shame.
you're.

There are those I suspect, and then there are those I know. You, I know.

Have we digressed to this... No you do not know me in the least. You can't know me, I threaten you for some reason. 

Gimplet
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You definitely got to have thick skin to play in here.

Did you actually think I came to play in here or could it merely be a figure of speech meant to be taken in stride to lighten us up,  ecspecially considering how the heat from our post was was increasing, or are you that bent on my destruction you'll hyperbolize my words for you own gain.

Gimplet
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First off the arguments were not what I was trying to understand, these I thought were pretty clear.

But that's the whole point of the thread. the arguments for and against. But as I say, you have nothing to add to this argument

I know its the point thats why I make it my business to try and understand peoples arguments, what do you think, I come in here to learn the alphabet. You are so blind by your fury for me you can not even hear a single point I was trying to make, but twist me.

Example:

Gimplet
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Seriously, I would like you to point out the post where there is some improper intolerance of Homosexuality
I never even implied this in the least. I was saying that peoples post digress into accusations of ones tolerance for sin while implicitly saying they have the correct  tolerance(intolerance). Exactly as you are doing to me in regards to truth and clarity right now. We used to call it being a child.

Gimplet
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I was attempting to discern the spirit of the thread in order to wade into the fray to prick a thought or two.

Ahhhhh. The "spirit" of the thread.

 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The spirit of the thread is the spirit of truth. At least it was.

I was talking more along the lines of hospitality, patience, gentleness, meekness, kindness. Looks like I blew this one.

Reformer
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What you call our subjective personal opinions, we call facts of degeneration in the world that only a blind man can't see. I know you are offended by that, but like it or not, the world is hell bent on destruction. So we are at odds before we even start.

Not offended by that at all merely believing judgment begins at the house of God, as one can clearly tell is at work, and will increase to a degree of Sodom in the world, which can be understood despite what you claim. I'd rather know how close the world is to Sodom than how far it is from Christ, for it has never been nor ever will be near Him. Yes we are at odds, but not by my intentions.

Reformer
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Sodom? Using your criteria, we couldn't even accept Sodom as a barometer, because for all we know, those few men who wanted to assault the angels at Lot's door, could have been the only homosexuals there. I thank God that everyone doesn't think like you, spouting subjectives that are hidden by so-called objective scriptural barometers. We're dealing with a spirit of truth here, and you're dealing in wrtiten numbers of homosexuals? How could you? You can't!
This is exactly my point with you and your blind fury. I gave not understanding of Sodom but merely proposed questions wondering if there was any validity to this approach, yet somehow you accuse me of laying down truths. Can we ask questions in here??????!!!!!!!! Or are we so hell bent on destroying peoples spirits.  HOW COULD I? I DIDN'T!!! YOU DID TO ME!!!!

Gimplet
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I don't want people telling me how bad it is because they remember when they could leave there keys in the car, or leave the front door unlocked, or gays were less proud of it.

And you have evidenced that what I said is true. Car keys, front doors, nostalgia, has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. The fact that you inject them reveals your true purpose here is to distract, not enlighten add information.
Please enlighten me as to what is wrong with this position of mine.......

I understand Sodom as an example of the degredation of man prior to judgment, thats plain. Which is why I want Sodom to be my point of reference.

Reformer
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I'm not blind, I see. So you cannot with vain enticing words lead me to close my eyes to truth by words like objective scriptural barometers. I know what objective scriptural barometers are, I see them all around. It appears you are the one not seeing them.

God forbid, this is pathetic pious blather.

I do take offence at being mis-characterized and maligned and believe it to be a right indignation to have. 

Lesson learned: Even religious knowledge can be void of the Spirit!

Good day, and by the way we are not Old Friends.
,Dave

P.S. : Homosexuality is a sign of the end times


Theo

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Re: Is Homosexuality a Sign of the End Times?
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2010, 11:33:08 AM »

I understand Sodom as an example of the degredation of man prior to judgment, thats plain. Which is why I want Sodom to be my point of reference.


unbelievable.
  People like you and a couple others start out making everyone think they are against the idea of Sodom being sign and example of degradation, then when someone calls you on it, you blather on about unrelated things, cry about not being loved, and procede to declare how you believed this all along and have been mischaracterized. Are you kidding me?

First Judy, then Jonah, now you.  Do you guys need a hug or something? I don't get it. I think I'm an objective observer, and I haven't seen either of you add one thing to this discussion except your pride and hurt feelings. Give it a rest.

And don't give me that, "I was only asking a question" baloney again, because generally any honest question asked here gets an honest answer. we know what you were doing, and what you were not doing. No one is stupid here.

Now, can we get back to the discussion at hand without this tit-for-tat immature "I need a hug" mentality. Thanks!


[quoute]
Lesson learned: Even religious knowledge can be void of the Spirit!
[/quote]


  Proverbs 16:18-19
 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud."

 Lesson: take heed to God's word, not your own.


 


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