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Author Topic: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save  (Read 10474 times)

Gilda

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2003, 07:45:06 PM »
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Gilda,

If I may explain my position without the benifit of the soothsayer's commentary.

What I believe is that the Bible clearly teaches that salvation will be finished before the start of the GT period.

With all that, I'm still not satisfied I have an answer. Can you give me a yes or no answer so I'll be sure?

You think that preaching salvation today is in vain because no one on earth can be saved anymore? Is this correct? Do you believe no one can be saved now?


Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2003, 07:48:52 PM »
>>What is different between Noah's time and our time? <<

What is the difference? Only the difference between night and day. Even though nobody became saved outside of Noah's family by his preaching, the opportunity for salvation was still there. Salvation has been available since man fell in the garden of Eden, until all the elect are sealed at the beginning of the GT period. That is the "DAY" that is talked about in:

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The DAY of salvation has a boundry which is set by God at the start of the GT. after which the spiritual night comes whe NO MAN can work.

Revelation 9:2  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

John 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

That in a nutshell is the difference between Noah's day and ours.

Galatians 4:16  Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Tony S


Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2003, 08:06:31 PM »
With all that, I'm still not satisfied I have an answer. Can you give me a yes or no answer so I'll be sure?

You think that preaching salvation today is in vain because no one on earth can be saved anymore? Is this correct? Do you believe no one can be saved now?,,


Yes, that is what I believe, but contrary to what the soothsayers say about me, I do continue to preach what we are instructed to preach in Rev.14.

Revelation 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This what I am preaching, we might not like it but it is called the everlasting gospel by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Tony S

Erik Diamond

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2003, 08:27:31 PM »
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If I may explain my position without the benifit of the soothsayer's commentary.

What I believe is that the Bible clearly teaches that salvation will be finished before the start of the GT period. The question that arises is, can we know when we are in the GT period? If you listen to some people around here we will never know if we are in GT or not. But if you listen to the Bible, you will see that we can and will know. Now by simple deduction, if we can know that we are in the GT period and the sealing of the elect is finished before it starts, what is the only conclusion that we can arrive at?

Those people that want to bury their heads in the sand and say we can't know that we are in the GT period, therefore we can't know that the sealing of the elect is finished are deceiving themselves.

That is false accusation, Tony.  Most of us believe that we are probably in the great tribulation and agreed with the bible that the salvation will end after God have finish sealing His elect. The POINT is that we should not worry about whether the salvation has ended or not.  Just because we are in Great Tribulation does not give us the license to stop preach salvation gospel. Am I right, people!? Not a single verse in bible that God said we can stop preach becasue we have entered Great Tribulation.

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Matthew 24:15  When ye therefore shall [Bsee[/B] the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This verse is set in the GT context, although the soothsayers would have you believe that it could be talking about any time in the history of the church, but be that as it may, it says when we "see" the abomination standing in the holy place, we are to flee.


We never said that the Great Tribulation could be talking about 'any time in history of the church'. You misunderstood us. The church has always had tribulation until the apostasy and to the point of abomination of desolation when we finally will see it in the church.  It started with increasing apostasy and rise of false prophets in the church. Overwhelming the Saints therein 'killing us" (Rev 11). And then later when we received "spirit of life" from heaven, we will be able to 'see' the abomination of desolation and flee. Not before.

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This will coincide with the loosing of Satan, when he takes his seat in and begins to rule in the "temple of God".

I personally believe that the abomination of desolation will not occur until sometime little after Satan has been loosing.

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2 Thessalonians 2:3-4  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I believe that the man of sin will be revealed THROUGH false prophets sometime during the Great Tribulation when we will be able to 'see' the abomination of desolation (their false gospels and lying signs and wonders. Not Satan himself). No, not at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. That is why we did not know exactly when the Great Tribulation started or when God have finish sealing his Elect, or even when Satas was first loosened. Until God gave us the knowledge to understand about the signs of our time.

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Notice in both passages there is an expectation by God that we will "KNOW" or "SEE" that these things are happening. The coming of Christ will not happen until when? Until the "man of sin" is REVEALED! Does that sound like we can't know we are in the GT period to you?

Of course, we will be able to KNOW when we are in the Great Tribulation as long as the Holy Spirit reveal it to each individual (elects) to his own will and time. Not all elects will understand it at the same time. It will take over time (a short one anyway) and they will all be coming out as God pour His Judgement upon unfaithful church.  We will know by the signs ourselves.  

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Gilda

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2003, 08:36:53 PM »
With all that, I'm still not satisfied I have an answer. Can you give me a yes or no answer so I'll be sure?

You think that preaching salvation today is in vain because no one on earth can be saved anymore? Is this correct? Do you believe no one can be saved now?,,


Yes, that is what I believe,

Tony S


That's all I need to know. I didn't believe it, but it's true. I shall have no further communicatuons with you.

 2 John 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2003, 08:58:07 PM »
>>Of course, we will be able to KNOW when we are in the Great Tribulation as long as the Holy Spirit reveal it to each individual (elects) to his own will and time. Not all elects will understand it at the same time. It will take over time (a short one anyway) and they will all be coming out as God pour His Judgement upon unfaithful church.  We will know by the signs ourselves. <<    
   
Erik,

That is my whole point, if we can know that we are in the GT, then we know that the elect have all been sealed, because that is accomplished BEFORE the GT starts. Therefore. if we know that we are in the GT and the sealing is over then if you still want to preach the salvation message, even though you know that it will bring only judgment, that is your business. I am not trying to stop you nor can I stop you from preaching anything you want. It is just that for ME, it would be more faithful to tell it like it is and tell people what Rev.14 tells us to preach during the GT, namely the everlasting gospel that tells us that the hour of God's judgment has come. What is your problem with that? So long as you are doing what you believe you are commanded to do, who can force you to do otherwise? I am preaching what I believe that I am commanded to preach and not you or anybody else can change that. I'm sorry if that has offended you because we have always been able to discuss/disagree about things in the past without all the animosity. What happened?

Tony S


Erik Diamond

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2003, 09:18:52 PM »
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if we know that we are in the GT and the sealing is over then if you still want to preach the salvation message, even though you know that it will bring only judgment, that is your business. I am not trying to stop you nor can I stop you from preaching anything you want. It is just that for ME, it would be more faithful to tell it like it is and tell people what Rev.14 tells us to preach during the GT, namely the everlasting gospel that tells us that the hour of God's judgment has come. What is your problem with that
?

Tony, is "everylasting gospel" strictly judgemental? I think not.

I am interested to know if someone new come up to you and ask you to explain more about Jesus Christ and why he need Christ as savior? Will you tell him that you will not able to offer salvation message, but "everlasting gospel" in a sense that it is only a judgemental message that the salvation has ended?

What's wrong with the picture?

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2003, 09:45:22 PM »
>>I am interested to know if someone new come up to you and ask you to explain more about Jesus Christ and why he need Christ as savior? Will you tell him that you will not able to offer salvation message, but "everlasting gospel" in a sense that it is only a judgemental message that the salvation has ended? <<

Erik,

Fortunately, I have not run into that situation as yet, so I don't know exactly what I would say, but I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide me about what to answer. Until that happens I am not going to worry about that.

Luke 21:14-15  Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Tony S   

Erik Diamond

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2003, 10:01:02 PM »
Okay, I rest my case.

Consider this case closed.

Take care, Tony.

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2003, 11:56:46 PM »
>>Our testimony may change as we grow in Grace and understanding of the Bible.  But let’s make one thing very clear, the Truth itself never changes.  The truths of the Bible remain constant, in season and out of season.  What you’ve done here is confuse/mix the issue of ‘understanding’ with the issue of God’s Truths which, like God himself, do NOT change.<<

There is no confusion/mixing on my part, I understand perfectly that there are some immutable truths that are taught in the Bible.

1.God never changes.
2. It is impossible for God to lie.
3. Jesus is the only name under heaven by which men can be saved etc.

But there are also things that do change, like God's programs. Like during the OT, it was a true statement that the blood desendants of Abraham were known as God's people. But after Jesus when to the cross what was a true statement at one time was no longer true, now the spiritual Jews (Gentiles and Jews) which made up the church were known as God's people, God's program of who represented His kingdom   here on earth had changed.

Likewise, it was true that divorce was Biblical legal in the OT by writting a bill of divorcement, but after Jesus rescinded that command it was no longer Biblical (true).

My point is that although God never changes, He has and does change His programs and we do not contiinue to sanction divorce, do we? Or we do not continue to call national Isreal God's people, do we? So it seems to me you are the one that is confused, just because something is true at a certain point and time, does not mean that it will always be true and that has nothing to do with the fact that God does not change. You want me to believe that even though we know that God will finish His salvation program before the GT begins all continues as before as if nothing happened? God has never worked that way and I believe that He is not going to work that way in this instance.

Isaiah 5:5  And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

Isaiah 6:9-10  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Jeremiah 15:2  And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.

God has never hid His judgments so that the people don't know what is happenning and continue as usual and I don't think the GT period is any different.

>>You continue to make an issue of this, even though you well know that those here fully understand that God, according to HIS methods and timetable, will at some point prior to the final judgment (which may be years, days, or just hours before his return…. only God knows) seal all his elect, thus ending salvation.  Even this teaching is consistent with what the Bible ultimately teaches which is this:<<

God has revealed to us when the last of the elect will be sealed, it is BEFORE the beginning of the GT period.

Revelation 7:1-3  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

By your statement, we will not know when we are in the GT period, therefore we cannot know when the last of the elect were sealed. I say if we can know that we are in the GT period, which I believe the Bible teaches us that we will know when we are in it (not when it started!) then we can know that all the elect will have be sealed. Why do you suppose God put that information in the Bible. To peak our curiousity? He tells us that He is going to end  the salvation program, but pretend He didn't say that, continue as usual. God has never been ambiguous when it comes to proclaiming what judgments He is going to bring, or when, in the past and I don't think He is going to start now. If you believe that, it is your problem, but you could never prove it by the Bible.
   
>>Paul,  having been taught in the desert for 3 years by God Himself, knew a great many things (Gal 1:15-19).  Yet, moved by the Holy Spirit, what does he passionately teach?<<

There is a big difference between the time Paul lived in and the time of the GT period. God had just given this command:

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is what God says about the GT period:

Revelation 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony (witness), the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

One command is the beginning the other is the end. If we are to believe you we can know when it started but we cannot know when it ends, right? Here again God is just peaking our curiousity? What is the purpose in your opinion?

>>I'm fully aware that, just as you've brushed aside everyone's testimony of Scriptures on this issue, you will brush this one aside.  I don't expect any serious contemplation or honest dialog, but rather write this for the benefit of our newer and more vulnerable participants.<<

If people see truth in what you say, let them follow you, I am NOT looking to make disiples, I am only giving answers for what I believe, I need no approval from man, but God be my Judge.
   
1 Chronicles 21:13  And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man.

Tony S   

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2003, 12:11:56 AM »
>>That's all I need to know. I didn't believe it, but it's true. I shall have no further communicatuons with you.

2 John 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: <<


Gilda,

There are many prophets out there that will tell you what you want to hear, I am not one of them, you do what the Holy Spirit guides you to do and follow whomever you want to believe, I am not looking for mans (or woman's) approval. God's richest blessings on your search for truth.

1 Kings 22:8  And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2003, 12:43:46 AM »
>>You haven't discussed anything since you started this mantra. The "fact" is, those are pertinent questions. As you well know, if you cannot tell us when Salvation ended, you cannot righteously tell us Salvation has ended. That's just plain common sense. It's dishonest to make one claim without knowing the other.<<

How many times do we have to go through this question? You know that the Bible teaches that salvation ends before the GT begins, so you and I both know when salvation ends, it is when the GT period begins. Why do you feign ignorance? Now whether we will know when the GT period is upon us is a different matter, if we can know that, then we will know salvation is finished.

Revelation 7:2-3  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The question is, if we can know we are in the GT period, do we pretent that it is business as usual or do we declare it? That is the  choice we have to make.
   
>>Another round of flawed logic and faulty reasoning. It is not only possible, but clear that we can and will see the signs of Christ's soon coming, but we will not know when Christ will return. That is made abundantly clear by Christ himself. And so "obviously" signs do not pinpoint the exact times, they are merely harbingers, foreshaddowing what is to come. "WHEN" is God's business. So to say that because we see the signs, therefore we must know when all are saved and no one else will be, is arrogant and disingenuous. And to ask what use are the signs is spurious.   <<

The return of Christ is not even the issue, if we can see the signs that the return of Christ is close, then that must mean that we are in that period right before His return called the great tribulation period, and if we can know that we are in the GT period, then we know the sealing of the elect is finished. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, it take the illumination of the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit.

Luke 21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Tony S

Sue Landow

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2003, 06:46:53 AM »
I am interested to know if someone new come up to you and ask you to explain more about Jesus Christ and why he need Christ as savior? Will you tell him that you will not able to offer salvation message, but "everlasting gospel" in a sense that it is only a judgemental message that the salvation has ended?

What's wrong with the picture?

Erik Diamond



Good point.
  But I think the answer to that is obvious. Of all the questions about salvation, doctrine, and "how to", that has been asked in this forum, Tony S is the one person here who never answers anyone's questions unless it has to do with this one subject. He seems to just not care about helping people, and that may be the most revealing thing. The saying based upon scriptures goes, "Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good". Despite his reply, our job doesn't change.

 The people who care in this forum are also obvious in their willingness to help other Christians understand scripture. We all know them by their willingness to help. Tony Warren, Goldrush, Erik, Judy, John, Kenneth, Bryan, Rebel, Christ_alone, Reformer, and I'm sure I've missed a few more.

What kind of gospel is it where you only tell people they have no hope and they can't be saved anymore? Is that really what God wants us to do? What kind of gospel sticks it's head in the air and refuses to help those in need of answers to their questions? That's not christian love, that's isolationism. You might as well go live with the monks and not help anyone but yourself. Tony S doesn't understand at all.

 Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Charity is the work of the true Christian. Benevolence which is lacking in some people. Just my added 2 cents.
"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened". Luke 13:20-21

judykanova

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2003, 07:53:13 AM »
Tony Silva,

You did not address one single Scripture in my last post.  Why is that?  I noticed that in the prior ('Return of Christ') thread, in which you charged me with not answering your questions,  you failed to see or understand that I answered with Scripture.  I found that very revealing -- that you wanted my words -- something you could maybe find fault with -- rather than God's Words.

Those Scriptures (and the many others that have been provided you) demonstrate  that your view does not harmonize with what the Bible teaches as a whole.  Forget my less than perfect words, and deal with what the Scriptures say.

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>>I am interested to know if someone new come up to you and ask you to explain more about Jesus Christ and why he need Christ as savior? Will you tell him that you will not able to offer salvation message, but "everlasting gospel" in a sense that it is only a judgemental message that the salvation has ended? <<

Erik,

Fortunately, I have not run into that situation as yet, so I don't know exactly what I would say, but I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide me about what to answer. Until that happens I am not going to worry about that.

If you can't even answer Erik's question which goes to the heart of this debate -- whether or not the salvation message – (which is at the core of the Gospel of Christ) – should be preached, then perhaps you need to just be quiet until you can.  Because that's the issue .... not whether or not we're in GT.... not whether or not salvation has ended -- the issue is whether or not the BIBLE dictates we exclude the message of salvation from our testimony of the Gospel of Christ, at any time.  

It would be wonderful if you would keep your focus on the issue, stop introducing and debating non-issues, and address the question that Erik put to you.  Otherwise, if you don't know what you'd do yourself, it goes beyond ridiculous that you would tell others that they are false in their convictions.

Your singular concern with 'prophecies' and 'mysteries' means nothing if you've lost sight of what it means to be a Christain ...
1 Cor 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

judykanova

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2003, 10:58:53 PM »
I want to make a correction to my last post to Tony Silva.  I said he didn't address any Sciptures from my last post.  He did however take issue with my saying that "Truth never changes", and addressed those Scriptures.  What I should have explicitly stated (although implied) was that he failed to address the Scriptures that deal with the issue at hand.

I received a scathing email from Tony Silva regarding my last post, and although I make this correction,  the record speaks for itself.


judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

 


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