[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism  (Read 26643 times)

Gilda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2003, 02:43:29 PM »
Quote
By all means. Please present your case why postmillennialism is a Biblical doctrine.

It's biblical because it's found in the bible. It just has to be ferreted out.

Psalms 41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.

I believe that Christ will come again after a thousand year (literal or spiritual) age in which the Church has victory on this earth and the kingdom of Christ has become the political world power. Our doctrine is that Christ's second coming will follow the millennium. This I think we can say is the standard definition of Postmillennial belief. We hold to a victorious Church of Christ in the world, against the pessimistic views of other eschatologies.

Let's start from the beginning, and take them one at a time.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Possessing the gates of his enemies is a prophecy of total victory over the world. In Abraham's seed we will look for world wide growth, triumph over the enemies, and blessing to the nations. The important thing here is the triumph

The Hebrew word for "possess" (yarash) means to take possession of. It is often used in reference to Israel's possession of the land of Canaan by triumphing over it and occupying their land (Deuteronomy 31:3). This is how Christ's kingdom must triumph, and the victory be ours.

Likewise Psalm 110 prophecies the complete triumph of the Jesus Christ and his Church over the enemies of God. This is an optimistic  view of the millennial reign, not a pessimistic view where the Church fails. Therefore by the kingdom of Christ will triumph and all nations will be subdued and submit to his reign during this millennial age. This will precede the second coming of Christ, and his return will mark the end of his mediatory reign.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
 
The fact is, the scripture teaches a promised Kingdom and reign of Christ on earth prior to the final judgment, and that reign is in victory, not defeat.

Quote
Do you agree this is the millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ? or do you have a different understanding of these verses?

Of course. All postmillennialists do. Some understand the thousand years just as amillennialists do, as a spiritual number. Other Postmillennialists take it literal. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is this millennium, or age when Christ's kingdom triumphs. It is the golden age of Christianity that will sweep over the earth prior to Christ's return.



Sandy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • I Stand Coram Deo
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2003, 04:39:47 PM »
Gilda,

If Christ has victory over all the earth prior to returning, what is the purpose for His return?  It doesn't sound like there will be anyone left to bring to Judgment, and since Christ is already victorious aren't His own already victorious too?

Your optimistic view makes no sense if it includes this sin-cursed earth.  And Christ is not interested in establishing a political world power.  He proved this clearly at His first coming.  Why didn't He do it then?  He had the opportunity, and the power to if He had so desired.  

You can choose to view the amil position as pessimistic, but it is the only view that aligns PERFECTLY with all of Scripture.

re4med

  • Guest
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2003, 06:12:18 PM »
Quote
Your optimistic view makes no sense if it includes this sin-cursed earth.  And Christ is not interested in establishing a political world power.  He proved this clearly at His first coming.  Why didn't He do it then?  He had the opportunity, and the power to if He had so desired.

Negative.  Christ could have established anything he wanted at his first coming however that was not his purpose.    He came as a lamb to be slaughtered for the just demands God required.  At His second coming He will come in power and glory and establish his reign.

Sandy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • I Stand Coram Deo
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2003, 11:11:39 AM »
re4med,

Exactly!  He will establish His reign at His Second Coming, not prior to this in this sin-cursed earth.

2 Peter 3:7   But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2235
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2003, 12:21:00 PM »
>>>
It's biblical because it's found in the bible. It just has to be ferreted out.
Psalms 41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.
<<<

This is one of the "typical" Postmillennial assumptions I talked about before, in that many believe Christ's triumphant kingdom cannot be anything except a near world wide Christian conversion. If these kind of verses are the basis of such assumptions, then this doctrine is found without sound foundation. The truth is that Christ's triumphant Kingdom has always been (and always will be) in God's Sovereign Grace plan of converting the remnant. The saving of the elect of the world. Not the world. This most basic of Christian truths seems to get lost in the dogma of Postmillennialism. I don't know if you read the previous posts, but another Postmillennial proponent also used the "misapplied" scriptures in Psalms in support of this view. But once again, when we examined it carefully, it obviously did not teach what they claimed it taught. Likewise, when we look at this passage carefully (in context), we see that not only does it not support Postmillennial assumptions, but it is vivid support for Christ's Kingdom triumphant in Him by His death and resurrection.

Psalms 41:9-11
  • "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
  • But thou, O LORD, be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that I may requite them.
  • By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me."

In this Messianic Psalms by the Patriarch David, it ultimately speaks of Christ as the head and representative of God's Church. It is thus illustrating that by the hand of Judas, Jesus was betrayed unto death, but He was risen that He might pay them back in bringing judgment (as it were) upon the enemies. We read that it is "BY THIS" that we know Christ has triumphed and not His enemies. In the Resurrection! In other words, to the Postmillennialist, their idea of conquering the world, or overcoming the world, or triumphing in the world, is world wide conversions. But to God, the cross was the triumph of Christ's Kingdom, and the Church (kingdom on earth) thus goes forth triumphantly with Him. God said that "by this" raising up, there is this triumph over the enemies. By this Christ reigns on the throne as King. By this the Kingdom of God has come, not will come. And so finally, we have to let scripture interpret scripture.

Acts 2:29-31
  • "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
  • Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
  • He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

So we see CONCLUSIVELY that when that Psalm 41 spoke of the friend who betrayed Him, and that Christ would be risen up to requite or repay them, and that by this raising up He triumphs over his enemies, it spake of the resurrection of Christ and his ascension to His reign in sitting on the throne. For Postmillennialists to try and use this passage to support a future reign is to misapply this scripture, and take it out of context. It was never a promise to Christianize the world, but that all the world would be christianized in the triumph of Christ. Christians have not been failing, but triumphing ever since. ..Postmillennialist views notwithstanding.

2nd Corinthians 2:14
  • "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place."

To use passages like in the Psalms which illustrate triumph and declare this proves postmillennialism, is to take liberties with the word of God that are unwarranted. First, to deny that we triumph in Christ, and have been for the last 2000 years, is a denial of scripture. So let's not go there. Second, to not deny it, but embrace it as the word of the living God that it is, clearly means that our Amillennial eschatology, far from being "pessimistic," is the gospel truth of the Kingdom's triumph in Christ now in the world. Third, to say anything less is confusion.


Quote
>>>
Let's start from the beginning, and take them one at a time.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Posessing the gates of his enemies is a prophecy of total victory over the world.
<<<

The Seed possessing the gates of the enemy is Christ's Church (Galatians 3:29) through Christ, going forth conquering and to conquer, that Satan's kingdom (gates are the bars which keep people out) will not be able to stand against Christ's assault. i.e., the Kingdom of God has been going forth in the form of the Church for the last two thousand years, and it is with power, that the enemy cannot stand against it. Satan has been a defeated foe as far as we're concerned, and his kingdom is being spoiled. Not in the future, but from the time of the cross.

Luke 10:18-19
  • "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
  • Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Christ has been knocking down strongholds and has been setting free captives, and has been spoiling Satan's kingdom. This is the age of righteousness and of Peace and Safety! This is the age of Prosperity. And Satan, by Christ's death, had no power to stop Christ's Church from being built from the spoils of this spiritual warfare. Satan could not stop Christ from posessing the gates of His enemies (prophesy fulfilled). God is not ambiguous that the Millennial Kingdom of Christ had come at Christ's first advent, it's just that some Christians refuse to "receive" what is so plainly written. Did Christ triumph over Satan's house, breaking his defenses (gates), and spoiling (taking by conquest) or seizing those whom Satan held in possession there? The answer is an unequivocal yes. ..if we will receive it.

Luke 11:20-22
  • "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
  • When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

So the question is, Did Christ possess the gates of his enemies as required by the Genesis prophecy? And the only objective and honest answer has to be, yes. And God says, if that be true, then no doubt the Kingdom of God has come unto you. It's not a future millennial reign or Kingdom, it's a done deal. It is an already "REALIZED" Kingdom, reserved for us in heaven unto the day of redemption. Now I realize Postmillennialists don't like to hear these truths, but in the end, we have to let God interpret his own prophesy.

You are totally correct in the thousand years being spiritual. It started at the cross when Christ triumphed and possesses the gates of his enemies. Satan was defeated of Christ and those gates could not (and cannot) withstand the assault from Christ's kingdom. The Rider on the white horse going forth with bow, conquering and to Conquer illustrates this. Moreover:

Matthew 16:18
  • "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Gates cannot stop Christ. Satan's armor and defenses are useless against Him. Is this the pessimism of Amillennialism? God forbid! Pessimism is a word used by Postmillennialists in lieu of a cogent Biblical argument. But in truth we believe that Christ's Church is what God in interested in building, not world peace, world righteousness, and world rule. Satan tempted Christ and offered Him world rule, but Christ was not interested in that kind of ruling on earth. His kingdom is not of this world. God knows perfectly well that the world is desperately wicked, and that there will be little faith on it when Christ returns, and Hell will be heavily populated. His triumph is not in making the world righteous, but in making the elect in the world righteous, in His triumph over the world many years ago.

John 16:33
  • "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

There we have it. Not might have tribulation, not could have tribulation, all those who serve God "SHALL" have tribulation in the world. We're not looking to Christianize the world, but are as Paul (Romans 11:14), just looking to Save some out of the world. There we have the two doctrines. Christ's triumph over the world in tribulation, and how we (The Church) will triumph over the world in tribulation, in Him. This versus Postmillennialists assumptions of a world without tribulation and Christianized, and Christ ruling it in a fure golden age of bliss.


Quote
>>>
Posessing the gates of his enemies is a prophecy of total victory over the world. In Abraham's seed we will look for world wide growth, triumph over the enemies, and blessing to the nations. The important thing here is the triumph
<<<

Again, as with the Judaizers, Premillennialists and Postmillennialists make the exact same mistakes. They are really very similar Eschatologies looking for an earthly righteousness, prosperity and peace in the world, when in fact these scriptures you present were already fulfilled in Christ. In Christ the world was brought Peace, Prosperity, and righteousness. His kingdom is not the proverbial "chop liver," it is a glorious Kingdom as He reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But don't take my word for it. If we will receive it, God told us plainly it was fulfilled. There is no future millennial reign of the kingdom, that reign started at the cross, and those enemies were triumphed over at the cross. He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Lu 1:68-75
  • "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
  • And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
  • As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
  • That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
  • To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
  • The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
  • That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
  • In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life."

Why are Postmillennialists and Premillennialists so intent on looking for a future Millennial Kingdom, when God has again and again and again declared that the kingdom and reign of Christ has already come, and he has already triumphed over the enemies, and he is already possessing the gates of his enemies? Because they are indoctrinated into following dogma rather the the actual scriptures.
 
Matthew 16:18-19
  • "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
  • And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Because of Christ, the Church goes forth with the power of the gospel possessing the gates of his enemies, spoiling Satan's house and loosing his captives.

 
Quote
>>>
Likewise Psalm 110 prophecies the complete triumph of the Jesus Christ and his Church over the enemies of God. This is an optimistic  view of the millennial reign, not a pessimistic view where the Church fails.
<<<

The old Bug-A-Boo, "Pessimism of Amillennialism." This word "pessimism" that is so often used by proponents of Postmillennialism, is not a defense of their view, rather it is a spurious tactic used in an vain attempt to paint those who don't hold to their view as somehow not believing Christ ultimately triumphs. Nevertheless, I think that most serious bible believing Christians can see through that charade and discern the motives. Nothing can thwart our optimism for the Kingdom of Christ.

When Stephen was stoned to death, was he a miserable failure? No, the just shall live by faith. Not faith in a Christianized end world, but faith in Christ's continual expanding of the kingdom in a world in which Christ "PROMISED" that we would see tribulation there. Bringing the gospel in this tribulation may be seem like a failure in Postmillennial eyes, but in God's eyes these have triumphed in Christ's kingdom. And tribulation in the world only serves to make Christ's elect (Predestination, Sovereignty of God, etc.) stronger. It serves a triumphal purpose which Postmillennialists do not understand.

2nd Timothy 3:12-13
  • "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
  • But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

Persecution of the saints in the world and tribulations which they all must go through is not a sign of failure, but triumph. Having a Biblical disposition about the world waxing worse and worse is not pessimism, it's Biblical realism. And all Amillennialists understand that the Church has been growing and growing. As a Mustard seed which was planted very small, and yet year after year it's slowly grown until it is a huge tree. Since the death and resurrection of Christ there are so many who have been Saved that they cannot be numbered. If you call that a failure of the Church, then you have redefined the meaning of failure, and of Christ building His Church. For in essence you are "plainly" declaring that he's been a failure for two thousand years that there has not been this (alleged coming) golden age. if you define failure in a way that only a Christianized world would be success, and anything less is pessimism, then that is what you are saying. This point in itself proves you are wrong.

As for the passages of Psalms 110

Psalms 110:1-2
  • "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
  • The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

Again, on the contrary, this is an illustration of Christ's death and resurrection as He ascended to the throne in His kingdom, and reigns and rules now. The Government is "now" upon His shoulders, not will be. He has a kingdom and we have been translated into it "now," not will be in a future millennial golden age. His kingdom is "now," therefore his reign is now, and we reign as Kings and priests with him.

Revelation 1:6
  • "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."


Quote
>>>
The fact is, the scripture teaches a promised Kingdom and reign of Christ on earth prior to the final judgement, and that reign is in victory, not defeat.
<<<

1st John 5:4
  • "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

Victory as you define it, or victory as God defines it? Do interpretations belong to each one of us to decide for ourselves what eschatology we want, or does interpretations belong to God? Do we form our eschatology around His Word, or do we form His Word around our eschatology?

Genesis 40:8
  • "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."

If interpretations belong to God, then we define victory not in the light of the world, but in the light of God's divinely inspired and inerrant word.

1st Corinthians 15:57
  • "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And we define the millennial reign by God, not man. And when we do that, we "CLEARLY" see that the millennial reign starts when Satan was bound (the cross), and thus it is Biblically impossible to start sometime in the future.

Revelation 20:2-3
  • "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
  • And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The millennial reign of Christ starts at Satan's binding. Contradiction number 202. If the Millennial reign of Christ starts at the Binding of Satan, at the cross, then how is it that Postmillennials believe the reign of Christ is future? Again, makes no sense.

There is no mention here, or anywhere else of a golden age on earth where the world is Christianized. Christians are made from out of the world, not the world "made Christian." That is never going to happen.


Quote
>>>
What matters is this millennium, or age when Christ's kingdom triumphs. It is the golden age of Christianity that will sweep over the earth prior to Christ's return.
<<<

The only golden age of Christianity happened when Christ instituted it when He established his Kingdom, His reign, his victory, by His death and resurrection. i.e., the New Covenant with Israel, where Christ reigns with the government upon His shoulders. The Victory of that Kingdom has already been won. ..by the Rider on the white horse going forth conquering and to Conquer. And we with Him. We can be of good cheer because Christ has overcome the world, and we overcome (conquer) in Him.

Romans 8:37
  • "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."

Nothing can take away the triumph and nothing can take away the victory. Now that's "TRUE" optimism, not the artificial  beliefs that the world will get progressively better until it's Christianized. Man is desperately wicked. The plan of Sovereign God is not to fix the world, but to gather the elect. Wheat and tares in the same field, not a field of wheat where Christ has plucked out all the tares. That's man's idea of victory, not God's. And when the harvest time draws near, then Satan will be loosed, not upon a golden age of Christainizing, but upon a world full of tares, a world which has degarded to the point like it was in the days of Noah, and in the days of Lot. A point which we cannot be far off from.

Luke 18:8
  • "I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

It's a rhetorical question. And the answer is no. That's why Christians must be all sealed (secured) before Satan is loosed.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. -Revelation 7:3"

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2235
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2003, 12:50:19 PM »
>>>
Negative.  Christ could have established anything he wanted at his first coming however that was not his purpose.    He came as a lamb to be slaughtered for the just demands God required.  At His second coming He will come in power and glory and establish his reign.
<<<

Again, that is your personal opinion, not the word of God. He has already established His reign in His kingdom. To reign in scripture means to rule a Kingdom. If Christ does not rule His kingdom, then we as Christians are of all men most foolish for being Christians. For how then are we servants, serving in this Kingdom we have been translated into? It makes no sense. But the unadulterated truth is a lot different from man's philosophies. For Christ does rule in His Kingdom, and His Church is an optimistic one, understanding that His triumph is not earthly.

Colossians 1:13
  • "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

You say at His second coming He will come in power and glory and establish his reign but scripture is clear that He has already established His reign, and translated us into His kingdom. Not a non-reigning kingdom, but one where He rules and we are His servants. If this is pessimism, give me pessimism all day long. On the contrary, this is God telling us that Christ already has an established Kingdom and great multitudes were being translated into it, and they live and reign as Kings and Priests in His kingdom. Selah!  And no Postmillennial proponent has yet answered the contradiction of how Christ has broken down the gates of his enemies, delivered us from Satan's kingdom, translated us into Christ's Kingdom, and yet this is not the fulfillment of "thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies," nor proof Christ is now ruling in His Kingdom. This is complete and utter confusion.

Psalms 41:11
  • "By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me."

The Word of God unambiguously contradicts the Postmillennial position. It states Christ is reigning, and also that he will continue to reign until his enemies are triumphed over.

1st Corinthians 15:25
  • "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Obviously this is the millennial reign, and just as obvious is that it cannot be a reign in a golden age of a Christianized world, for there are enemies of Christ, they have not all been vanquished, and will not be until the end of days. The last day is Judgment day. He is reigning in this millennium, and the enemies are being defeated. Not as Postmillennialism wants, but as God defines in His Holy word.

By the way, what scripture did you present in support of this theory that Christ is not ruling as king? Or that He has no Kingdom as yet? Or He has a kingdom, but it's not the right Kingdom....

John 18:36
  • "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Christ has a Kingdom now, He rules in it now, his servants are in it now. ..according to the word of God. Postmillennialists and Premillennialists would do well to remember that. Christ's kingdom does not come with observation where you can say LOOK, see it as a Christianized world. Or Look, see it over in the Holy land in the middle east. That never was, and never will be Christ's Kingdom. His Kingdom is in the election, the chosen few. The rest have no clue about how the Kingdom is within them as Christ is within them, and how they cannot see this Kingdom of God physically.

Luke 17:20-21
  • "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
  • Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

So Postmillennialists and Premillennialists can keep looking for a Kingdom coming in the future, which they can observe on earth, but as for me and my house, we shall abide by God's word that Christ has already established his kingdom, that it is not of this world, and that it cannot be observed as earthly kingdoms can. Christ does rule as King of Kings and lord of lord, but as God defines it

 ..how does a Saviour be king, have a Kingdom, been given rule over all, translated us into this Kingdom, and yet He is not ruling?

By the way, I'm still waiting for your first post containing God's Word and not your own.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2235
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2003, 01:27:24 PM »
>>>
Re4med,
Exactly!  He will establish His reign at His Second Coming, not prior to this in this sin-cursed earth.
<<<

Sandy, you are incorrect on both counts. First, Re4med hasn't said anything "exactly" yet. And second, Re4med hasn't posted a single scripture showing anything that he has said about either Postmillennialism or Praeterism to be based upon anything. Not God's word, much less prove that Christ isn't now ruler. So your contention is logically absurd.

Again, Christ has already established His Kingdom, else God is curiously saying we are translated into HIS Non-existent Kingdom (Colossians 1:13). That cannot be, despite your unfounded objections. Therefore, Christ "in Fact did" deliver us from the kingdom of Satan, and He "did" translate us into His kingdom. A Present established Kingdom. We thus "are" his subjects and servants there, and He does rule over us. The Government "is" upon His shoulders. Those are Biblical facts. When Christ ascended to the throne of God, He was put there to rule and reign over all, and He does. But don't take my word for it.

Ephesians 1:20-21
  • "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
  • Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

Christ has now been lifted up to rule over all Principalities (rules and estates), and powers. Not only in this world (now) but in the world to come. Selah! Christ "has" been crowned King, given a Kingdom, and rules over every name that is named. In other words, every order of being, whether in heaven or on earth, every single creature that bears a name.


Quote
>>>
2 Peter 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
<<<

Sorry. But the scriptures you posted (2nd Peter 3:7-13) doesn't say anything about Christ not ruling until His second advent, nor does it even remotely "imply" anything like that, nor can it be construed in any way to mean that. Consider those verses afresh.

Does Christ not reign over Israel? Is He not the prophesied Prince (sar) or RULER of peace who brought in righteousness? Indeed, this Prince rules and we are those He rules over. Else we are Rulerless, Reignless and Kingdomless. God Forbid!

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

re4med

  • Guest
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2003, 01:50:42 PM »
Quote
Again, that is your personal opinion, not the word of God. He has already established His reign in His kingdom. To reign in scripture means to rule a Kingdom. If Christ does not rule His kingdom, then we as Christians are of all men most foolish for being Christians. For how then are we servants, serving in this Kingdom we have been translated into? It makes no sense. But the unadulterated truth is a lot different from man's philosophies. For Christ does rule in His Kingdom, and His Church is an optimistic one, understanding that His triumph is not earthly.

No  -- that is your opinion. 

daniel brown

  • Guest
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2003, 02:23:24 PM »
study to show thyself aproved,since tony is the only one on this subject using scripture,i will have to study what he says the rest is just ? well not scripture, tony thank you for spending your time ,helping the rest of us

                                                  daniel

Sandy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • I Stand Coram Deo
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2003, 02:45:54 PM »
Tony Warren,

Thank you for the correction.  It was poor wording on my part.  What I should have said is that Christ is indeed reigning over His kingdom NOW!  But, at His Second Coming He will reign not from this sin-cursed earth but from the new heaven and the new earth and we (believers) will reign with Him.

Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2389
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2003, 04:52:12 PM »
Yes, Sandy

I know it might be bad analogy but I imagined that Christ's First Coming was more like "D-Day" and His Second Coming will be more like "V-Day" and the consummation (DAN 9:27).  

The 1,000 "millennial" years, as far as Satan's being bound is concerned, lasted between "D-day" and few years before the "V-Day" (REV 20:3).  Satan will be loosened for few years (don't ask me how long  ::)) before the Second Coming, to bring judgement upon the whore (apostate church), which is now controlled by of false christians (spells prophets).  The true elects who have been sealed by God and are alive right now, will endure right to the end, when Lord Jesus will deliver His Kingdom unto His Father.  There will not be very many true believers on earth to be raptured when God returns.

Peace,
Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Bradley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2003, 05:20:28 PM »
Jeremiah 23:5-6
5   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6   In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Romans 5:15-21
15   But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16   And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17   For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18   Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19   For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20   Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21   That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This passage in Romans directly reflects the victory of Christ at the cross when the gift of righteousness became available to God's people.  Paul gives further instruction into the time of a believer's reign in I Corinthians 4:7-8.

I Corinthians 4:7-8
7   For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8   Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

The strong man has been bound (Matt. 12:29) and the kingdom of God is now.  It is a spiritual kingdom which can only be understood by the Spirit of Christ.

Bradley



Diane Moody

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Gender: Female
  • The Kingdom is Within You
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2003, 05:41:07 PM »
Tony Warren,

Thank you for the correction.  It was poor wording on my part.  What I should have said is that Christ is indeed reigning over His kingdom NOW!  But, at His Second Coming He will reign not from this sin-cursed earth but from the new heaven and the new earth and we (believers) will reign with Him.

Sandy,
  Thank you for the correction? God bless you Sandy. It is so refressing to read a little humility, and to hear from one mature enough to just say they were wrong or that they made a mistake, and thank you for the correction. Especially after reading post after post lately of a couple of arrogant people fighting the quoted scriptures and pridefully insisting they still don't say that. Don't want to get off topic, but just wanted to thank you for brightening up my day. Your post made my day.

And I agree with what you said. At His Second Coming He will reign not from this sin-cursed earth but from the new heaven and the new earth and we will reign with Him.

 1 Thessalonians 4:17
 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."



Gilda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2003, 03:41:44 PM »
Tony and Company,

The Scriptures clearly teach that the gospel is to exercise a real influence over all tribes of the human race, and that it will be more extensive and transforming than any ever realized before. That is what Postmil doctrine teaches. I'm not saying Christ isn't reigning now. We know that Christ is king now, we know that Christ reigns now. That's not at issue. You should read the book "Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope," by Keith A. Mathison. it will help you deal with your pessimism.

God prophesies that Christ’s kingdom is an exalted mountain which towers over the earth. We read

"the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills" (Isa. 2:2b).

That's postmillennial optimism. We believe that the power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel, will increase dramatically, and the great weight of nations will then submit to Christ at some time in the future. The victory will be Christ's.


Rebel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Do I dare disturb the universe?
Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2003, 04:31:40 PM »
Quote
You should read the  book "Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope," by Keith A. Mathison.
    Thanks  but  no  thanks.  We're  all  caught  up  with  a  much  more  interesting  book  called  "The  Holy  Bible."  It's  a  #1  bestseller.  
     
     
Quote
it will help you deal with your pessimism.
    What  pessimism?  I'm  having  the  time  of  my  life  being  an  amillennialist!  Nothing  brings  more  joy  than  knowing  the  truth  even  if  it's  not  to  everybody's  liking.

     "Psa 119:103  How sweet are thy words unto my taste! [yea, sweeter] than honey to my mouth!"
     Does  that  sound  pessimistic  to  you?

    " 1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
     Anyone  who  has  this  promise  cannot  be  pessimistic!  [Mischief  on]  I'll  tell  you  what  sounds  depressing  to  me:  hangin'  out  on  this  stinking  earth  another  thousand  years  waiting  to  go  to  heaven! [/mischief  off]

   
Quote
God prophesies that Christ&#8217;s kingdom is an exalted mountain which towers over the earth. We read

"the mountain of the Lord&#8217;s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills" (Isa. 2:2b).

     'Scuse  me,  but  I  see  no  mention  of  the  earth  in  that  verse.  Just  hills  and  mountains.  The  kingdom  that  the  Lord  has  established  in  us  is  high  above  any  other,  higher  than  the  mountains---the  kingdoms---that  the  world  has  set  up.  Guess  it  depends  on  how  you  interpret  'mountain.'  The  millennial  kingdom  has  already  come.  

     
Quote
That's postmillennial optismism. We believe that the power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel, will increase dramatically, and the great weight of nations will then submit to Christ at some time in the future.

     Hmm.  A  very  pretty  thought.  Very  different  from  the  "pessimistic"  thinking  of  us  amils,  eh?  That's  the  problem  with  the  church  today.  Something's  gotta  feel  good  to  be  the  truth.  That's  sad.  Does  there  always  have  to  be  icing  on  the  cake?  The  fact  that  Jesus'  kingdom  has  already  come  may  not  be  as  cheerful  as  a  literal  global  reign.  But  look  at  the  Jews!  They  expected  their  Messiah  to  sit  on  a  throne  and  reign  over  them  too  and  never  realized  that  He  had  already  come.  The  truth  hurts.  People  just  can't  take  the  thorns  with  the  roses  these  days  because  thorns  don't  feel  so  good.  They'd  rather  have  their  ears  tickled  with  visions  of  worldwide  peace  and  serenity.

     "2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"
     That's  exactly  what's  happening  today.  The  church  is  just  one  big  lump  of  optimism,  false  hopes  and  pride.  Well  I'm  going  to  accept  the  truth  no  matter  how  gloomy,  pessimistic  or  unvictorious  it  sounds.  Just  because  it  feels  good  doesn't  mean  it  is!
     So  you  think  we're  pessimistic?  Too  bad.  I  don't  see  it  that  way.  I'm  glad  that  Christ's  kingdom  is  here  and  I'm  thankful  to  be  a  part  of  it.  If  you  don't  see  it  that  way,  oh  well,  you  say  tomato,  I  say  .  .  .
     Grace  be  with  you  all,
                                           Rebel  <><
       

     
Until  you  find  something  worth  dying  for,  you're  not  really  living.

     "Deo  Valente"

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]