[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Are Roman Catholics Saved?  (Read 12638 times)

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 939
  • Gender: Female
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2012, 07:07:31 PM »
This topic seems to have escalated, spilled over into other areas, and brought people who rarely have anything to offer out of the woodwork, including those who see this as an opportunity to promote their anti- women agenda.  So I’m jumping back to the fray to address some things that have been said after I indicated that I was done.

As my record  bears me out, I have spoken against divorce, lenient modern-day child-rearing practices, homosexuality, women pastors , etc. and as most of you who been here for awhile know, I have spoken against catholic doctrine and leadership (false prophets who come with another gospel) many times.   Also, without prior objections, I (and others) have previously taken the stance that we should judge behavior, doctrine and those who bring them, but when it comes to condemning the soul of another, that goes beyong what we are instructed to do.  Rather we should allow God's Word -- which is a doubled-edged sword, either condemn or save.

Moreover, in this thread I have asked to be shown how I may have misinterpreted the passages upon which my views are based.  Saying those Scriptures don’t apply without addressing them straight-on and without making any attempt at reconciliation is not an answer.

Secondly,  some seem to be equating the ‘corporate’ (perhaps a poor choice of word on my part) church,  with God’s true church.  Many here have long spoken of the “corporate” church versus the true church comprised of only the elect.  Some have referred to it as the “visible” versus the indivisible church, or the “external” church versus  the internal church, or the earthly representation of the church versus the spiritual church.  I have always used the term “corporate” church to include all denominations that have arisen out of the original 7 churches of the NT.   We know from accounts in Rev 1-2 that all but two of the seven were already in trouble with God.  We also know that most if not all earthly representations of the NT church will fall by the wayside before Christ returns -- just as OT national Israel did.

So I was taken aback by the outrage that arose – as though the “corporate” church conveyed God’s true church.  I did not realize that for some the “corporate” church only included traditional protestant denominations, and confess my ignorance of this.  Even if I were to assume the same definition, that would still include a good many protestant churches who believe in free will and in works doctrines (as the catholic church does).   The bottom line is that this division by denomination is in itself unbiblical regardless of how one defines it, because in God’s eyes there is only one church against whom the gates of hell shall not prevail, and that is the true/spiritual church comprised of the elect.

1 Corinthains:
12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.


When God returns to separate the wheat from the tares (which He said he would do, and we are not to do),  it would not surprise me if a great many will have had no association with any church at all, given the hypocrisy and self-righteous pride regardless of denomination.

The term  “believer”  also seems to mean different things to different people.  I have always made a distinction between “believer” and “true believer”.   Some say, if you’re a catholic, you can’t be a believer, much less a true believer.  Furthermore, if they are saved, they would no longer associate themselves with the catholic church.  I tend to agree with the latter, but even so, we then get into games of probability and time-limits, then a progression occurs into making condemning statements against all individuals within any given denomination.

Perhaps one cannot realistically view an individual separate  from the denomination he/she is associated with.  As Tony has said  “by definition”  (meaning catholic doctrines I assume?)  the doctrines of the church that one is associated with,  defines the person, and therefore all catholic are unsaved.   I understand the logic, yet the miracle of salvation occurs at the individual level, and each and everyone is dead in trespasses and sin (regardless of denomination or lack thereof) before they are saved.    I remind you good Methodist/ Lutherans/ Presbyterians/Baptist (me before I left over 10 years ago), that it’s a miracle that any one of us is saved, and that  the parable of the “rich man” and “publican” can be applied to anyone, even a lowly catholic who despite all, still has the Scriptures.

Mark 10:25
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26  And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luke 18
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


My stance has nothing to do with sentimentality.  I have always said and believe that when it comes to making judgments concerns the soul condition of another, that that’s between that person and God alone,  based on Scriptures previously sited by me and a few others, which have yet to be addressed head-on and reconciled.
I recognize I could be wrong, but until/unless those passages are addressed, I cannot in good conscience say otherwise.

I value this web site and its forums because of its uncompromising adherence to sound  biblical doctrine.  But when it comes to how we treat each other when a different viewpoint is given with supporting Scriptures, this forum has much to be desired.   When emotional ranting, ridicule and dishonest representation of what another has said is attributed to godly “zeal”,  then something is wrong.  When opportunistic anti-women sentiments are encouraged, something is wrong.

True Christianity extends beyond doctrine which could be limited to a few core/basic principles and beliefs concerning Christ.   Doctrine is important, and is where this site excels above others,  but according to the Bible the way we treat each other is just as important . Kindness  is not equated to weakness nor sentimentality, and can be extended without expense to sound doctrine.

1 Corintians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Reformer

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1280
  • Reformed and Evangelical
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #121 on: April 15, 2012, 07:32:00 PM »
Not to "Pick" on Judy, but here we're left in confusion again, left to imagine, guess and speculate just who it is who has made these alleged "ANTI-WOMEN" comments. Can't be me, because I haven't made any, so just who are you talking about "O secret one?" Typical. Talk, without ever saying anything specific, just a deliberate Vagueness where you know no more now, than you knew before she made the post.

Stop with the smoke and mirrors Judy, speak up and be honest for a change. Just who made these anti-women comments, and more to the point, what were they specifically.

And I say again with all due respect, if you can't answer a simple question honestly, then really, what is the purpose of this post?


Wayne

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #122 on: April 15, 2012, 08:40:47 PM »
Russell Lloyd voiced his opinion and questions on changing values with relationship to scripture, which I don't think was anti Women. John posted additional comments about the differences that I don't think were anti-women either. Erik Diamond said both had made Good observance, and I don't think he was Anti-Women. Charles said women and men are different and men are ordained generally more qualified to be the leaders.  That's not anti-women. Sojourner said God is reminding us that there is to be a subordination of wife to husband, husband to Christ, and Christ to God. That's not anti-women. The rest of the comments were by women. So I have to echo Reformer in asking, just who made these anti-women comments, and more to the point, what were they specifically. And why do you think they are anti-women?

You want some cheese with that whine?

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 939
  • Gender: Female
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #123 on: April 15, 2012, 09:58:20 PM »
Not to "Pick" on Judy, but here we're left in confusion again, left to imagine, guess and speculate just who it is who has made these alleged "ANTI-WOMEN" comments. Can't be me, because I haven't made any, so just who are you talking about "O secret one?" Typical. Talk, without ever saying anything specific, just a deliberate Vagueness where you know no more now, than you knew before she made the post.

Stop with the smoke and mirrors Judy, speak up and be honest for a change. Just who made these anti-women comments, and more to the point, what were they specifically.

And I say again with all due respect, if you can't answer a simple question honestly, then really, what is the purpose of this post?

As occurred earlier, a question is posed for the first time, and even as it is being asked, you in the same breath say I have not answered it.  A very honest approach?  Not!

So I will answer the obvious.  I am specifically referring to Russell Lloyd who started the spin-off thread “Your Women Rule Over Your Men”.

You quickly latched onto this, yet still have not addressed what I been asking  -- namely that each and everyone one of the Scriptures upon which I base my viewpoint be addressed head-on.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Reformer

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1280
  • Reformed and Evangelical
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #124 on: April 15, 2012, 10:21:16 PM »
So I will answer the obvious.  I am specifically referring to Russell Lloyd who started the spin-off thread “Your Women Rule Over Your Men”.

You quickly latched onto this,
judy

Judy.
 Dear lady. YOU are the one who said you were done with this thread. Then you were the one who jumped back in claiming anti-women comments were made by some unnamed source. Not I. You! I didn't even comment on it. I simply asked, who it was that made your anti-women comment and what was the comment. Is that allowed in your world? Geez!

At least you confessed it was the newcomer Russell who so offended you. I guess that's progress. Though, as usual, you can't even list , quote or repeat the supposedly anti-women comment you accuse him of. Maybe because it doesn't exist. Or was it really anti-women only in you and Betty's mind, seeing how you can't remember what he said that was anti-woman? Oh, it's also a secret?

Was it the scriptures he listed where God said women rule over you as a negative, and are you offended by God's words? Or are you done with this thread again?


billnjune

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Gender: Male
  • Saved, By God's Grace Alone!
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #125 on: April 23, 2012, 11:37:45 AM »
This exciting video unfolds the fascinating "untold" history of the Bible, revealing critical information often overlooked in modern histories and covered up by the Catholic Church over the ages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNZ-sOzXWEk&context=C414c1b3ADvjVQa1PpcFO-J4-cs7mSAhiP_mUIfdYnt0emWupRd8k=
The only regret that I have is that I only have one life to live for my God.

Doug Johnson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #126 on: October 15, 2013, 05:44:39 AM »
This exciting video unfolds the fascinating "untold" history of the Bible, revealing critical information often overlooked in modern histories and covered up by the Catholic Church over the ages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNZ-sOzXWEk&context=C414c1b3ADvjVQa1PpcFO-J4-cs7mSAhiP_mUIfdYnt0emWupRd8k=


That was propaganda and you know it.

Bunyan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
  • Gender: Male
  • Luke 8:24
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #127 on: October 15, 2013, 08:22:16 AM »
That was propaganda and you know it.

Doug,
  How can anyone who posts the links that you post talk about a link being propaganda? The pot calling the kettle black.  So, are Roman Catholics saved? I think a better question is this: Do I believe that someone who is a committed member of the Roman Catholic Church can be a true Christian? No, I do not. I believe that the majority of Roman Catholics that I have come in contact with and talked to are not true Christians. On the other hand, I don’t believe that the majority of Protestants that I have come in contact with are true Christians either. Why do I believe this? Because simply confessing to being a Christian does not mean that one is born from above to truly embrace the ideals of Christianity.

But that doesn't change the fact that the confessions of the Roman Catholic Church are decidedly unchristian, and that pretty much means those who truly believe in it are not part of Christ's Church. More than that, we have to ask ourselves how anyone can believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved? My answer would be they can't. And that's what Roman Catholics do. They are just as bad (or worse) than the Priests, scribes and Pharisees who did that same thing. If that belief in works  couldn't save the Jews who were God's beloved covenanted people whom Christ wept over, how can it save Catholics.

I understand that liberal Christians and evangelicals won't accept that, but I don't see how anyone can believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved?
"The law says, 'do this,' and it is never done. Grace
says, 'believe in this,' and everything is already done
."
- Martin Luther

Doug Johnson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #128 on: November 23, 2014, 05:37:50 AM »
Truly saved people are not going to remain in a Roman Catholic Church anymore than they will remain in any other false Church. Did Martin Luther remain in the Church, and could he have considering their doctrines? No, he had to come out. God drew him out. Anyone who says they will remain is not reading the Bible right.

Martin Luther was a racist, Jew hating Heretic. The Catholic Church didn't want him as part of it, and his departure was the best news for the Church. Your great Luther Said the Bible could use some improvement.

"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible." ('The Facts About Luther, O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 202.)

"The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe.  I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much and has in it a great deal of heathenish foolishness." (Ibid.)

"Of very little worth is the Book of Baruch, whoever the worthy Baruch might be." (Ibid.)

"...the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical."  ('Preface to the New Testament,' ed. Dillenberger, p. 19.)

"If nonsense is spoken anywhere, this is the very place.  I pass over the fact that many have maintained, with much probability, that this epistle was not written by the apostle James, and is not worthy of the spirit of the apostle."  ('Pagan Servitude of the Church,' ed. Dillenberger, p. 352.)

Reading these words of Luther, it's hard to imagine that he is the same man who so often claimed that he looked upon the Bible "as if God Himself spoke therein."  How could he have claimed to believe in the inspired Word of God as the ultimate authority on religious matters if he placed himself in judgment of Scripture?  In doing so, he quite clearly set himself up as judge over God himself.

Believe it or not, in his hubris Luther even presumed to rank the gospels:  "John records but few of the works of Christ, but a great deal of his preaching, whereas the other three evangelists record many of His works, but few of His words.  It follows that the gospel of John is unique in loveliness, and of a truth the principal gospel, far, far superior to the other three, and St. Paul and St. Peter are far in advance of the three gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke."  ('Preface to Romans,' ed. Dillenberger, pp. 18-19.)

And he complained about the Book of Revelation: "to my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character...  Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it." (Sammtliche Werke,  63, pp. 169-170, 'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books,
1987, p. 203.)

And finally, he admitted adding the word 'alone' to Rom. 3:28 of his own volition:  "If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so:  Papist and ass are one and the same thing.  Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge.  Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom."  (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About
Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)

Here he is condemned by his own mouth.  For John, in Rev. 22: 18-19, declares anathema anyone who presumes to change even a single word of Scripture:  "I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book."  Luther, of course, didn't add or take away mere words, but entire passages and books.

Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1871
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #129 on: November 23, 2014, 08:28:06 PM »
Doug,

You copied and pasted from the source, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/truth_about_martin_luther.htm.

Which is odd place for you to find the source because the same website also teach that Catholic Church and her doctrines are false:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hail_mary_hail_satan.htm

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

john

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
  • Gender: Male
  • A man with God is always in the majority-John Knox
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #130 on: Yesterday at 12:28:37 AM »
Not a complete listing of Roman Catholic heresy ... but a starting point.



Borrowed from: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

NoMass

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 32
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 03:24:48 PM »
Doug,

You copied and pasted from the source, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/truth_about_martin_luther.htm.

Erik


Whoa!!!!!   Which begs the question, are all those things true about Martin Luther?  If so, I don't see how anyone can hold him up as a great leader of the church. He's as bad as the Pope.

Are Roman Catholics saved? No.
Are Reformed Theologians saved? No.
Are Charismatics and Pentecostals saved? No.

Christians are saved, right?



Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1871
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #132 on: Today at 01:46:23 AM »
Quote
Whoa!!!!!   Which begs the question, are all those things true about Martin Luther?  If so, I don't see how anyone can hold him up as a great leader of the church. He's as bad as the Pope.

What about Martin Luther? What about Calvin? What about Pope?

So what about these dead people?  What about YOU?  How about if we spend some time with the Bible.  It is our responsible to live our life according to God's Word, not based on public opinion about some "great" church leaders.   

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1280
  • Reformed and Evangelical
Re: Are Roman Catholics Saved?
« Reply #133 on: Today at 08:21:40 AM »
Doug,

You copied and pasted from the source, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/truth_about_martin_luther.htm.

Erik


Whoa!!!!!   Which begs the question, are all those things true about Martin Luther?



Well now you see why most of us on this forum don't hold "men" up as some great and often infallible rulers of the Church as the "most" Roman Catholics and "some" Calvinists do. They are all fallible men, which means that their doctrines and whatever they say is all subject to scrutiny of and comparison with the scriptures. I cringe when Calvinists quote Calvin or Luther when their position is challenged by scripture as much as I do when Catholics quote their catechisms. That is why this forum has as a rule that debates are argued from the scriptures rather than from what other men have wrote, authored or said. That's the difference and the Spirit of this forum as compared to others.

Quote

Are Roman Catholics saved? No.
Are Reformed Theologians saved? No.
Are Charismatics and Pentecostals saved? No.

Christians are saved, right?
[/quote

Correct. And []b]true[/b] Christians will come out of Roman Catholicism, Charismaticism and Pentecostalism as surely as they will come out of any other false religion. When, where and how they are saved is God's business. But one thing we do know, God doesn't call anyone in false religions. He calls them out of them.

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]