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Author Topic: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism  (Read 26641 times)

Robert Powell

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2003, 11:25:55 AM »
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What  pessimism?  I'm  having  the  time  of  my  life  being  an  amillennialist!  Nothing  brings  more  joy  than  knowing  the  truth  even  if  it's  not  to  everybody's  liking.

Thank You! I'm so tired of hearing this "Pessimism" line. It's in almost every postmillennial article by every author. What a load of rotten bananas. That is such a lie.

 Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 They don't seem to know what pessimism is.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2003, 10:30:10 AM »
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Tony and Company,
The Scriptures clearly teach that the gospel is to exercise a real influence over all tribes of the human race, and that it will be more extensive and transforming than any ever realized before.
<<<

Acts 10:34-35
  • "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
  • But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

The gospel has been (not will be) exercising a real influence over all people of the human race, as this is even near worldwide 2003 of the year of our Lord. The gospel has been preached to every nation, but not every nation (or people) will hear it. Let me ask you. Do you think that the gospel from Christ's death untill now was not exercising a real influence over all the tribes of the world? All that were "chosen" before the foundation of the world from every nation to be saved, have been saved. Not one that was predestinated to be saved, from the cross until now has been lost or was missed by Christ's messengers. That was the great commission given to the church, was it not? We were sent into all the world to make disciples, and since Christ's death that has been done effectively by the church. Unless the teaching of Postmillennialism is intended to imply that Christianity hasl been nothing but a failure for the last 2000 years, then this has to be a given. If not, then this whole "future optimism thingy" is really spurious and self-serving. Our task has always been to be a shinning light to the world "reflecting" the work of Christ in that darkness. Our task was "never" to go make the world a light (as implied by Postmillennial dreams of a golden age of world Christianization), but to shine as a light in this world of darkness. Thus Postmillennialism errs not only in its assumptions, but also in its basic premise. And so of course its conclusions will be skewed if its assumptions are incorrect. The Postmillennarian doesn't "seem" to understand this most basic of Christian precepts. That we are a light "IN" a world of darkness. That we are wheat in the midst of tares. That we are as waters on the barren and thirsty ground. As such, we should know that the trying of our faith "by tribulation in this world" worketh patience (James 1:3). It's not pessimism, it's part of our lot in life being at enmity with the world. God didn't promise anyone a golden age of world Christianity, he promised us tribulation in the world. And His is alwaus a "faithful" promise.

Philippians 2:15
  • "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

That's what our Lord was saying in John 16:33, "in the world ye shall have tribulation." He never promised anyone that the world would see a golden age of righteousness except in Christ Jesus's death and resurrection. What he promised was that the world would be trouble to those who were saved, and that we should "expect" that. Will God receive the same spurious charge as we, that He is a pessimist? Or is that God's working that He may test or try the Saint's patience? Prove all Things!


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I'm not saying Christ isn't reigning now. We know that Christ is king now, we know that Christ reigns now. That's not at issue.
<<<

On the contrary I believe that it is at issue, and perhaps at the "heart" of the issue. Because if Christ is indeed reigning in His millennial Kingdom now, and has bound Satan at the cross (which most Postmillennialists that I debate also believe--including yourself), then the issue of a future golden age reign is a non sequitur, and the name "post-millennial" is a misnomer. You cannot have Christ coming back post (or after the) millennial reign of Christ except for judgment, and have the binding of Satan (at the start of the millennium as per Revelation 20) be at the cross. It makes no sense. For the binding of Satan is what starts the Millennial reign. Thus exactly "when" the Millennial reign or golden age of righteousness when Christ reigns and there is the prophesied peace and spiritual prosperity "IS" at issue. The time of Satan's binding is at issue because it is his binding that brings this time of peace, safety, spiritual prosperity and righteousness to the nations as recorded in Revelation 20. The Millennial reign of Christ is the "meat" of the issue. Why do you think Postmillennialism and Amillennialism is two very different doctrines if they are both the same? I can certainly understand why Postmillennialists would not want it to be an issuem because it so devastates their doctrines of a future glorious reign if Christ is already gloriously reigning in the millennial Kingdom now If He's already brought the prophesied Peace and Righteousness to the world. If He's already brought the prophesied righteousness to the world.. If He's already brought the prophesied victory against the gates of the enemy and spiritual prosperity..

Luke 19:38-40
  • "Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
  • And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
  • And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."
Luke 2:13-14
  • "And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
  • Glory to God in the highest, and on earth Peace, good will toward men."

Glory to God, Peace in Heaven, Peace on earth, Christ established His Kingship, Good will or spiritual prosperity towards men, etc., etc. I mean, just what prophecies are the Postmillennarians still waiting to be fulfilled concerning Christ's peace and righteous reign? Has not Christ established His kingdom and brought Peace to the earth? Was that Peace insufficient for their need? Was that establishment of a Kingdom a failure that has to be corrected sometime in the future by another, a golden age, "lest man label it pessimism?"God forbid!

Zechariah 1:16-17
  • "Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
  • Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem."

Postmillennialists joy in using passages of Prosperity and Peace and Righteousness as things which must yet be fulfilled, but the "truth" of the matter is, in context, comparing scripture with scripture, rightly dividing the Word of truth, we will see that this comfort of Zion and all these passages have been fulfilled in the first advent of Christ. Hasn't the Lord already comforted Jerusalem as per the prophecy, and His cities in spiritual prosperity spread abroad? Absolutely!

Isaiah 40:1-3
  • "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
  • Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

Does not "her warfare accomplished" or completed signal a cessation of warfare or peace? And it says comfort ye "My People," not everyone (or near everyone) in the world but His people of Holy Jerusalen. The world's prosperity has come, its comfort has come. But not for the world, but for those who have been chosen jews out of the world.

Matthew 1:21
  • "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His People from their sins."

Was His purpose to save the world, or was His purpose to save His people of the World? So again, what alleged prophesies are postmillennialists waiting for to be fulfilled? If it's not at issue when Christ bound Satan (the beginning of the millennial or thousand year reign), then it shouldn't be an issue of when Christ's fulfilling His reign in Peace, Righteousness, and Prosperity for the world. ..or when the Kingdom is spread abroad.


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You should read the book "Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope," by Keith A. Mathison.
<<<

If those of the church spent half the time they spend reading the vaunted popular authors, reading and studying what the word of God itself actually says, I'm convinced we wouldn't have fifty different versions of Eschatology floating around. The problem is one of tradition, and of listening to the words of men over the unadulterated words of scripture. For example, the eschatology of Dispensationalism cropped up like a choking vine "primarily" because of one author (scofield) placing his words in the margins of the Bible. And now it is one of the most popular unbiblical Eschatologies in Christiandom. Why? Because people like their ears tickled by man's desires, intrigues, genealogies, fables, vanities and visions of golden ages. But it ain't necessarily so. No matter how Holy men's words may "appear" to be, we are to commanded to hear and hold to the word of God over them. A principle illustrated by God Himself many different times:

Matthew 17:4-5
  • "Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
  • While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

Moses was not the Authority, Elias was not the authority, and likewise neither is Calvin, Tony Warren, or the Pope can be our authority on truth. The word of the Living God is the ultimate authority. When you h or listen to it, you Hear God.

Ever wonder why almost all books and articles defending Postmillennialism are filled with either "misapplied" scriptures which are already fulfilled, or with speculation and "name dropping," and wrapped around very little "actual" sound exegesis? It's because these books have to be filled with something in "lieu" of Biblical justification for expecting the world to become somewhat Christianized before Christ's second advent. i.e., they defer to others. In other words,  "Loraine Boettner said it this way," or "Greg L. Bahnsen put it this way," or "Jack Van Deventer wrote concerning the other," or "Keith A. Mathison explains it perfectly this way," and so on and so forth. Godly men defer to scripture. Show me a man who in context, quotes or bears witness to God word for word in exegesis by comparing scripture with scripture, and I'll show you a man who's ultimate authority is most likely God and not man.

What Christians should want to hear is, "what does the Bible say?" Or "how does a Postmillennial eschatology measure up against what God says about the end times." Or "How do their Scriptures (few that there are) purporting to prove Postmillennialism stand up in the light of the whole Bible?"  How is Satan bound at the beginning of the thousand years, that be the time of the cross, and yet golden age reign of Prosperity and Peace still be future?" I don't want to read a book about how pessimistic Amillennialism is (as if ad hominem attacks proves Postmillennialism), I want to hear scriptures that actually proves Postmillennialism. As good faithful stewards of Christian doctrine, we should not think that this is too much to ask.


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it will help you deal with your pessimism.
<<<

Exhibit A - Case in point.
How does this comment in lieu of Scripture or exegesis prove Postmillennialism? The only thing that it truly shows, is how insecure the Postmillennarian is. You see our hope is not in a near Christianized world, but in agreement with God's word of accomplishment, our hope is for the gathering of the Chosen out of the world. Not of making the whole world chosen.

James 2:5
  • "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

These are the heirs of the Kingdom of Christ, not everyone or near everyone in the world. These are honest "Doctrines of Sovereign Grace," and are grounded in the realization that God has chosen a remnant. Optimism and pessimism are just words. But Grace and Hope, these are the words of God of a select and chosen people. They don't seek to divide, they speak of a already indivisible body, which is not born out of a golden age near the end of time, but the golden age of the New Covenant confirmed in blood when Christ went to the cross and established the New Covenant age.

Titus 3:7
  • "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Grace and hope as God defines it, not as Postmillennialists do. Likewise, Prosperity and righteousness brought to the wilderness of the world as God defines it, not as Postmillennialists do.


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We believe that the power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel, will increase dramatically, and the great weight of nations will then submit to Christ at some time in the future.
<<<

The "increase" is provided by God now. The power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel has been bringing in the increase since Christ and the Apostles. Your words of a "dramatic increase in the future" is not part of the word of God, it's a addendum. The increase is not future, it is now and is continually been since the cross. That's not pessimism, that's truth.

1t Corinthians 3:6-7
  • "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
  • So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."

Here is when and how that power of the Spirit went forth in the church to bring a great increase from all the world, according to God's word.

Acts 1:8
  • "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

There is your power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel to every nation providing a increase from the uttermost parts of the earth. It's not future, it's a done deal, instituted by the death and resurrection of Christ.


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The victory will be Christ's.
<<<

Will Be? The Victory "WAS" Christ's!  And because of the faith of Christ in us, we have that victory as well.

1st Corinthians 15:57
  • "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
1st John 5:4-5
  • "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
  • Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Those are God's words, not mine. And this is the acftual realized victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Not the fable of a victory in Christianizing the world, the true faithful victory of just how the church overcomes the world. One saint at a time. It's been a marathon race for the church, not a end time sprint.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.  -2nd Corinthians 2:14"

Tony Warren

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2003, 11:02:14 AM »
>>>
Thank You! I'm so tired of hearing this "Pessimism" line. It's in almost every postmillennial article by every author. What a load of rotten bananas. That is such a lie.

 Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Agreed. But know that there is a "reason" that you keep hearing that "Pessimism Line" in most of the arguments for Postmillennialism. The reason is, what else is there? There is no actual textual support beside the misapplied prophesies we've already addressed. The charge of Pessimism is the proverbial "Straw Man" Argument, set up in lieu of debunking what our actual belief is, in order for them to have at least something to knock down. In this Straw man fallacy, the Amillennarian arguments are deliberately distorted or misrepresented in a way that they feel will win them support (ad populum) for their position by distraction. Because no one wants to go with a group that is defeatist or Pessimistic about the Kingdom.  ::)  In simple terms, it is the dishonest approach to defending one's own eschatology.

2nd Corinthians 8:21
  • "Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men."

Not only is it ignoble, but this tactic is really because in truth there isn't much meat on the Postmillennial plate, and these types of supplements are designed to influence "humanistic reasoning," rather than by careful exegesis of scripture, reason together. We can only pray that some Christians are granted to be "wiser" than to fall for that.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Gilda

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2003, 04:24:15 AM »
Tony and Company,
 You don't seem to understand. We hold that the victory of the Church will not become a reality until christians wake up and begin to apply theonomy to every area of their life, including the Civil Magistrate. Postmillennialism is a dominion eschatology in that we believe that the church will have supreme authority, govern territory, and dominate the nations. We believe that when scripture speaks of spiritual prosperity, it means it.

The fact of the matter is, only a Postmillennial eschatology will provide the biblical purpose, model, and motivation for a gospel victory in the world.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:18-20

If you don't like the word pessimism, then you should start thinking like us, that the Church will succeed. And the only way it can succeed is to Christianize the world. Because any Social Action that attempts to impose a Christian political-order on a non-Christian population is doomed to failure. Only by instituting theonomy and reconstruction can the nations be changed and made righteous.

As Postmillennialists, we hold to an Eschatology of Victory, not one of defeat. As we see in matthew 28, the Church is promised success in her efforts to make the nations Christian.

Rebel

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2003, 12:30:08 PM »
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You don't seem to understand. We hold that the victory of the Church will not become a reality until christians wake up and begin to apply theonomy to every area of their life, including the Civil Magistrate. Postmillennialism is a dominion eschatology in that we believe that the church will have supreme authority, govern territory, and dominate the nations. We believe that when scripture speaks of spiritual prosperity, it means it.
    Oh  I  understand  you  now.  How  arrogant  to  think  that  a  kingdom  has  to  be  dominant  and  conquering  or  it's  no  kingdom  at  all!  I  see  nothing  in  Matthew  28  that  supports  that.  Jesus  was  talking  about  the  spreading  of  the  gospel,  the  establishment  of  His  spiritual  kingdom.  He  has  succeeded  at  that.  Nowhere  does  the  scripture  show  that  He  seeks  to  set  up  a  kingdom  in  this  world.

     "Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."  

   
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The fact of the matter is, only a Postmillennial eschatology will provide the biblical purpose, model, and motivation for a gospel victory in the world.
    The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  you  have  your  priorities  all  mixed  up!  You  seem  to  think  that  the  purpose  of  the  gospel  is  to  save  souls  and  "Christianize  the  world."  That's  what  you  say  and  other  postmils  say  and  more  churches  than  you  can  count  say  that.  I  say . . .
     LIE!  It  is  a  lie!  We  do  not  preach  the  gospel  to  Christianize  the  world.  We  do  not  preach  the  gospel  to  save  souls.  The  purpose  of  the  gospel  is  to  glorify  God  and  God  alone!  Our  mission  has  never  been  to  evangelize  people.  God  has  already  taken  care  of  that  from  the  foundation  of  the  world.  God  may  use  us  to  bring  in  His  harvest  but  that  is  not  our  focus.  Our  focus,  the  reason  we  preach,  the  reason  we  do  anything,  live,  breathe,  is  all  to  the  Glory  of  God.  Take  the  focus  off  this  earth  and  off  the  nations  of  the  world  and  off  ourselves  and  put  it  all  on  the  Lord  because  we  preach  the  gospel  for  Him.    
     
     "1Co 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. "
     You  are  seeking  great  things  for  the  church,  a  time  and  an  age  where  we  reign  supreme.  Somehow  we're  out  there  spreading  the  word  so  we  can  save  people  and  eventually  conquer  the  world.  You  say  only  postmil  eschatology  will  provide  a  purpose  for  a  gospel  victory  in  the  world?  That  wasn't  the  point  of  the  gospel  anyway!  Why  do  you  insist,  like  the  Jews,  that  the  Victory  has  to  be  won  by  rule  over  our  enemies  and  a  kingdom  the  entire  world  can  see?  Seekest  thou  great  things  for  thyself?  Seek  them  not!  (Jeremiah 45:5a.)

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    If you don't like the word pessimism, then you should start thinking like us, that the Church will succeed. And the only way it can succeed is to Christianize the world
    If  we  all  started  thinking  like  you,  we'd  have  an  awful  lot  of  free  space  between  our  ears!  The  church  has  succeeded---  in  spreading  the  gospel  to  all  nations!  It  is  not  necessary  to  "Christianize" the  world.  Our  focus  should  never  be  on  the  world,  but  on  God.  Don't  you  see?  It's  all  about  Him!
     
   
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As Postmillennialists, we hold to an Eschatology of Victory, not one of defeat. As we see in matthew 28, the Church is promised success in her efforts to make the nations Christian.


     No,  your  eschatology  is  one  of  defeat  because  the  Scripture  has  cooked  it!  A  refuted  doctrine  is  a  defeated  doctrine.  Postmil  is  an  eschatology  of  pride,  it  appeals  to  man's  ego.  It  makes  the  church  supreme  and  gives  Christians  a  sense  of  satisfaction.  This  is  just  my  opinion  here  but  it  seems  that  everything  you have  said  about  postmillennialism  so  far  reeks  with  pride.
      There  was  no  promise  in  Matthew  28  that  we  will  succeed  in  making  the  nations  Christian.  There  was  only  a  command:  preach  the  gospel.  
      We  are  not  saying  there  is  no  victory.  There  is  a  Victory  and  it  has  already  come!  If  we  follow  postmil  eschatology,  the  victory  becomes  the  church's.  If  we  follow  the  Bible,  the  Victory  is  Christ's!  

     Grace  be  with  you  all,
                                           Rebel  <><
Until  you  find  something  worth  dying  for,  you're  not  really  living.

     "Deo  Valente"

Bradley

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2003, 03:03:25 PM »
Gilda,

You are denying the power of Christ's kingdom which is in the present!  His dominion is now, and by grace we have been brought into this kingdom.

Ephesians 1:18-23
18   The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19   And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20   Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21   Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22   And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23   Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


Romans 8:31-37
31   What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32   He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33   Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34   Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35   Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36   As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37   Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

You need to take your eyes and thoughts off this world and look to the author and finisher of our faith who has already blessed us with all things which pertain to life and godliness.

1 Corinthians 2:12
12   Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Colossians 2:8
8   Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2 Peter 1:3-4
3   According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 John 2:15-17
15   Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16   For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17   And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Bradley


Gilda

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2003, 08:31:08 AM »
The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  you  have  your  priorities  all  mixed  up!  You  seem  to  think  that  the  purpose  of  the  gospel  is  to  save  souls  and  "Christianize  the  world."  

No, that's what the bible says rebel. Will you rebel against that?

 Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

The gospel is the power unto salvation. You'd do well to remember that and not say that's not what it's for. I have my priorities straight.

 John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

 The purpose of the gospel is to save souls. So you are wrong on this point.

Gilda

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2003, 08:33:22 AM »
Gilda,

You are denying the power of Christ's kingdom which is in the present!  His dominion is now, and by grace we have been brought into this kingdom.

How am I denying that? I'm saying that his kingdom will expand and grow and become greater than ever. You are denying it's growth and prosperity in the future.

 Matthew 13:31-32 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

So is the pessimism wrong, or my optimism that this tree will indeed grow to be the greatest and biggest in the future?

Gilda

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2003, 08:36:03 AM »
When will Christians begin to realize that if our eventual goal is to have this country once again governed by Biblical Law, then the world has to be converted to Christianity by the Holy Spirit. It is only then that they will submit to the Word of God and bring about this golden age.

As Postmillennial great theologian Rushdoony said.

 "without the work of the Holy Spirit, working through the preaching of the Word to produce conversion, we cannot expect a lasting Christian Society."

You have to understand this optimism for the future is the basis of postmillennial christianity.

 Romans 10:14-17 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
 

Bradley

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2003, 09:46:02 AM »
You don't seem to understand. We hold that the victory of the Church will not become a reality until christians wake up and begin to apply theonomy to every area of their life, including the Civil Magistrate. Postmillennialism is a dominion eschatology in that we believe that the church will have supreme authority, govern territory, and dominate the nations. We believe that when scripture speaks of spiritual prosperity, it means it.

I take this statement you said to mean you do not think Christ has dominion today, or that his kingdom is presently reigning?  You can't have it both ways.  Either he is reigning today with dominion, or he will be reigning in the future with dominion.  I believe Ephesians 1:18-23 clearly teaches Christ has the dominion in the present and thus we should not be looking for a future dominion.  By teaching a future dominion, you are denying the power of God in the present.

Bradley

GoldRush

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2003, 03:12:09 PM »
Gilda,

As Postmillennial great theologian Rushdoony said.

"without the work of the Holy Spirit, working through the preaching of the Word to produce conversion, we cannot expect a lasting Christian Society."


What Scripture is this statement based upon?

"Society" does not equate with "Kingdom," you know.

Societies are earthly, and temporal, made up of mortal men, but the Kingdom of God is spiritual and heavenly and made up of the Elect of God.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an unnumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."  Hebrews 12:22-24

A man who proclaims that God promises anything other or anything less than the heavenly Kingdom as revealed in Scripture, preaches a false gospel.

J&R

GoldRush
". . Without Me, you can do nothing."
  John 15:5

Rebel

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2003, 06:53:04 PM »
     So  pleasant  to  hear  from  you  again,  Gilda.

Quote
No, that's what the bible says rebel. Will you rebel against that?

     Don't  mind  if  I  do!  That  isn't  what  the  Bible  says.  That's  how  you  interpret  it  and  you  bet  I'll  rebel  against  that!

     
Quote
The gospel is the power unto salvation. You'd do well to remember that and not say that's not what it's for.

     And  you'd  do  well  to  read  the  scriptures  in  their  proper  context.

     Romans  1:7-16:
"Rom 1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:8  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Rom 1:10  Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Rom 1:11  For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Rom 1:12  That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
Rom 1:13  Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Rom 1:14  I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Rom 1:15  So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
     In  the  purple  text,  you  see  that  Paul  is  addressing  those  who  were  beloved  of  God,  called  to  be  saints.  It  seems  that  God  has  already  done  salvation  work  in  these  people's  lives  because  their  faith  has  earned  a  reputation  around  the  world.  Paul  goes  on  to  explain  how  he'd  wanted  to  pay  a  visit  to  the  Roman  Christians  but  had  work  to  do  in  other  places.  Then  in  the  blue  text  he  says  he  can  finally  come  and  preach  the  gospel  to  them.  Preach  the  gospel?!!  But  they've  already  been  saved!  What  would  be  the  purpose  of  that?
     Context  is  something  that  should  always  be  considered.  It  is  very  important.  As  Tony  Warren  once  said,  "Context,  context,  context!!"
     We  do  not  preach  the  gospel  to  save  souls.  God  took  care  of  that  from  the  foundation  of  the  world.

     Eph 1:3  "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

     Since  God  has  already  saved  His  elect  from  the  foundation  of  the  world,  the  purpose  of  the  gospel  cannot  be  to  save  souls!  It  is  a  light  shining  in  the  world  that  can  be  used  to  bring  some  to  salvation.  But  that  is  not  its  sole  purpose.  God  used  a  donkey  to  keep  Baal  from  cursing  Israel  but  is  the  purpose  of  donkeys  to  pull  people  over  to  the  side  of  the  road?   :o
     Whether  it  pleases  the  Lord  to  use  our  testimony  to  save  people  isn't  the  point.  I've  said  it  before  and  I'll  say  it  again:  the  sole  purpose  of  the  gospel  is  to  glorify  the  Lord.  Sorry,  we  don't  do  it  for  the  people  of  this  world.  We  do  it  for  the  Lord,  the  Lord,  and  only  the  Lord!  The  focus  must  always  be  placed  on  Him!

   
Quote
I have my priorities straight.

     Saith  the  one  with  toasted  doctrine!

     Gilda,  fix  your  eyes  upon  the  Lord.  His  victory  is  high  above  kingdoms  and  countries,  governments  and  people.  Those  things  will  pass  away  but  Christ  is  forever.

     Turn  your  eyes  upon  Jesus,
     Look  full  in  His  wonderful  face,
     And  the  things  of  earth  will  grow  strangely  dim,
     In  the  light  of  His  glory  and  grace.


     Grace  be  with  you  all,
                                           Rebel  <><
     
     

Until  you  find  something  worth  dying  for,  you're  not  really  living.

     "Deo  Valente"

Jeff

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2003, 09:41:56 AM »
I take this statement you said to mean you do not think Christ has dominion today, or that his kingdom is presently reigning?  You can't have it both ways.  Either he is reigning today with dominion, or he will be reigning in the future with dominion.  

I agree Bradley. Christ either has dominion now, or his reign in dominion is future. But Postmils never answer the many contradictions that many here have brought up.

 Revelation 1:6
 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 Ephesians 1:20-23
  "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

We believe it, or we don't believe it. But not both.

Peterg

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2003, 08:06:40 PM »
Postmillennialism seems to have been misrepresented here.

Christ has dominion NOW. By dominion postmils mean Satan has been bound and the Gospel can be spread (Rev. 20:1). The strong man (the devil) is tied and his house (the world) can be pillaged (Matt. 12:29). There is no contradiction?

Someone likened Postmillennialism to Premillennialism, actually Amilliennialism is closer. Amills and Postmills both believe the kingdom is now. Both believe the 2nd Advent will usher in one general judgment and resurrection and finally the eternal state.

The only difference is the nature of the reign.  Postmills believe the kingdom will grow and expand (the seed and bread parables have been cited numerously) until one day their will be a great world wide revival- many will be converted but not all (there will still be tares but remember it is a WHEAT field NOT a TARE field Matt 13:24 bb. warfield). When the mandate is fulfilled, his enemies his footstool (Heb 10:13), Jesus Christ will return triumphantly!
Amills believe we will go out and spread the Gospel but to no avail. There will be some representative conversions in all the nations but only a very tiny remnant and believers will suffer until the return of Christ. That doesn't sound like much of a dominion :(. I think it would be more appropriate to ask the amill, "is Christ presently reigning".

Postmills believe the Gospel will prevail, and all nations will surrender to Christ but of course not without tribulation.  Greg Bahnsen compares it to World War II. In WWII we fought the Germans, many men died, there was rationing, etc. but we still beat the Hun! So you see, Christians will suffer... but suffer onto VICTORY!!!

The Scripture that really sold me was Isa 11:9:
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.

As the waters cover the SEA- how much does the water cover the sea?

GoldRush

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2003, 12:42:59 AM »
peterg,

Amills believe we will go out and spread the Gospel but to no avail.


Nonsense.  Amils believe the Gospel will be preached and the spiritual Kingdom of God will be built.  And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.  (Matt. 16:18)


Postmills believe the Gospel will prevail, and all nations will surrender to Christ but of course not without tribulation.  


Postmils expect and teach a temporal (political) kingdom, not the heavenly Kingdom of God.



The only difference is the nature of the reign.  


That's correct.  Post-mils mistakenly teach about a supposed earthly reign that is temporal in nature,
but Amils teach the spiritual, heavenly, and eternal nature of the Kingdom of God.

"Jesus answered, 'My Kingdom is not of this world. . .'"
John 18:36a

all nations will surrender to Christ but of course not without tribulation.  


The Scripture that really sold me was Isa 11:9

Isaiah 11:9 does not teach what you believe and purport at all.



J&R



GoldRush
". . Without Me, you can do nothing."
  John 15:5

 


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