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Author Topic: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save  (Read 10478 times)

Bradley

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Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« on: November 11, 2003, 05:38:23 PM »
>>>Out of curiousity, I would like to ask you a question, what is the difference between preaching a salvation message that cannot save, during the GT period because there is no one left to save and can only bring judgment (true gospel)?

And;

The preaching of a salvation message that cannot save and mimics the true gospel, but has no power to save and can only bring judgment (false gospel)?

Please do not get offended at this question, if you do not want to answer it just ignore it, but I feel this is a legitament question about the conditions during the GT period.

1 Peter 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Tony S <<<


I started a new thread, so we could avoid getting off subject on the previous topic.

1 Corinthians 3:5-10
5   Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6   I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7   So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8   Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9   For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10   According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

I don't have any power to save anyone, but I will do what God has called me to do, and that is the teach and preach the "TRUTH" of God's Word.  Whether that TRUTH saves a soul or damns a soul is not up to me.  God is the one who provides the increase.  I am only a vessel used by the master to preach the gospel, the testimony of Jesus Christ.  A testimony which will not change.

Unlike yourself, I do not count myself as sufficient to know when God is done saving people, and I believe anyone with the fear of the Lord upon them would not be so bold as to declare such things.  It is a shame that I have to even address such concerns. 

What is the difference you ask.  Very simply: false gospels deny Christ.  They deny the power of Christ.  The gospel which I preach will always give glory to Christ.  I will always acknowledge the Jesus Christ as Lord and give him all the glory.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
5   Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17
14   Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15   For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16   To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17   For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Bradley

bloodstone

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2003, 06:22:00 PM »

Amen Bradley. I find it hard to believe myself that anyone who is a true christian would not understand our duty.

 1st Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

Erik Diamond

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2003, 07:40:56 PM »
Quote
>>>Out of curiousity, I would like to ask you a question, what is the difference between preaching a salvation message that cannot save, during the GT period because there is no one left to save and can only bring judgment (true gospel)?

And;

The preaching of a salvation message that cannot save and mimics the true gospel, but has no power to save and can only bring judgment (false gospel)?<<<

Honestly, do you think you know when Salvation has ended? If so, tell me when did it start? What month, day and year? Do you know the name of last Elect’s name and location when he or she has become part of God’s family?  Don’t tell me it would be sometimes in 1994.  My point is that NO MAN knows when

1.) Satan has been loosened (Rev 11:7)
2.) Great Tribulation has started (Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 13)
3.) Great Tribulation will end with Second Coming  (Mat 24:29)
4.) When the last Elect got saved. (Rev 9:4)

And then figure out how much time we might have left on earth with some numbers given in the bible.  You will not go anywhere with it.  

All we will know in regarding to timing of Christ’s return is by WATCHING.  We watch for “signs”.  Jesus has listed what we would expect during the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24.  And Jesus said,

Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

If we see all these things that Jesus warned about in Matthew 24, then we will know that we are living in a time that will witness Christ’s return…if we live long enough.  

We will see abomination of desolation. We will see love for truth grow cold in church. We will see rise of false prophets in church and television. We will hear people insist that Jesus is still with them in church or found in some fellowship after we warned them of their church’s apostasy.  If you do see or heard everything what Jesus warned, then be watchful until Christ’s return.   My point is that Jesus NEVER said that we should stop preaching gospel at all, once we entered Great Tribulation!

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We must preach gospel and allow God to use it as salvation or judgement for his purpose. Until the end.  It is our witnessing for the world.  And leave the rest up to God.  

Quite frankly, preaching the gospel is NOT useless, especially in this time of Great Tribulation.  

Listen to this… Noah, in his time, knew about the judgement and destruction while preparing a ship, yet he still PREACHED,  regardless!  God never told him to stop preaching because He warned Noah what He would plan to do with the unsaved world. Noah's preaching was “salvation”, but those who reject it receive as “judgement”. That will what we will do today.  

Erik Diamond
 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

andreas

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2003, 11:34:45 PM »
" For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". Hebrews 10:26-27
Sinners who are not elect will also hear the gospel.They are receiving the truth, but they will have nothing to do with it,since they are dead in their sins,and dead men can not understand the truth.As these people reject the truth they also reject heaven.Even if it was possible to know that all the elect are sealed, then you still have to preach the truth,so that judgement will fall on those who reject it.To answer your question, one deals with the truth while the other does not.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2003, 02:57:50 AM »
>>It is a shame that I have to even address such concerns.

Bradley,

I told you clearly you were under no obligation to answer, so if you did you did it for your own reasons.

>> I don't have any power to save anyone, but I will do what God has called me to do, and that is the teach and preach the "TRUTH" of God's Word.  Whether that TRUTH saves a soul or damns a soul is not up to me.  God is the one who provides the increase.  I am only a vessel used by the master to preach the gospel, the testimony of Jesus Christ.  A testimony which will not change.<<

Ah, but our testimony does change, it changes as our understanding of Biblical truth is honed by the Holy Spirit. Let me give you an example, you, like myself and almost every other Christian probably believed/preached at one time that God would be saving people till Christ returns. True or not? But after your spiritual understanding of the verses that teach that is not going to be the case, was opened up by the Holy Spirit, do we continue to teach this or do we change our testimony so that we are in harmony with the truth? God indeed has called His prophets to speak the truth, but truth is given us in small increments and not all at once.

Isaiah 28:9  Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The real test is are we going to be faithful to what we learn or are we going to reject what the Holy Spirit is teaching and fall back on what we thought was the truth.

Isaiah 28:13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

>>Unlike yourself, I do not count myself as sufficient to know when God is done saving people, and I believe anyone with the fear of the Lord upon them would not be so bold as to declare such things.  It is a shame that I have to even address such concerns. <<

As far as I can tell boldness was a virtue in the prophets, God did not pick prophets that were reeds shaken in the wind.

Matthew 11:7  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
   
Acts 19:8  And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Acts 9:29  And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Hebrews 13:6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

You see it takes boldness to go agains't the current beliefs of the day, so God enpowers His prophets with fearless abandon of what the opposition will do to them, it is by the strength of the Lord that they boldly declare what God wants declared.   

>>What is the difference you ask.  Very simply: false gospels deny Christ.  They deny the power of Christ.  The gospel which I preach will always give glory to Christ.  I will always acknowledge the Jesus Christ as Lord and give him all the glory.<<

Bradley, out of all the people that I have had the pleasure to discuss/debate with on this board (except Erik), I find you the most honest and sincere of the bunch, I cannot know your status with God, but from what I read from your posts I believe that you really have a concern for the truth, so please don't take this the wrong way. But the test of what is truth and false is not sincerity, giving Christ the glory, or acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord, even the heathen can do that.

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The real test is have we surrendered our wills to everything that the Bible teaches us as the Father's revealed will for us. One of the biggest stumbling blocks that I have seen sincere Christian people stumble on in the last few years is the teaching of salvation ending before the GT begins. People try every way they can to make the Bible say that salvation goes right on to the end of the world, because they sincerely wish that were the case. We simply cannot impose our wills over what God's will is, that is the bottom line.

Luke 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

These are not just words to be mouthed, our relationship to how we accept His Word, which is His revealed will, is going to show us if we have really surrendered our wills to Christ.

Tony S

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2003, 03:43:59 AM »
>>Honestly, do you think you know when Salvation has ended? If so, tell me when did it start? What month, day and year? Do you know the name of last Elect’s name and location when he or she has become part of God’s family?  Don’t tell me it would be sometimes in 1994.  My point is that NO MAN knows when

1.) Satan has been loosened (Rev 11:7)
2.) Great Tribulation has started (Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 13)
3.) Great Tribulation will end with Second Coming  (Mat 24:29)
4.) When the last Elect got saved. (Rev 9:4) <<


Erik,

I see you have jumped on the sarcasm band wagon, no need for that, I think we can discuss this without that?   
   
>>Quite frankly, preaching the gospel is NOT useless, especially in this time of Great Tribulation. <<

We do not need to know the day that the GT started, to know that the salvation of the elect is finished, the Bible is clear that the elect are sealed (saved) BEFORE the GT starts, so if we can know that we are in the GT period as you admit we can, then we know that no one is being saved. Your right about one thing the preaching of the gospel truth is never useless, but it must be the truth, to be effective.

>>And then figure out how much time we might have left on earth with some numbers given in the bible.  You will not go anywhere with it.  

All we will know in regarding to timing of Christ’s return is by WATCHING.<<


Who said anything about knowing the time of Christ's return?

>>We will see abomination of desolation. We will see love for truth grow cold in church. We will see rise of false prophets in church and television. We will hear people insist that Jesus is still with them in church or found in some fellowship after we warned them of their church’s apostasy.  If you do see or heard everything what Jesus warned, then be watchful until Christ’s return.  My point is that Jesus NEVER said that we should stop preaching gospel at all, once we entered Great Tribulation! <<

The gospel will be and is being preached during the GT period, only those that preach that God is bringing judgment will be correct and those preaching that God is bringing salvation will not be. That is the truth.

Revelation 14:6-7  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

You talk about seeing the signs and yet even if we see the signs we can't know? In that case of what use are the signs? If we are driving at a high rate of speed in the mountains and we begin to see signs that tell us there is a dangerous curb or a cliff up ahead,  do we say I'm not going to slow down because even though we see the signs, we can't know when were there until we see it? No of course not, the signs serve a very specific purpose, so that we CAN know what is ahead. Same thing with the signs and the GT period.

>>Listen to this… Noah, in his time, knew about the judgement and destruction while preparing a ship, yet he still PREACHED,  regardless!  God never told him to stop preaching because He warned Noah what He would plan to do with the unsaved world. Noah's preaching was “salvation”, but those who reject it receive as “judgement”. That will what we will do today.<<

We are in a very unique situation in our day, when Noah was preaching, even though God was going to destroy the world with the flood, it was still the day of salvation. But during the GT period that is not the case, it is a time like no other.

Matthew 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There was one similarity that we cannot overlook, that dispite his preaching, no one was saved out of the known world except those that were already part of the "family".

I hope this does not mean I have become your enemy, because we disagree on certain issues?

May God continue to bestow His blessings and wisdom upon you.

Tony S

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2003, 03:54:21 AM »
>>Amen Bradley. I find it hard to believe myself that anyone who is a true christian would not understand our duty.

1st Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: <<


Bloodstone,

Judging from your other post your duty seems to be to go around calling people names, if you disagree with them. Thank you for the verse about humility, some times we can be our own worst enemies.

Matthew 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Tony S

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2003, 07:51:57 AM »
Tony Silva,

I have the following comments and observations regarding  your 11/11 post to Bradley ...

Quote
Ah, but our testimony does change, it changes as our understanding of Biblical truth is honed by the Holy Spirit. Let me give you an example, you, like myself and almost every other Christian probably believed/preached at one time that God would be saving people till Christ returns. True or not? But after your spiritual understanding of the verses that teach that is not going to be the case, was opened up by the Holy Spirit, do we continue to teach this or do we change our testimony so that we are in harmony with the truth? God indeed has called His prophets to speak the truth, but truth is given us in small increments and not all at once.

Our testimony may change as we grow in Grace and understanding of the Bible.  But let’s make one thing very clear, the Truth itself never changes.  The truths of the Bible remain constant, in season and out of season.  What you’ve done here is confuse/mix the issue of ‘understanding’ with the issue of God’s Truths which, like God himself, do NOT change.

Mal 3:6
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Ps 111:5-8
5 He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant. ...
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. ...



Quote
The real test is are we going to be faithful to what we learn or are we going to reject what the Holy Spirit is teaching and fall back on what we thought was the truth.

That you would argue this question assumes a premise that you are the only one who is “faithful”  and who does not “reject what the Holy Spirit is teaching”.  Given that those who post here are like-minded in this crucial regard which goes to the heart of the Gospel, has it ever occured to you that you may be wrong?  

2 Tim 3:4-7
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Gal 1:6-8
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.



Quote
As far as I can tell boldness was a virtue in the prophets, God did not pick prophets that were reeds shaken in the wind.

You label it ‘boldness’ when expressing your views.  (Never mind that Bradley’s views were expressed not only boldly but forthrightly  -- having no need for manipulation, obscurity or guile).  

1 Thess 2:2-5
2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

2 Tim 4:2-5
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.



Quote
The real test is have we surrendered our wills to everything that the Bible teaches us as the Father's revealed will for us.

Amen to this.  Problem is, your view contradicts with what the Bible teaches as a whole, is built upon the lie that our testimony – namely the Gospel of Jesus Christ,  should be altered depending upon circumstances or signs of the times.  And  ‘surrender’ requires humility.  

Prov 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Matt 23:12
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

James 4:6-7
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.



Quote
One of the biggest stumbling blocks that I have seen sincere Christian people stumble on in the last few years is the teaching of salvation ending before the GT begins. People try every way they can to make the Bible say that salvation goes right on to the end of the world, because they sincerely wish that were the case. We simply cannot impose our wills over what God's will is, that is the bottom line.

You continue to make an issue of this, even though you well know that those here fully understand that God, according to HIS methods and timetable, will at some point prior to the final judgment (which may be years, days, or just hours before his return…. only God knows) seal all his elect, thus ending salvation.  Even this teaching is consistent with what the Bible ultimately teaches which is this:

Heb 3:15
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


Get it?  Nothing in God's Word is contradictory, or requires alteration, when rightly divided.  


Quote
Bradley, out of all the people that I have had the pleasure to discuss/debate with on this board (except Erik), I find you the most honest and sincere of the bunch, I cannot know your status with God, but from what I read from your posts I believe that you really have a concern for the truth, so please don't take this the wrong way. But the test of what is truth and false is not sincerity, giving Christ the glory, or acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord, even the heathen can do that.

Ps 32:2
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

1 Peter 2:1
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,



Paul,  having been taught in the desert for 3 years by God Himself, knew a great many things (Gal 1:15-19).  Yet, moved by the Holy Spirit, what does he passionately teach?

1 Cor 1:22-23, 27-29,31
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; …
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; ...
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Cor 2:1-5
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


I'm fully aware that, just as you've brushed aside everyone's testimony of Scriptures on this issue, you will brush this one aside.  I don't expect any serious contemplation or honest dialog, but rather I write this for the benefit of our newer and more vulnerable participants.

judy
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Bradley

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2003, 08:27:12 AM »
>>>But the test of what is truth and false is not sincerity, giving Christ the glory, or acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord, even the heathen can do that.<<<

I Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Bradley

Tony Warren

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2003, 09:27:42 AM »
>>>
Honestly, do you think you know when Salvation has ended? If so, tell me when did it start? What month, day and year? Do you know the name of last Elect’s name and location when he or she has become part of God’s family?  Don’t tell me it would be sometimes in 1994.  My point is that NO MAN knows when

1.) Satan has been loosened (Rev 11:7)
2.) Great Tribulation has started (Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 13)
3.) Great Tribulation will end with Second Coming  (Mat 24:29)
4.) When the last Elect got saved. (Rev 9:4)

I see you have jumped on the sarcasm band wagon, no need for that, I think we can discuss this without that?   
<<<

Interesting, since I don't think you have discussed anything since you started this mantra about how the gospel of salvation shouldn't be preached. The "fact" is, those are pertinent questions that are asked. As you well know, if you cannot tell us exactly when Salvation has ended, you cannot logically, rationally or righteously tell us that Salvation "has" ended. That's just plain common sense. It's dishonest to make one claim without knowing the other. To insist that salvation has ended today, and when someone asks you when it ended, you huff, bristle, cringe and reply:

 "I don't know, and it doesn't matter..",

..is rank foolishness (Proverbs 15:14). If you don't know when it ended, how do you know it has ended already? It is unbiblical to make such a claim that no one can now be saved, without solid and sound evidence. And as far as I can tell, this doctrine is of the church of Tony Silva, because no other Christians are preaching this. We know that neither consensus or majority opinion rules, but no one? That in itself should "at the very least" give one reason for pause.


Quote
>>>
You talk about seeing the signs and yet even if we see the signs we can't know? In that case of what use are the signs?
<<<

This is yet another round of flawed logic and faulty reasoning. It is not only possible, but clear that we both can and will see the signs of Christ's soon coming, but we will not know exactly when Christ will return and we will be caught up together with Him. That is made abundantly clear by Christ himself. And so "obviously" signs do not pinpoint the exact times, they are merely harbingers, foreshadowing what is to come. Exactly "WHEN" is God's business. So to say that because we see the signs, "therefore" we must know when all have been saved and no one else will be, is quite arrogant and disingenuous. And to ask what use are the signs is spurious.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
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Tony Warren

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2003, 09:56:10 AM »
>>>
>>It is a shame that I have to even address such concerns.

Bradley,
I told you clearly you were under no obligation to answer, so if you did you did it for your own reasons.
<<<

I think we are all under an obligation to speak out against professing Christians exalting themselves to the position of God so that they unequivocally imagine that they have the power to know that no one else in the world is being saved today, and that those still preaching the gospel are the same as False Prophets saying "Peace, Peace, when there is no Peace". Clearly, you are deceived in your beliefs that those faithful who preach the gospel in season and out should be equated with false prophets.


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But after your spiritual understanding of the verses that teach that is not going to be the case, was opened up by the Holy Spirit, do we continue to teach this or do we change our testimony so that we are in harmony with the truth? God indeed has called His prophets to speak the truth, but truth is given us in small increments and not all at once.
<<<

As far as I can tell, no other Christian is omniscient enough to know God won't save anyone else today. To my knowledge, you are the only one who is teaching that salvation is now impossible, and no one else in the world can be saved. So in essence what you are saying is that God has bestowed upon you, His prophet (singular) Tony Silva, to teach something that no other Christian knows about.

This without one "authoritative" passage from scripture that tells Christians to stop preaching the gospel of salvation. Christ is not in the desert, he is not in the secret chambers that He explains things only for Tony Silva to preach to the world. Christ is in Scripture, so show us where He speaks such a doctrine? That is your deception, not something that is gleaned from scripture.

Like every other false teaching, your doctrine adds and takes away from what the scriptures actually "SAY" and attempts to instruct us on what you believe they really "MEAN." You throw a lot of scriptures around with absolutely no reference or connection to the points you are attempting to make, and then say you confidently conclude, "SEE, I'm Right!" Just as your reference to the scriptures of those saying "Peace, Peace, when there is no peace" was referring to all the Christians who continue to preach the good news today. Obviously, that is a typical misuse and twisting of scripture. These passages don't prove your point, rather they speak against it as a witness to those preaching a gospel that is false. That is preaching peace in the midst of warfare. As if I were to say that we will be saved by our works. That would be my saying peace, peace, where there is no peace.

Isaiah 48:22
  • "There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked."

If I say there is peace in a false Church, I would be saying there is peace where there is no peace, but that would not mean that there is no peace anywhere in the world. So you are wrong in that.  I can only hope that no Christians are deceived by your doctrine to stop preaching the gospel of salvation today.


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Unlike yourself, I do not count myself as sufficient to know when God is done saving people, and I believe anyone with the fear of the Lord upon them would not be so bold as to declare such things.  It is a shame that I have to even address such concerns. <<

As far as I can tell boldness was a virtue in the prophets, God did not pick prophets that were reeds shaken in the wind
<<<

What do you mean? Contrasting that you speak in boldness, while Bradley speaks in what? These clever tactics are not an honest debating style, rather it is cloaked deceit. There is a great difference between the boldness of the prophets divinely inspired and saying, "Thus saith the Lord", and arrogance of modern day wanna-be prophets, saying, "thus saith the Lord, when the Lord hath not said." If the Lord has told you in a dream there is now no more salvation, then you are in trouble because you have added to God's word. If the Lord has not told you miraculously that no one else is being saved today, then you have added to God's word, because you say this is so. When nowhere in scripture does God give an exact date when salvation will end and when we should cease to preach salvation, that's your private interpretation. If the Lord has stated in Scripture that we shall know the day when salvation will end and we must stop preaching salvation, then I am taking away from the word of God and am subject to the plagues.

So while you joy in painting yourself the lone prophet and much-persecuted martyr, the fact is, if you cannot give the date salvation ended, you cannot "righteously" declare this is a date now when salvation has ended. The truth is found in the report of the Scriptures, not in the words of men saying give up for no one can be saved anymore. 

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12
  • "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  • And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

We have been warned, beware of those saying Thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said.


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Hebrews 13:6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

You see it takes boldness to go agains't the current beliefs of the day, so God enpowers His prophets with fearless abandon of what the opposition will do to them, it is by the strength of the Lord that they boldly declare what God wants declared.   
<<<

...you mean as Jim Jones was empowered a singular prophet of his own god, prophesying that it was time for all God's servants to go home. Yet it wasn't so! The man was deceived and delusional and would not receive the truth in love, and those who followed him believed a lie. It was because of his vanity, pride, arrogance, lack of humility, and is egotistical desire to be some singular great prophet who was perceived persecuted by everyone else. Yes, the man was convinced in his own mind that he had the truth and that all things were therefore justifiable. Dishonesty, hypocrisy, and even murder.


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One of the biggest stumbling blocks that I have seen sincere Christian people stumble on in the last few years is the teaching of salvation ending before the GT begins.
<<<

There you go again. That's not the point, though you are trying desperately to confuse the issue by making it the point. Many people here believe salvation will end (as you well know) and so again, this is another spurious comment. The time of salvation does end, but that is in God's good time, not yours. Actually I have heard many "sincere" Christians preach that salvation goes right up until the day of the end, and I have heard many "sincere" Christians preach that salvation ends not long before Christ's return, but I have heard "ONLY YOU" preach that you know when salvation has ended and right now there is no more chance for salvation of anyone today. ..That is pride and arrogance and has nothing to do with God ending salvation at some time. There are a great many here who believe salvation ends well before Christ's return, but what "YOU" teach is another doctrine entirely.


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Luke 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

These are not just words to be mouthed, our relationship to how we accept His Word, which is His revealed will, is going to show us if we have really surrendered our wills to Christ.
Tony s
<<<

Ironic that one who has spent years here rejecting clear unadulterated scriptures presented to him by many Christians, would scold someone who unabashedly accepts God's word and revealed will.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Gilda

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2003, 02:02:47 PM »
Am I understanding this right? That he thinks that preaching salvation today is useless because no one on earth can be saved anymore? Is this correct?


Erik Diamond

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2003, 04:06:48 PM »
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Am I understanding this right? That he thinks that preaching salvation today is useless because no one on earth can be saved anymore? Is this correct?

Gilda,

No! Tony might liked you to believe othewise. Tony believed we should not preach salvation anymore now, just because he 'knows' when God have finished sealing his people (Rev 9:4).  He thought why bother trying to get anyone getting saved after God have sealed all of His people.  He got no single scripture to back his postion up. God never told Tony, or anyone that matter, "Now I have sealed all of my people and loosen Satan to bring judgement upon church, you may rest from preaching or witnessing gospel becasue there won't be any more to save".  I say, God forbids!

This man also compare true Christians with those people who cried, "Peace, peace, when there is no peace".  In my humble oponion, Tony Silva misunderstood or misinterpreted scripture to fit his own doctrine.

I pray that all Children of God should contiune preach gospel to the world until the end, despite Great Tribulation.  And allow God worry about the rest.  We are only a vessel of God, witnessing HIS word, and the Holy Spirit will deal with the result.

As for me and my house, we will contiune to study and witness the Gospel unto the end of time. Yes, I personally believe there will be a short period of 'no salvation' and Great Tribulation. Timing of these things are God's business.  We just won't be able to pinpoint when it started and when it will end.  We only saw the 'signs' that Jesus warned in Matthew 24, Luke 21, etc.  That is all God allowed us to know in regarding to His coming.  Remember Fig Tree!

Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus gave us an example that when we see Fig tree or all those trees putteth forth new leaves because it was spring time when Jesus gave this sermon.  Understanding this, Jesus said that we will "mentally" know that summer is near.  LIKEWISE, when we "see" all these things that Jesus outlined in Matthew 24 during the Great Tribulation, then we will "mentally" know that His Coming is near.  That is ALL!  

And, guess what, there is no SINGLE verse in bible that commanded us to stop preaching 'salvation' gospel anytime during the history of mankind, including 'unique' period called Great Tribulation!

Peace,
Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2003, 04:28:40 PM »
Quote
>>Listen to this… Noah, in his time, knew about the judgement and destruction while preparing a ship, yet he still PREACHED,  regardless!  God never told him to stop preaching because He warned Noah what He would plan to do with the unsaved world. Noah's preaching was “salvation”, but those who reject it receive as “judgement”. That will what we will do today.<<

We are in a very unique situation in our day, when Noah was preaching, even though God was going to destroy the world with the flood, it was still the day of salvation. But during the GT period that is not the case, it is a time like no other.

Matthew 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
.

Then how do you explain what Jesus said:

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What is different between Noah's time and our time?

God did not seal or save any more people after Noah and his family, didn't He? If He did, there should be ninth or more person in the Ark. My point is that Noah still preached gospel regardless but none will receive it.  Same thing today, we will still preach gospel, but none will receive it. Why? Because they were NOT sealed by God and are under attack of the locusts (Rev 9). They will hear our gospel and if they don't have the seal of God, they will not receive it. Great Tribulation is greater because there are none left with seal of God to save and that Satan has been loosened with all his mighty until God cut Great Tribulation short for our sake.

Peace,
Erik Diamond
 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Silva

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Re: Preaching a Salvation Message at a Time that it Cannot Save
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2003, 07:26:10 PM »
>>Am I understanding this right? That he thinks that preaching salvation today is useless because no one on earth can be saved anymore? Is this correct?<<

Gilda,

If I may explain my position without the benifit of the soothsayer's commentary.

What I believe is that the Bible clearly teaches that salvation will be finished before the start of the GT period. The question that arises is, can we know when we are in the GT period? If you listen to some people around here we will never know if we are in GT or not. But if you listen to the Bible, you will see that we can and will know. Now by simple deduction, if we can know that we are in the GT period and the sealing of the elect is finished before it starts, what is the only conclusion that we can arrive at?

Those people that want to bury their heads in the sand and say we can't know that we are in the GT period, therefore we can't know that the sealing of the elect is finished are deceiving themselves.

Matthew 24:15  When ye therefore shall [Bsee[/B] the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This verse is set in the GT context, although the soothsayers would have you believe that it could be talking about any time in the history of the church, but be that as it may, it says when we "see" the abomination standing in the holy place, we are to flee. That means that we will UNDERSTAND that it is time to flee (run don't walk) the defiled churches and congregations. This will coincide with the loosing of Satan, when he takes his seat in and begins to rule in the "temple of God".

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Notice in both passages there is an expectation by God that we will "KNOW" or "SEE" that these things are happening. The coming of Christ will not happen until when? Until the "man of sin" is REVEALED! Does that sound like we can't know we are in the GT period to you?

Luke 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The reason the soothsayers will say that we can't know is that they do not want to know for reasons known only to them, but if you believe Jesus, we will know. We have to make a choice, do we believe the soothsayers or do we believe the Word of God?

Luke 17:22-23  And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

Jeremiah 6:14  They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Amos 5:13  Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.

Amos 3:6-7  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?  Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

As for me, I believe God's Word.

Tony S

 


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