Guns and the Bible

[john]

But let me see if I have this straight. You guys are saying that in order for a Christian to buy a gun to protect his home and family, he has to have scripture that says it is ok to do?

Some points made so far are:

1. God is Sovereign - a gun doesn't change the outcome (though the outcome is unknown to us)
2. We must trust in God - not our marksmanship (but God uses means)
3. We are not to seek to make God's word null by following worldly philosophy
4. Things we reason to be correct may just be antithetical to God's way of thinking
5. We do not need to defend our possessions - they all belong to God
6. Our true treasure is in heaven, not on earth
7. We are not to fear the enemy who can kill only the body - but God who has power of your eternal soul
8. A gun is not evil or a sin - but trusting in it for your peace, security, safety, life, and protection is - our ultimate trust must be in God


The real argument hasn't yet been made - the real crux of the matter lies in the dichotomy of God's unchanging plan vs. man's responsibility on earth. That is, God does not act in a vacuum. He uses means to accomplish the ends.

Consider Nehemiah, in rebuilding the wall in Jerusalem, under the order of King Artaxerxes. Indeed Nehemiah trusted that God would see through the project. But when evil men sought to stop the rebuilding and plotted to attack them, Nehemiah (through the agency of God) acted to protect the builders.

Neh 4:9  And we prayed to our God and set a guard as a protection against them day and night.

In this instance, Nehemiah could have continued to work knowing that God is Sovereign and the wall will be built regardless of the current dire circumstances. He could have said, "we are God's people doing God's work - we will simply trust that God will make everything work out". Perhaps as the enemy picked off the workers on the wall he could have chalked it up to God's will being done.

In fact, Nehemiah did the logical thing: He protected the workers that God entrusted to him. God used Nehemiah by giving him wisdom and courage - and Nehemiah reciprocated to God's Spirit within him by acting to arm the workers. By this God blessed Nehemiah and the wall was finished and the enemy could not attack the workers.

Read about it:

Neh 4:11-18
11 --  And our enemies said, "They will not know or see till we come among them and kill them and stop the work."
12 --  At that time the Jews who lived near them came from all directions and said to us ten times, "You must return to us."
13 --  So in the lowest parts of the space behind the wall, in open places, I stationed the people by their clans, with their swords, their spears, and their bows.
14 --  And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, "Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes."
15 --  When our enemies heard that it was known to us and that God had frustrated their plan, we all returned to the wall, each to his work.
16 --  From that day on, half of my servants worked on construction, and half held the spears, shields, bows, and coats of mail. And the leaders stood behind the whole house of Judah,
17 --  who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other.
18 --  And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.


The lesson here is that Nehemiah took positive action so that his workers were prepared for battle with spears, shields, bows, and coats of mail - yet it was "God" who had "frustrated their plan", that is, the plan to overthrow the project. Who frustrated the enemy? God did. How? Through weaponry and the prudent action of a man of God. God used means and the means that God often uses are Christian people. Not people standing idle as their loved ones are slaughtered, but people who are unafraid to defend the innocent.

The fact is, it is not because we have a sword that Jesus make the statement of the sword bearer being subject to having it used against them (i.e., to die by the sword). If that were so, God would have told Nehemiah to put away the sword. So why did Peter have to put his sword in its sheath? Because it was a tactically offensive maneuver that was unnecessary, imprudent, contrary to God's plan (Jesus had to die), and the source of the action was out of fear, reprisal, vengeance, anger, and selfish motives.  If you lash out with the sword as a way of life – expect that you will die by that very means. The vengeance you lash out with will be meted back to you in this life – and on Judgment Day.

Mat 7:2
2 --  For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Oba 1:15
15 --  For the day of the LORD is near upon all the nations. As you have done, it shall be done to you; your deeds shall return on your own head.


That doesn't mean we are to blast away at the enemies of God with guns a blazing. It means exactly what has been spoken previously here: That we trust not in our own ability or the things of this world to save us from our enemies. Should we happen upon a widow being beaten by a thug – it should be the Christian that subdues the ungodly first – not the heathen. Will the world speak well of God and Christians in general if the idle Christian says, “God will protect the widow from harm – I will trust in God”.  

Jas 2:15-17
15 --  If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 --  and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 --  Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

It is because we trust in God that we can rescue the widow in distress, help the oppressed, protect the weak, and do good. I do not advocate guns, violence, vengeance, or correcting all the immoral action done on earth - God doesn't call us to fixing all the ills of the world. But I hope that if a violent man were walking through your local mall shooting shoppers, that if there was a gun at your disposal you would use it to stop the carnage (or any other means at your disposal). It would be a sad commentary if later your reason for inaction was made known: “Well, I'm a Christian, and therefore I know that using a gun to stop this killer would only cause me to die by the sword at some point, and as a Christian I have faith that God will find a way to stop the rampaging killer -  which apparently did happen when someone else came to our rescue.  Of course, I stood by watching and praying, Christians are not of this world you know. And as a Christian I believe that if someone shoots you in the left cheek you should offer them the right too. It is not Christ-like to defend the weak or oppressed, Jesus never did.  Besides, I prayed for the safety of everyone in the mall, “be safe, be protected, and go your way“.  

Isa 1:16-17
16 --  Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 --  learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

God's unchanging plan may just involve a homeowner with a gun putting the killer to flight or if necessary, to his death. Not because as some insist, there is a love of possessions or an ungodly trust in a gun to save. God is not asking Christians to pack heat - but should you be confronted with evil - judge righteously and consider justice to those who are oppressed. I believe it is possible (nay mandatory) to trust in God and simultaneously take reasonable measure to protect your family or your neighbors - even to lay down your life in their defense. Whatever happens on this earth, we know God ordained the end of it - in His wisdom we still trust, though we, like Nehemiah, may have need to have the sword at the ready.

Pro 31:9
9 --  Open thy mouth, judge righteously, And minister justice to the poor and needy.

But again I say, to those listening: If you cannot help but make an idol out of a gun, then don't have one. If your eye offends you - then pluck it out. If money causes you to forget God - sell all you possess and give your money away. If you make an idol out of any thing to put your trust in that thing - whether gun, goods, or gods - cast it all away.

john

[WrldTvlr]

Well said!!!

I was amused to see how others in this thread assumed facts not in evidence.  For instance, mentioning a gun could be used for protection and others assuming that meant above, or before, all else.  Or talking about an eye for an eye which is clearly revenge or vengeance (Romans 12:19), not protection.  

Thank you for the reasoned post, which, in my opinion, shows God does not expect us to be doormats for evil.

 

[Tony Warren]

>>>
Wonderful. You guys are smarter than John Gill. Not.
<<<

Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't presume to be smarter than anyone. John Gill, John Calvin or John Doe. Nevertheless, I'm smart enough to know that when I read the Bible, what I read there is true, and cannot be gainsaid, resisted or otherwise contradicted by the personal opinions of men. Unlike some, what I read is not just words that I really don't believe, but pay lip service to because as a Christian, I'm expected to. They have meaning!!!! They can't be made void by man's carnal nature. Thus when Christ corrects Peter and expounds on his actions elucidating that "all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword," to this Christian, that is exactly what He means. John Gill notwithstanding.

What's more, no scripture anyone can "misapply," can make that untrue. Selah.

>>>
But let me see if I have this straight. You guys are saying that in order for a Christian to buy a gun to protect his home and family, he has to have scripture that says it is ok to do?
<<<

No. I'm saying that "all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Hey, figure it out! It's not that complicated. Christian doctrines come from the scriptures, they don't come from the osmosis of consensus, tradition or public opinion. So if anyone wants to fear the terrors of the night and worry about having a swords or bow and arrows or gun and riffle, then let them be comforted by those worldly things. But as for me and my house, we are comforted in the sword, shield or protection of the Lord. ..to each his own.

Psalms 91:3-6

• "Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.[
• He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
• Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
• Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday."

To me, these are more than "Just Words!" There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear. Because fear hath torment, and those that fear are not made perfect in love. Let's see, are they just words to mouth in living, or words to live by? To each his own. When you have love you can walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and fear no evil. Because God's rod and His staff are a comfort to you. Are these just trite remarks or platitudes? We are prepared a table of God in the presence of our enemies and those who would come against us. So exactly what do I need a sword for, except as a emblem of my worldly fear?


"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

[Tony Warren]

>>>
I was amused....
<<<

You seem to have been amusing yourself ever since you got here.

>>>
...to see how others in this thread assumed facts not in evidence.
<<<

Strange comment for a fellow that hasn't used one single scripture to prove any opinion he has put forth. So when you do, I'll have something to comment on. Until that time, your words are just wind, which may stir the grass, but that is insignificant with regards to sound theological discussions. Your amusement notwithstanding.

>>>
For instance, mentioning a gun could be used for protection and others assuming that meant above, or before, all else.
<<<

Exactly where do we read that if all else fails, take the sword? Chapter and verse? Just who is assuming here, who is speculating, who is making suppositions? Let God be true and every man a liar. The gun is today's equivalent of the sword.

>>>
Or talking about an eye for an eye which is clearly revenge or vengeance (Romans 12:19), not protection.
<<<

I'm afraid Fred (who agrees with you, and who lacks relevant scripture also) is the one who presented that passage as biblical validation for protection.  If you had actually read this thread, instead of merely reacting to it, you would have known we were responding to his obvious misapplication of that scripture. Educate yourself before trying to educate others.

 Proverbs 18:13
 

• "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

 Next time, actually have something to respond about scripturally, or actually read the thread.

>>>
Thank you for the reasoned post, which, in my opinion, shows God does not expect us to be doormats for evil.
<<<

Doormats for evil? hmmmmm. What you mean is, you will not stand by and be smitten on the cheek without defending yourself. Not when you have your reasoning powers. So why don't you just call it what it is?

Matthew 5:39

• "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

You've proven my point. The "typical" Christian response is, NO! But in order not to be accused of negating God's word, let's call it "being a doormat for evil." ..as if that changes something.

I'm sure you know by now that your opinion and $1.00 will get a cup of coffee. ...maybe! Reasoning something out in our minds is easy. Everyone does it, and for everything under the sun. Obedience to God's word is harder, and requires a humble Spirit. Not one that says No, but one that says, in all things, Thy Will Be Done. We could reason that in the Old Testament Jephthah sacrificed His daughter, therefore God "really" didn't mean for us not to sacrifice our daughters in the New Testament era. There's my Biblical reasoning. I could reason that in a pinch, Lot offered his daughters to be raped, therefore this is a legitimate option for Christians today, "since" Lot was obviously God's great servant. There's my Biblical reasoning. I could reason that since God "clearly" told His people in the Old Testament not to intermarry, that such practices today are against God's word. Again, with biblical reasoning. There is no end to what is called "biblical reasoning." Pick a verse, and trump another. Man's reasoning trumps everything from change of 7th day Saturday worship, to Predestination. Yes, the Old Testament is used to trump laws against divorce today, to Christ telling us not to take up the sword to live thereby.

Psalms 33:17

• "An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength."

Yet man will reason it out in his own mind, that the Lord gave Israel thousands of horses for safety and protection against their enemies, therefore it is not a vain or untruthful thing that we should look to the Horse for safety. But man's reasoned rationalizations does not and cannot negate Christ's word about Christian behavior. Thus the passage is not meaningless, it is one hundred percent true. As has been said many times here, one passage of scripture cannot negate another passage of scripture much less man's reasoning negate it. ie, show me a scripture that says something (as I have) or tell me it's just your opinion and speculation. I didn't reason God meant He that takes the sword will perish by the sword, I bore faithful witness to it. I didn't reason that God meant turn the other cheek and don't resist evil, I bore faithful witness to it. I didn't negate it in vainly declaring that this makes us doormats for evil. I accept it! I didn't reason that God meant that the fear of man is a trap, but whoever puts his trust in the LORD shall be safe, I bore faithful witness to it. ie, those were His words, not mine. There is a difference! Yes, it's easy to go through the Old Testament and find rationalization for anything that we want or desire to do. And I do mean ANYTHING! And there are legions of professed Christians that do so. Nothing new there. And God deliberately had it penned that way, as a snare. But when a well reasoned speculation comes up against the Word itself, it falls short every time.

"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

[Sojourner]

Well said!!!

I was amused to see how others in this thread assumed facts not in evidence.   

 WrldTvir,
  John always adds something interesting to any discussion he is involved in. But you add nothing that would help anyone to grow.

  I had a gun at one time, I don't have it anymore, but I don't see any sin in having a gun. Neither does Tony or John. Whether I trusted in my gun, I don't really know for sure. Maybe I did, maybe not. It's a moot point now since I no longer have it.

I do think a good point has been made in trusting in weapons. In the era I grew up in, I never remember any Preacher ever having a gun or preaching about what evil me could do to you, except as it related to salvation. Of course, I never lived in the south where I'm told the gun is big down there. But I think if my Pastor would have had a gun or preached that we should own guns in case we are attacked, I would have had less respect for him as a servant of God. I know that subjective, but that's just me. There's something wrong with a Pastor preaching such fear or being anxious about the wicked world. Something just doesn't smell Christian about that.

 Psalm 118:5 & 6
 "I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place. The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?"

There is my sword. There's why I won't fear what man can do to me.  The word made real. That's what Tony is talking about. The real word as opposed to "what people think God means".

[bloodstone]

The real argument hasn't yet been made - the real crux of the matter lies in the dichotomy of God's unchanging plan vs. man's responsibility on earth.

John,
 I understand what you are saying but I don't believe that there is a dichotomy between God's unchanging plan and our responsibility on earth. They both should be in agreement, not in contrast. And also your comment would seem to imply that man's responsibility on earth is to own a gun or a sword. Where do you get that idea? If that is not your point, then I do not see your point about responsibility.  Man has a responsibility to care for his family, but that doesn't require a gun. If it did, then most Christians from Christ's time to now were irresponsible. Granted, some people think responsibility means we should have guns in our homes, but that has nothing to do with scripture commands or God's word. That is a belief system held both by some Christians, but particularly by non Christians. So it is not a Christian belief, it is the world's belief that some Christians also hold.

That is, God does not act in a vacuum. He uses means to accomplish the ends.

As Tony said, just because God works through man doesn't mean what man does is approved of God. God worked through Pilate to kill Christ, but that didn't mean that it was the correct and righteous thing for Pilate to do. So I don't think this reasoning proves anything biblical. That's why we have governments that don't carry the sword in vain.

Consider Nehemiah, in rebuilding the wall in Jerusalem, under the order of King Artaxerxes. Indeed Nehemiah trusted that God would see through the project. But when evil men sought to stop the rebuilding and plotted to attack them, Nehemiah (through the agency of God) acted to protect the builders.

 There are a hundred things in the Old Testament that righteous men did that you wouldn't do, nor use as an example of proper Christian behavior. You wouldn't get drunk and have sex with your daughters would you? We all know that much of the Old Testament examples are for types, not something to be followed as the thing to do as God's commands or laws are.

What you are doing is looking at those Old Testament experiences of righteous men recorded there and implying these examples mean we can do the same. Tony already gave the example of Lot, you wouldn't offer your daughters to Rapists would you? So my point is not that we cannot learn from these experiences we see there, but that the Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed. And that the rationale that Christian's have a responsibility to own guns is unproven. And I use the word "responsibility" only because your post started off with it.

[bloodstone]

I was amused to see how others in this thread assumed facts not in evidence.

World TTvlr,
  A spurious charge. Who assumed facts not in evidence? If you make a charge, at least have the decency to back it up. You, Gene Pool and Fred are just making charges, but not backing up anything. That doesn't bode well for the righteousness of your position when you cannot intelligently back up what youy say and choose only to make charges.

[WrldTvlr]

You seem to have been amusing yourself ever since you got here.

After a review of my posts nothing popped out as being ha ha amusing, thus I will take the comment as meaning not being serious.  That is not my feeling or belief.  

>>>Strange comment for a fellow that hasn't used one single scripture to prove any opinion he has put forth. So when you do, I'll have something to comment on. Until that time, your words are just wind, which may stir the grass, but that is insignificant with regards to sound theological discussions. Your amusement notwithstanding.

It will be noted that of my 3 posts 1 has Scripture and 2 referred to posts which contained Scripture.

As to facts not in evidence:

In my reply #55 of the thread my statement to bloodstone's post #54 was:

"You may believe the Bible teaches we are to be pacifists, or doormats for evil, I don't.  There is a difference between protection and revenge."

Bloodstone's reply #56 was:

"Pacifist? You say that like it's a bad word."

 

Exactly where do we read that if all else fails, take the sword? Chapter and verse? Just who is assuming here, who is speculating, who is making suppositions? Let God be true and every man a liar. The gun is today's equivalent of the sword.

I understand some, maybe many, here do not consider the Westminster Assembly of Divines to be of any importance, not being one of those the following is posted.

Westminster Shorter Catechism
Question 68

Q: What is required in the sixth commandment?
A: The sixth commandment requireth all lawful endeavours to preserve our own life,1 and the life of others.2


   1. Ephesians 5:29. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.
      Matthew 10:23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
   2. Psalm 82:3-4. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
      Job 29:13. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
      1 Kings 18:4. For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.

I'm afraid Fred (who agrees with you, and who lacks relevant scripture also) is the one who presented that passage as biblical validation for protection.  If you had actually read this thread, instead of merely reacting to it, you would have known we were responding to his obvious misapplication of that scripture. Educate yourself before trying to educate others.

The eye for eye in my post #61 was referring to Bloodstone's post #56

"Matthew 5:38-39
 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also"."

Posted by: bloodstone

A spurious charge. Who assumed facts not in evidence? If you make a charge, at least have the decency to back it up. You, Gene Pool and Fred are just making charges, but not backing up anything. That doesn't bode well for the righteousness of your position when you cannot intelligently back up what youy say and choose only to make charges.

Check your post #56 where you stated in reply to my post #55:  

"Pacifist? You say that like it's a bad word."

 

[Tony Warren]

>>>
Bloodstone's reply #56 was:
Quote
"Pacifist? You say that like it's a bad word."
<<<

I happen to agree with Bloodstone, that indeed you do say it like it is a bad word. Is it unlawful or a sin for a Christian to be against war and violence? The dictionary defines Pacifist as a person who believes in peace, or is opposed to war, or one opposed to using physical violence on another. or; 2.a person refusing to engage in killing because of one's principles or religious beliefs. ..sorry, I don't see where that is an evil thing. To his own master he stands or falls. Judge not, even as I don't judge any Christian choosing to own a Gun. But that doesn't stop me from witnessing that trusting in the gun is not Christian.

I know professed Christians that are Pacifists and wouldn't harm a mouse, and I know professed Christians who would shoot anyone who would steal their car and not feel one bit of guilt. It's not my job to judge them, I simply witness to what the word of God says. Not what I want it to say, but what it actually says. My posts were about fear, anxiety and trust in the gun for protection. Christians can ignore or take to heart those words I quote, and apply them even as they feel justified. ...but we can't make those words untrue by covering them up with rhetoric, misapplied scriptures or worldly reasonings about a gun being a tool of responsibility for Christians.

Numbers 22:18

• "...If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more."

ie, all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. That's a Given as far as I'm concerned. I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more. Neither to change that by adding, or by taking away from it. I have faith that it is true, and that it is man's addendas that should be changed.

>>>
I understand some, maybe many, here do not consider the Westminster Assembly of Divines to be of any importance, not being one of those the following is posted.
<<<

...or some here do not consider the Westminster Assembly to be Divine, or to be placed up against what is clearly written? 

Without too much trouble any intelligent/wise Christian can figure out why some people typically defer to the words of men when the word of God is witnessed to them. The "paper" you choose to quote in lieu of scripture is not at all Divine, but another of the many writings of men. Thus it is of no more value to qualify the word of God, quoted word for word, than your posts or your opinions are. In other words, there is the 6th commandment in the Bible, and there are God's word qualifying it that we understand, and then there are men's addendas or opinions concerning the 6th commandment. They aren't the same. Don't condemn anyone for recognizing that. ..I know, I know, you don't think it's God's word. But in practical application, some people don't seem to know the difference. Me, I don't look at these writings of men as any "proof" of anything, thus we cannot use them to qualify God's commands.  They cannot change or explain away one single command in the word. If we want to know the full scope of the sixth commandment, we search the divine scriptures, not the Westminster non-divines. That's not Tony's law, that's a basic principle of sound Biblical hermeneutics, and actually God's law. ie, His word is the authority, not these words. The words of God cannot be circumvented by man's additions, no matter how highly vaunted these men and their traditions may be lifted.

(...by the way, I have the Westminster writings on my site, even as I do other Christian men's writings - ...meaning, it has its proper place - That not being prover or arbiter)

..now if you had quoted God's word "qualifying" God's word, then some of us would be impressed. But you didn't, and you haven't, have you? At least, not as it relates to some alleged responsibility of Christians to own swords or guns in order to care for family. Yes, I have a problem with those who always seem to have to fall back on Church tradition and personal opinions in support of their interpretations. Now "why" would you THINK they have to do that, with so much scripture to fall back on? Could it possibly be because there really is no scripture that supports the belief of Christians arming themselves to protect their families in preparation for some attack by wicked men, real or imagined?

And what would possibly make anyone think the writers of the Westminster paper could trump God's word? Can their words be put up against the WORD I quoted to make it untrue, or to not speak of the way Peter was using the sword? Clearly, he wasn't using it for vengeance, now was he? He was using it for defense. But somehow that little fact of God's word gets lost in all the pride and hurt feelings and rhetoric. ..well, not lost, but ignored or hidden. Out of sight, out of mind.

Romans 3:4

• "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I'll stick to the real Divines, which are the commands of God I quoted. You can be offended by that and stick with what man calls divines if you choose. And by and by we shall see who God thinks was faithful in not turning to the right hand and to the left in order to avoid what His Holy Word actually says. I'm comfortable with that. Because with the faith of Christ, I trust in God, and know that unlike man, God judges righteously. His word is able to find the hidden, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. So any evil I am hiding will be seen.  Because it's those hidden thoughts and intents of the heart that are really deceiving to man. But not God. ...and that's a good thing.

>>>
A: The sixth commandment requireth all lawful endeavours to preserve our own life,1 and the life of others.2
<<<

All lawful endeavors to preserve our own life? So should I spend a million dollars for an opperation that will preserve my life a few more years? I mean if all things lawful. Should I command my family to keep me on artificial life support systems long after my heart stops beating since that's lawful too? Should I go to Mexico for a rare kidney transplant to preserve my life? ..point being, who is to decide what is all lawful endeavors to preserve our life? ...You? ..A Committee? ...the Westminster guys? ..the doctors? ...Congress? Yeah, the waters start to get a little murky and muddy doesn't it? God never said go to any measure to preserve your life, get a gun, move into a Fort, buy a moat, these are all additions of men. If God meant for man to do anything lawful to preserve Life, Stephen would have fought and tried to kill the wicked men attacking him. ...then again, he didn't have the spirit of the church today, he had the Spirit of God.

Acts 7:59-60

• "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
• And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

Instead of wishing he had a sword, he prayed God would not lay this sin to their charge. ...Now there's a man with the Spirit of God, rather than the spirit of the world. True Christian humility, not the fake stuff that passes for it today.
 
But I digress. The sixth commandment is, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" (Murder). Try as man may, God knows, this command has nothing whatsoever to do with any alleged Christian responsibility to own a sword or gun to preserve his life. ...NOTHING! It's yet another misapplied scripture in lieu of real Biblical support for what man really wants to do of his own volition. The old, "God told me to do it" excuse, is just that. God said thy shalt not Murder. Not thy shalt not live without a sword or gun. And I think its bridging on criminal to privately interpret God's 6th command that way. ..But that's just me.

>>>
   1. Ephesians 5:29. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.
<<<

Yeah...

>>>
      Matthew 10:23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
<<<

Yeah...

>>>
   2. Psalm 82:3-4. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
<<<

Yeah....

>>>
      Job 29:13. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
<<<

Yeah...

>>>
      1 Kings 18:4. For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.
<<<

Yeah... 

OK, you're throwing out scriptures that say nothing about the Church's responsibility to purchase guns, swords or clubs to preserve his life or to defend anyone. But it is the typical non-justification, justification! But you've changed one thing, you have this time quoted scripture. ...albeit, not at all relevant to this discussion.

>>>
The eye for eye in my post #61 was referring to Bloodstone's post #56

Pacifist? You say that like it's a bad word. Again, just like Fred and others, you reply with opinion, but I respect God's word to be more authoritative. Christ was our leader, opposed to violence (Pacifist) and he spoke of this. Even though we don't like to hear it.

 Matthew 5:38-39
 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also".
<<<

To me, Bloodstone's post was pointing out the prevalent attitude, which it seems to me would have Today's Christians against Christ's stand on defense of one's person, or one's belongings, as commanding to turn the other cheek. Doesn't seem they or you really like that command.  Had many Christians been there when Christ taught them to turn the other cheek, I'm sure they'd be quoting Old Testament writings on how we should let no one take advantage of us or make us doormats for evil. Indeed, everything you have said thus far illustrates your opposition to such precepts that we not "defend" ourselves if we are slapped on the right cheek, or if someone took our coat. Indeed, I understand it. It's the way of the world. I just think Christians should not seek to make these clear commands void of any real meaning, by "implyiong" that's not what He really means! Or maybe I am wrong? Let me ask you PLAINLY, if someone smacked you on the right cheek, would you turn the other? Or would you label that Pacifism and scream NEVER, because some paper of men says that's not what Christ really meant? I eagerly await your answer.

>>>
Check your post #56 where you stated in reply to my post #55: 
Quote
"Pacifist? You say that like it's a bad word."
<<<

You mean you didn't say that like it was a bad word?

Neither a Christian's refusal to own a gun, nor a Christian owning a gun, is a sin. Nothing Christ ever said even remotely "implies" we are to arm ourselves because of the wickedness of man. On the contrary, Christ said we are to be humble, as sheep among wolves, harmless as a dove, turning the other cheek, taking punishment for righteousness sake without striking back, etc., etc. But the world doesn't like this because that makes them feel vulnerable. ...Duh! Pride is with us all. No one is immune to it. Christ is against Christians acting just like the world, and that is His main point in all these commands. A point which many Christians missed completely being so enthralled with the world's admiration of the gun as glorious protector. Not to mention the "implied" irresponsibility of Christians who don't have guns, nor need them, nor desire them.

"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

[Fred]

...or some here do not consider the Westminster Assembly to be Divine, or to be placed up against what is clearly written? 

  I don't get it. Why does everything have to have scripture with you? Everything is not supported by scripture. There are lots of things not in the bible but that are good. You put God in a box requiring scripture to prove everything. You can't put God in a box. Beside, everything is subject to our interpretation. That we should turn the other cheek is your liberal interpretation. So who is to say you are right and we are wrong. Didn't King David Kill people? God was with him and he is one of the great prophets. scripture says that Mr. Warren. So live with it. He had a sword.

[WrldTvlr]

Thank you all for the input.  I will study it further.

Peace.

p.s.  I don't consider pacifist to be a bad word.

[Beechwood]

Just wanted to say that I forwarded this thread to many of my Christian friends suggesting they read all sides all the way through. I am interested in what they think about it, as it is very interesting and food for thought for me.

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen".
  2nd Peter 3:16

[bloodstone]

Just wanted to say that I forwarded this thread to many of my Christian friends suggesting they read all sides all the way through. I am interested in what they think about it, as it is very interesting and food for thought for me.

Pray they are not reformed friends, or they just may tell you exactly what they think. 

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen".
  2nd Peter 3:16

 Grow in Grace. What a wonderful verse for this thread.

[Della]

 Grow in Grace. What a wonderful verse for this thread.

 I often wonder, what does growing in grace really mean.

[Tony Warren]

>>>
...or some here do not consider the Westminster Assembly to be Divine, or to be placed up against what is clearly written?

  I don't get it. Why does everything have to have scripture with you?
<<<

Without scripture there would be uncertainty and confusion, and no one could possibly know for sure what doctrines of the Church were the words of men, and what doctrines were of God. So every doctrine of the Church has to do with scripture today because God is not speaking from the presence of the Burning Bush today. God's voice is not thundering from Mount Sinai. God is not coming down to speak from the glory of a burning cloud. God is not talking through a donkey in the road. He speaks today through His Holy word, the scriptures. So that is precisely how we are to know when something is from the mind of man, and when it is from the mind of God. When we quote "HIM" rather than man, then our hope is in His protection, rather than in man's. Rather than answer our enemies with a sword or gun, we answer as Stephen did, with obedience to the word of God.

Psalms 119:42-47

• "So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
• And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
• So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
• And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
• I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
• And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved."

Some choose to delight their possessions, some in their weaponry, some in the words of men, but we should delight in the word of God. Delight in that which is authoritative in how we should live. Only then do we truly walk at liberty in peace and safety. Only then do we have we no need for bars or fences, but are fully secured in the Lord's Holy Mountain. He that takes the worldly sword shall perish, but he who takes the Spiritual sword, has life eternal. scripture tells us that. And that is why it is always scripture with us. Because in "faith" we "believe" it, rather than just giving lip service to believing it.
 
 

>>>
Everything is not supported by scripture. There are lots of things not in the bible but that are good. You put God in a box requiring scripture to prove everything. You can't put God in a box.
<<<

No we can't. But God puts Himself in a Box when He declares His word immutable, trustworthy and infallible. It's unchangeable. If that's not the "proverbial" box, I don't know what is. When God declares that He cannot lie, He has pout Himself in that proverbial box. And there is no way for Him to get out of that, so His word must be faithful and true.

...of course, the world wants to think outside the box where they don't have to abide by God's strict code of conduct, rules, laws and regulations. Do you think Christians don't need scripture to prove everything? I say every Christian doctrine MUST be proven by scripture, else how is it a doctrine of God? Thus, we are at odds. The world thinking outside the box, and the word of God hemmed in on all sides.

Romans 12:2

• "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may PROVE what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Amen! And the only way to prove the sundry doctrines of men is to try/prove them by the infallible word of God. It solely is arbiter of what doctrines the Church holds are actually God's. Sola Scriptura.

>>>
Beside, everything is subject to our interpretation.
<<<

No! That's a well oiled myth, but it is not true. Despite the common misconception, the scriptures are not subject to private/personal interpretation. That's exactly why I reject man's opinions about the scriptures in favor of God's word about them. In other words, the Bible is it's own interpreter! That's not just a cute Church saying, it is a sound biblical principle that far too long has been ignored by the Church.

Matthew 22:29

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

Ergo, for God's people not to err, they should know the scriptures. Not just to read them, but to have knowledge of them. For they are what keeps us on the right path, and not deferring to words of men. But like those Sadducees in Matthew 22 who read the Bible regularly but did not really know the scriptures, so a great many professed Christians do today. There is only one sound way to interpret scripture. And that is by scripture (rather than man) qualifying scripture. Never by the man's private interpretations. ie.. if it ain't stated in the Bible, then it is man's interpretation of the Bible.

Example 1. God being the father, God being the Son, and God being the Holy Spirit, One God, is a biblical interpretation. Because it is clearly delineated in scripture.

Example 2. The Church paying its Pastor $100,000 a year and a luxurious home, or the laity required to have swords to protect their family, or the doctrine of Purgatory, are all private/personal interpretations. Because it is clearly not delineated in scripture.

The only difference is, one is in scripture, the others are not. Or one is soundly supported by God's word, the others are supported by additions to God's word.

>>>
 That we should turn the other cheek is your liberal interpretation.
<<<

Let's prove that comment. Let's test your theory.

Matthew 5:38-39

• "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
• But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Nothing taken away from this by man, no man made interpretation added to it, sounds like an unqualified command of God to me.

God's liberal?

Hmmmmmm. Well I guess He is in some ways, since He didn't strike me down in my wickedness, but was longsuffering or patient with me, calling me out and translating me into the Kingdom of God. espite my wickedness. Considering, yeah, that's pretty liberal I guess. Selah! So yeah, maybe turning the other cheek is liberal. ..what's in a word?

>>>
So who is to say you are right and we are wrong. Didn't King David Kill people?
<<<

Indeed he did. Most notably, some guy whose wife he wanted to steal. Oh, you don't want to use that example because it doesn't fit your scenario? But in all David's wickedness, God, liberal that He is, forgave him that sin, and worked within him to make him one of the greats of prophesy. A lesson for us all. ...perhaps.

>>>
God was with him and he is one of the great prophets.
<<<

I echo your comments. I take it we both agree that just because David killed people, doesn't prove God wants us to kill people as he did? ..yes?

>>>
 scripture says that Mr. Warren. So live with it. He had a sword.
<<<

Amen! But if you're going to take one man's killing and arbitrarily use it to prove we can do the same today, even when it contradicts Christ's word, then when does it end? we'll have everyone pitting one scripture up against another, proving the other wrong? That's not interpretation, that's dueling scriptures. An unsound methodology in hermeneutics.

But thank God, our Lord had a sword as well, and iit is the word of salvation, forgiveness and propitiation. Else David might have ended up like some of the other Kings of Israel who trusted in the sword.

"nosce te ipsum"
 

Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"