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Author Topic: The Growing Apostasy in the Church  (Read 20616 times)

Sportsnut

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #105 on: September 10, 2018, 04:28:01 AM »
Lu 13:34-35
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Demonstration of God's Love


George

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2018, 03:32:48 PM »
George, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
If you are going to follow the popularity of a doctrine then you can be assured that you are deceived.  Following the Bible alone is your only hope!

Bill

I'm not following popular doctrines, I'm following practical ones. There may be growing apostasy in Amillennial churches, but not in Premillennial ones.

ZeroCool

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2018, 05:07:53 PM »
I'm not following popular doctrines, I'm following practical ones. There may be growing apostasy in Amillennial churches, but not in Premillennial ones.

So what does practical doctrines mean?

Tony Warren

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #108 on: November 11, 2018, 08:50:57 AM »
>>>
I'm not following popular doctrines, I'm following practical ones.


So what does practical doctrines mean?

Zerocool,
   In my view "Practical Doctrines" has become a sort of modern day code for the application of theology guided by popular worldly philosophies that the carnal Christian can "feel" comfortable with supporting. I contrast this with "Actual Doctrines" that are plainly written in Scripture. Submitting to practical doctrines (as opposed to actual doctrines) is often demonstrated in Christians practices intended to make living life easier in this world, or making Christian doctrines more palatable to those around them. For example, teaching doctrine in a watered down way so that it is more applicable to our modern day living. This as contrasted with a strict adherence to tried and true, sound biblical teachings of faith, as once delivered to and handed down to the saints.

Jude 1:3-6
  • "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
  • For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
  • And the messengers which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This type faith is considered old fashioned or archaic and not practical for today's Christians to contend for. This type faith and practice is impractical because people will hate you for it, call you close minded and laugh you to scorn for being so gullible as to "actually" have such archaic beliefs instead of practical doctrines. Which amounts to a empty or vain profession of faith.  Lots of sound Christian doctrines are unfortunately considered impractical in our day. For example, carnal Christians may believe that it is not practical to teach God abhors Homosexuality because it will damage their image of love and they will likely be reviled, persecuted and vilified--Not only by the infidels, but also by practical professing Christians.

Ezekiel 2:67
  • "And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
  • And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious."

In my opinion, another word for "most" practical doctrines is rebellion. Such as the idea that it is not helping for Christians to teach abstinence before marriage, because it's not practical today and young people will shut you out and not consider Christ--As if God depends on our convincing to save sinners? Since when did the "hard to hear truth" become impractical and not helpful to the cause of Christ?  When diod it become impractical to teach the doctrine that Christians are not to resist evil, but turn the other cheek? When professing Christians started saying it was stupid and people will take advantage of you. This is what I see as the "Practical Doctrines" philosophy. Yes, many will couch in other euphemisms, but it is still contrasted with the actual doctrines of the Scriptures, which Christ handed down to us. Practical has become a euphemism for "You don't have to hold fast to the doctrines of old, because they are not practical / applicable anymore." many ministers today will teach doctrines in a way that is intended to make them more comfortable, palatable, useful and applicable in today's immoral society. But be not deceived, practical doctrines are usually lukewarm doctrines, smoothed over doctrines, a methodology that has existed long before the phrase came into being. It's called a thousand different things but it stems from rebellious children that don't want to hear the unadulterated law of their Father. They are driven to to twist scripture to conform to the age in which we live as they are moved by fear, emotion and he flesh. Compromising the word is rebellion and it always leads to the same end--abominations and desolations.

Isaiah 30:8-14
  • "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
  • That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
  • Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
  • Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
  • Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
  • And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit."

They won't hear the law of God because to the carnal Christian, laws aren't meant as laws, they're merely guidelines, advise or suggestions. The carnal Christian is not interested in hearing anyone prophesy of "absolute" right things, they want to hear flexible things, smooth (soothing / palatable / comfortable) things where they don't have to change their rebellious ways. They don't want to hear what God says they should not do, they joy in hearing that they are correct in their personal or private judgments, and that their "feelings" are justified. They want to be told that their fear and anger is righteous. To listen to Bible passages that are contradictory to their beliefs is like torture, and anything God says that is negative to their way of thinking brings forth anger. They commune together parroting the line that Sovereign God means God does not control their destiny, and that God is on their side, that they shall always have peace, that God loves them and supports their practical doctrines. Growing apostasy takes many forms, including "practical doctrines."

Psalms 119:11
  • "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Now that is true practical doctrine, the practice or action of holding God's word dear as law rather than theoretical or a ideal. The bottom line is this, the carnal Christian are those most often offended by the law of God and hate the saving faith of true Christianity. They are at enmity with it because they look upon it as "impractical doctrine," unrealistic doctrine, inefficacious doctrine, the application of theology guided not by fear, the philosophies of men or feelings--but by the guiding light of the word.


>>>
There may be growing apostasy in Amillennial churches, but not in Premillennial ones.
<<<

Amillennial, Premillennial, Postmillennial, Dispensationalism, whatever group of people you want to list, there is apostasy in all churches that have mankind in them--some more of it than others. But I do understand that, "Denial is the most predictable of all responses."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Joe Johnson

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2019, 12:56:42 PM »
Zerocool,
   In my view "Practical Doctrines" has become a sort of modern day code for the application of theology guided by popular worldly philosophies that the carnal Christian can "feel" comfortable with supporting.

And you would be wrong. Again! Practical Christianity is the belief that God is love, not the fire throwing, Hell casting one you preach he is. He forgives our sins, which is what non-practical Christians of the Reformed variety refuse to do. Just like their fathers of the Catholic church before them.

Edward

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2019, 03:47:33 PM »
Well, the word Christian is used so freely these days. Yes it's a sad state of affairs, but there is always someone to point the finger at because the list is endless.

Hi,
I'm new to the forum but not new to the website. I thought I'd try reading some of the posts here and add my two cents. But reading this response I feel like you are telling us that to attempt to combat sin is futile. I don't believe that to be true. Isn't that the reason that there is apostasy in the church?


Quote
There's no lack of false ministries, churches and teachers to condemn if one has a mind to. Especially in this day and age where this type of thing is not even surprising anymore.

I think that though there will always be sin, there will always be a church to combat it. Don't you agree?


Quote
Likewise with something like this. If that is an offense to us, we should simply cut if off. Don't listen to it, don't go there, don't  have anything to do with it. But we certainly are not going to correct it, nor them.

Not if we stick our heads in the sand. We need to try and make the world a better place by keeping the church actively fighting evil.


Quote
"nosce te ipsum"

Please excuse my lack of interpretative skills, but what is that?


Reuben

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2019, 08:33:02 PM »
"nosce te ipsum"

Please excuse my lack of interpretative skills, but what is that?

Hello Edward and  )welcome( to the forum.

 Here's a little tip for you and everyone who sees a word posted in another language that they don't understand. Just google it. If it's a phrase, just place it in quotation marks. It always works for me. "nosce te ipsum" in English means "Know Thyself. "

As for the post, I don't think that is what Tony meant. In fact I think it is just the opposite. You have to read the whole thread.



David Knoles

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2019, 10:59:24 PM »
But reading this response I feel like you are telling us that to attempt to combat sin is futile. I don't believe that to be true. Isn't that the reason that there is apostasy in the church?

Yes. Apostasy in the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Amillennial churches. There are always churches that fall away, but the church and Israel continue on.
 

Susan

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2019, 05:43:54 AM »
Well, the word Christian is used so freely these days. Yes it's a sad state of affairs, but there is always someone to point the finger at because the list is endless.

Hi,
I'm new to the forum but not new to the website. I thought I'd try reading some of the posts here and add my two cents. But reading this response I feel like you are telling us that to attempt to combat sin is futile. I don't believe that to be true. Isn't that the reason that there is apostasy in the church?

I think what he was saying is that to attempt to make the world righteous is a fool's errand. The world will never be right, it will always remain sinful. but the apostasy in the church came about through neglect of those within it.

Margaret

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2019, 08:20:21 AM »

Do you guys think the apostasy is now, or it is coming soon?

Tony Warren

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #115 on: November 24, 2019, 04:46:11 AM »
>>>
Do you guys think the apostasy is now, or it is coming soon?
<<<

Apostasy is "definitely" in the church now.  But whether it has become fully all encapsulated in the whole church yet is debatable.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #116 on: November 24, 2019, 05:23:30 AM »
>>>
Well, the word Christian is used so freely these days. Yes it's a sad state of affairs, but there is always someone to point the finger at because the list is endless.

Hi,
I'm new to the forum but not new to the website. I thought I'd try reading some of the posts here and add my two cents. But reading this response I feel like you are telling us that to attempt to combat sin is futile.
<<<

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. We are not sent to remove sin from the world. Sin in the world is now and will ever be present in this sin-cursed world. It's inevitable. It is not the church's job to make the city, country or world sinless/righteous, despite what some theologians teach. It is the church's job to be a light shining in this world of darkness for illumination, as that is the only help for those in the world whom God has given eyes to see. We have to understand, if it was God's will that the whole world be saved, then the whole world would be saved. Let's not confuse our own desires and will with God's desire and will.

Matthew 13:11
  • "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Luke 10:21
  • "In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

That's a general principle. God knows the end from the beginning and never intended for all the world to understand and come to Him. Indeed He made it very clear that no man "can" come to Christ unless He Himself "drags/Draws" them to come. That is another stark example of the Sovereignty of God in all things. Yes, I am saying that attempting to make a Christianized world is not only in vain or futile, but it inevitably takes away from the actual work that God has given His servants to do. Namely, your efforts to preach the gospel to the world that "some" in the world might hear of the solution to sin and become saved. IF they hear and are called and chosen, they will be saved.


Quote
>>>
 I don't believe that to be true.
<<<

What part? That it isn't God's will that all the world become saved, or that it "is" our job to attempt to make the world a righteous place. To try and Christianize the world?


Quote
>>>
Isn't that the reason that there is apostasy in the church?
<<<

No, there is apostasy in the churches because the people within it don't want light, they want darkness so that their sins might be hidden. Whenever someone speaks of "the Law" or tells the truth about disobedience in the church, they are vilified, reviled, spoken evil against as unloving, judgmental or heartless. That desire for smooth things is what's causing apostasy in the church.

Isaiah 30:9-11
  • "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
  • Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."

This attitude in God's house is nothing new. People in the church are attempting to conceal light beneath a bushel, and justifying it under the guise of not being judgmental, of love and of compassion. But God is not mocked.

Matthew 5:13-16
  • "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
  • Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
  • Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
  • Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

The world is increasing in darkness because the church has gone dark where it is no longer the reflective light of the world. The body of Christ.


Quote
>>>
I think that though there will always be sin, there will always be a church to combat it. Don't you agree?
<<<

No. There "will" come a time, which may already be here, when the church is finished its witnessing and the gospel of Christ will be silenced by adversaries. That time if not here is nearly upon us.

Revelation 11:7
  • "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

The two witnesses are "symbolic" of God's faithful Church, and its death signals the fall where the man of sin (or sinful man) rules the Holy Temple of God and the church is judged. For judgment must begin at the house of God and start at his sanctuary.


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>>>
Not if we stick our heads in the sand.
<<<

The ones sticking their proverbial heads in the sand are those in the church blinding themselves to what is going on there. Those prophets saying "Peace, Peace, when there is no peace." Just like those in days of old, there is nothing new under the sun.

Jeremian 14:13-15
  • "Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
  • Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
  • Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed."

The more things change, the more they remain the same. As saith the preacher.


Quote
>>>
We need to try and make the world a better place by keeping the church actively fighting evil.
<<<

I agree we need to "try" and keep the church actively fighting evil--within its walls.  But the evil of the world will always be there and we were never instructed to attempt to remove it. God has commissioned us to seek out the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to attempt to do the impossible in seeking to make the world a righteous place. The world is irrevocably evil and it is not our home. We strangers and pilgrims here sent to call the elect out of the world into His Kingdom, not to call the world to be elect.

John 17:9-10
  • "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
  • And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

Christ knows something many Christians miss--that the world is "not" destined for righteousness, but to damnation. We are not called to "fix" the world, we are called to preach the gospel to the world that some "out of the world" might be saved. We are not called to remove evil from the world, but to witness to the elect unto salvation. In our pride and arrogance we believe that fixing the world is a possibility--but how could we, considering God's words on the matter.


Quote
>>>
"nosce te ipsum"

Please excuse my lack of interpretative skills, but what is that?
<<<

As Reuben's wise advise detailed, that is Latin for "Know Thyself." It is something that I believe we all should come to understand that we are all miserable, stinking, rotten sinners, who but for the grace of God, would be just like the rest of the world that hates Him. It's an important starting point to understanding God's Sovereignty and exactly what God did for you.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"





Tony Warren

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #117 on: November 24, 2019, 05:35:32 AM »
>>>
 In my view "Practical Doctrines" has become a sort of modern day code for the application of theology guided by popular worldly philosophies that the carnal Christian can "feel" comfortable with supporting.

And you would be wrong. Again! Practical Christianity is the belief that God is love,
<<<

That God is love is not practical Christianity, That "God is Love" is the basic teaching of the Christian faith. However, you use the term "as if" love is God. Every evil person has the ability to love. They love their children, their riches, their lifestyles, etc., etc. None of this answers the question. The word practical is relating to or manifested in practice or action rather than theoretical or ideal. For example, as adhering to adaptable guidelines rather than to the strict law of God. You know, as in not taking God's law seriously, just using it as a general guideline. Like thinking abstaining from sex before marriage is "not practical." That's how far we've fallen. That Christians would actually believe that.

And so I repeat, in my view "Practical Doctrines" has become a sort of modern-day code for the application of theology guided by popular worldly philosophies that the carnal Christian can "feel" comfortable with supporting. Or in simple terms, abandoning law for the compromise of niceties in the vision of polite social behaviors, and he justifies it by calling it grace. Or in other words, allowing sin because God's grace is bountiful:

Romans 6:1-2
  • "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
  • God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Let's not start neglecting that truth that grace moves us toward obeying the law and not sinning, not toward sinning because we are not under law. Selah.


Quote
>>>
...not the fire throwing, Hell casting one you preach he is.
<<<

I'm sorry you want a God other than Jehovah God (the one in the Bible), but this God is a fire throwing, Hell casting God. I would suggest that you actually read your Bible, since it is the infallible and truthful word of God. His own word says He will cast into Hell, and He will burn with fire. That may not be palatable to some "professing" Christians, but it is the Gospel Truth to others.

John 15:6
  • "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Revelation 20:15
  • "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire/i].'

You may not like it but these are not my words and not my decisions, it is God's word and His Sovereign good will.


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>>>
He forgives our sins, which is what non-practical Christians of the Reformed variety refuse to do.
<<<

Whether He forgives you of your sins is not for me to say. Whether he will burn many with fire and cast many into hell, I can say. Yes, absolutely He will. And "many" of those will be those who "thought" that they were His servants and living practical Christianity.

Matthew 7:22-24
  • "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?/i]
  • And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
  • Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

Do you think that their "practical Christianity" will save them as they prattle on about their prophecies and how unfair God's lack of forgiveness is because they have done many good works? The bottom line is, there is what is, and there is what you want to be in your idea of practical Christianity and a loving God.


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>>>
 Just like their fathers of the Catholic church before them.
<<<

The Roman Catholic Church is not the fathers of the Reformed, they are those they left to start the Reformed the church "because" they recognized the rebellion in that house in that they held doctrines that were not of God's family. God Bless Them!

Too many today won't do that. They won't leave a church that does not hold to the doctrines and laws of the family of God. They remain there with their own, and that tart odor they smell is the smoke of their burning.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Drew

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2019, 05:01:04 PM »

Do you guys think the apostasy is now, or it is coming soon?

It comes when the church turns against Israel.

Edward

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Re: The Growing Apostasy in the Church
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2019, 03:59:44 AM »
Thank you Reuben, Susan and Tony. I guess I was not reading the whole post or thread. I understand that sin cannot be conquered in this world except in Christ, I was just saying that I don't think we should stop fighting. I guess I agree that the reason that there is apostasy in the church is unfaithful ministers and church leaders, but we can't give up against fighting them also. I think you would agree?

 


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