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Author Topic: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism  (Read 27916 times)

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2018, 03:43:18 PM »
I realize this is an amillennialist weighted forum, but are there any postmillennialists here?

Amillennialists are also postmillennial.


Going over this thread I had to respond to this misleading post. Amillennialists are not also Postmillennial because the two words describe, and more importantly represent two very different doctrines.

Good point ... because the two words describe ]ThUmBsUp[ ... two very different doctrines.
እግዚኣብሄር ኣቦ ብወዱ ብጐይታ ክርስቶስ የሱስ ዓብዪ ግብሪ ምድሓን ገይሩልና ። ክብርን ምስጋናን ፡ ብስም ክርስቶስ የሱስ ንዕኡ ይኹኖ ። ኣሜን ።

ናይ ዘልኣለም ህይወት ፣ ብናይ ኣምላኽና ዘልኣለማዊ ጸጋ ። ንሱ ርእሲ ኹሉ ኮይኑ ፣ ንዘልኣለም ይነግስ ።

Joanne

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #106 on: October 27, 2018, 05:01:35 AM »
Tony Warren,
   You are very rude in this thread. You shouldn't treat people with such disrespect just because they disagree with your position. Amillennialism is a very unpopular position, so if you are going to be rude to everyone condemning it, you're going to have problems with near everyone who comes to this forum. Show some respect for other Christian views.  )-Oh-tHe-DrAma-(


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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2019, 01:55:45 PM »

1st Corinthians 13:11
  • "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Time to move on.


The Premillennialists preach Jewish dreams,

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

and the Postmillennialists preach fantasy world dreams of world bliss.

 Jeremiah 14:19 Hast thou utterly rejected Judah? hath thy soul lothed Zion? why hast thou smitten us, and there is no healing for us? we looked for peace, and there is no good; and for the time of healing, and behold trouble!

Both without one stitch of real biblical support. If you want to hear rhetoric at it's best, with no scripture, go to the top Postmillennial dominion theology website and read their articles. When you come to some scripture support, let me know. I kid you not. It's all politics and civil law.

Kenneth White and Tony Warren,
   I was googling about Reformed Postmillennial doctrines and unfortunately, it brought me to your website, and ultimately your forum. I strongly object to your use of the term "Jewish Dreams" to describe the beliefs of those of Postmillennial faith. We're not dreamers and neither are the Jews or Dispensationalists. There are many good Christians who believe in all eschatologies. I'm just following the scriptures that clearly teach a postmillennial eschatology. The Reformers were clearly postmillennial and so where do you get this idea that we have somehow strayed from the faith. Reformed Postmillennialism is just as orthodox as Amillennialism.

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2019, 08:26:24 AM »
Kenneth White and Tony Warren,
   I was googling about Reformed Postmillennial doctrines and unfortunately, it brought me to your website, and ultimately your forum. I strongly object to your use of the term "Jewish Dreams" to describe the beliefs of those of Postmillennial faith. We're not dreamers and neither are the Jews or Dispensationalists.

I strongly suggest you read an article, the link of which I will post after this quote.

Quote
So as not to let the other culprit in this error of earthly dominionism of the hook, we now turn our attention and criticism closer to home, toward our own circles, the Reformed church. It has been pointed out that Chiliasm with all its attendant errors is not confined to Dispensationalism alone. Puritan Postmillennialism has been on the ascendency for some time now and it has contributed greatly to the false paradigm of an earthly concept of ďall Israel.Ē It is responsible for providing several strains of misleading thought about Godís kingdom. This is due to an incorrect addition placed upon the covenant view of the kingdom. By adding a civil component to Godís covenant, one that Scripture gives no warrant, the error of earthly dominionism then arises. We must begin to consider now its most virulent form outside of Roman Catholicism itself.

We refer to the militant philosophy of the Postmillennial ideal known as Theonomic Reconstruction. Theonomy means Godís law, and is the theological foundation of the reconstruction movement. Reconstruction on the other hand is the method of imposing it on the world. It is a view of the kingdom that shares some of the same literalism that Dispensationalism does, but in a different way.[6] Dispensationalism frames its theology around the Theocratic kingdom of Old Testament Israel. Its primary concern is reestablishment of the land of Israel as the primary promise of God given to Abraham and his descendants (Gen 15:18). Joined with this is the Mosaic theocracy that culminated in the Davidic kingdom. The Mosaic theocracy is summed up in the all-inclusive term law. This is what the Theonomist is all about too.

Whereas, Dispensationalists now view the law as fulfilled in Christ (Matt. 5:17-19), and therefore, not applicable to the Christian, it does see its return to Israel in the Millennial kingdom. Theonomy on the other hand, interprets Jesusí words in Matthew concerning the fulfillment and perpetuity of the law as applicable to the world. Therefore, the world must become a theocratic kingdom as the result of a Postmillennial advance throughout the church age, one that culminates in the return of Jesus to rule it. Its insistence on this is derived from a transferral of Israelís theocratic kingdom under the Mosaic institutions, over to the Christian church. For instance, Theonomists would have the civil authorities stoning law breakers to death as it was done in the Old Testament. Included in this list would be not only murderers, but idolaters and homosexuals too. Also, any Christian who does not espouse every doctrine of the Theonomists, would be in the same position too, just as it was under Roman Catholicism in the Middle Ages.

In order for this to occur, the world must be made subject to the church. This would involve the civil authorities who would enforce Theonomy upon an unregenerate populace. It is important to note here that Theonomists view submission to the institution of the church, down to the least ďjotĒ and ďtittleĒ of its ordinances to be essential to salvation. This is the same mantra used by Roman Catholics for centuries. We do not deny the chief way Christ calls His elect into the kingdom is through the centrality of gospel preaching in the church. And, that worship as it is instituted in the church through the regulative principle is the chief purpose for which it exists. Nevertheless, salvation is according to the new birth apart from any means save Godís sovereign grace, not membership in the church nor the use of its ordinances (Luke 23:43).

So, before the civil covenant can be successfully enacted, the church must be made subject to Theonomy, therefore, it must undergo reconstruction too. This is in fact what has been taking place for a number of years. Theonomy has almost completely taken control of the two leading Presbyterian denominations, the Orthodox Presbyterian church and the Presbyterian Church in America. The way this has been implemented is, through the efforts of a number of educated, zealous teachers, who do their work in conjunction with several organizations that have been designed specifically toward this end. Men such as Gary North and Greg Bahnsen come to mind as two of the leading intellectuals of this movement. North has written volumes on Theonomic exposition so large his literary production is dwarfed only by the Puritans. Bahnsen, a highly regarded Theologian and Philosopher, has provided much of the movements present world view.

Here is where a very large and very dangerous difference lies between Theonomy and Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism has been since its beginning inundated with aberrant teachings too numerous to mention. Theonomy on the other hand is Calvinistic. Anyone better taught from Scripture oftentimes will more readily see through the errors of Dispensationalism. It makes their fantastic assertions about Eschatology ever the more suspect. But Theonomy is not like that. The promoters of Theonomy are generally conservative and orthodox in their views of salvation, subscribing to one or other of the Reformed confessions.[7] This makes the poison of their errors more insidious. Hereís the reason why. While Dispensationalism tends to be antinomian, claiming the moral law has no binding relevance on a believerís life and practice, historic Calvinism rightly recognizes the moral law as a believerís duty. Calvin called this the threefold distinction of the law. First, it condemns a sinner and shows them their need of Christ. Second, it directs a believer in their duty toward God. And third, it condemns the world of unrighteousness.

Theonomy not only applies the moral law rightly in this same threefold manner, but includes the civil law in it too. Every Christian knows the struggle of trying to determine what is right and wrong concerning citizenship in this world, under civil authority. We have already addressed the tendency Christians have toward a desire to impose Ecclesiastical authority over society. So the Christian is often beset with difficulty in trying to determine what, if any of the theocratic laws pertaining to Israel may still have relevance for today. For instance, should a homosexual be put to death by the civil authorities as it was done in Israel? When Christians live under tyrannical governments, these kinds of questions become almost academic, due to the fact they have no control over things. But here in America, where some semblance of democratic opinion may be exercised at the polls, it is entirely a different matter. Therefore, we have witnessed more than two hundred years of debate and controversy between secularism vs. theism in our culture.

Theonomy comes along with its well thought out, seemingly biblical world view and says that society should be governed by Godís law. This is all well and good for it is clear in Scripture that the law will be the standard by which God ďwill judge the world in righteousnessĒ (Acts 17:31). Every person will be judged according to their works under the moral law of God. However, nowhere in Scripture is there any indication the civil law of Israel is perpetual and therefore, should be imposed on the world. So, to the wary Christian who does not know which way to turn in judging matters as they are in society, Theonomy seems to be the plausible answer. What Christian is there that does not want to see the government respect the Bible? We look with horror and grief at how this once so-called Christian land has now become a Pagan travesty.

So Theonomy presents a tacit endorsement of the Bible as applied to civil society. How does it do this? First, as already stated, by reconstructing the church as a temporally theocratic organization. The church is the kingdom of God on earth. But there is no one organization that is the sole representative of that kingdom, like Israel was. Most Theonomists are Presbyterians who yearn to see a return to seventeenth century Puritanism. The Puritans were great men in many respects and all Calvinists are grateful for their contribution to the Reformed Protestant church. But the Puritans were far from perfect. Even more, they were far from being monolithic in what they believed and practiced. Many of the Puritans were Congregationalists, not Presbyterians. Also, The Puritan experiment as it is called, both in England and America was an utter failure. Puritan government was often harsh and unreasonable. All one has to do is read about Cotton Mather and the Salem witch trials. Theonomy would reinstate the kind of relationship between church and state that led to that ungodly debacle, which by the way, served to turn millions away from the Reformed faith toward Enlightenment skepticism.

Second, Theonomy focuses heavily upon Economic reform as a means of reconstructing society. There is no doubt that economics is a major theme that undergirds a biblical world view. Economic terminology pervades the entirety of Scripture, especially when it comes to Soteriology. For that reason, it is safe to say that economics is a theme that is inherent to Godís creation, and subsequent providence throughout history. Secularism today ignores what Scripture reveals as Godís economy concerning trade, value, debt, redemption, and many other related economic concepts. So they construct a manmade theory of economy that is imposed on society, one that is completely false and ungodly. Theonomists are prolific writers on this theme and there is much they have to say that shows what is proper economy within Godís created order. But the fatal flaw in trying to implement it is this is a fallen world. It will never succeed this side of glory because men are corrupt.

The antichrist, whether it should be understood as a literal person or an institution of men, will impose an economic system on the world too. In fact, it is more accurate to say the present world system with its global economy is the antichristian kingdom in progressive development. All things are presently veering away from Christ toward this kingdom. Education is not the problem with this system sin is the problem. It is a system designed to exploit the poor, rob the middle class, and reward the rich. It is a system designed to provide government subsidies to corporations who profit from it, but in turn pass on their losses to the taxpayers. It is a system that takes from the productive to give to some privileged underclass through entitlements. The fallacy of Theonomy, indeed, of Postmillennialism of any kind, is that this will ever change for the better. Perhaps in their dreams it will, but not according to biblical reality (James 2:5-7). The Christian is to live in this corrupt world, as though living in the kingdom, not fighting with carnal weapons in order to impose a pseudo heaven on earth (verses 8-13; II Cor. 10:3-5). There will be no latter day glory of the kind Theonomists imagine on earth before the Lord returns.

This brings us to the subject at hand, the state of Israel. Postmillennialism, whether it is Theonomic or not, believes in a literal return of Israel to Palestine, if for no other reason than for it to become part of their worldwide kingdom. Israel is presumed to be but one nation among many that will be converted to Christendom as part of the civil covenant.[8] Admittedly, Postmillennialism is in disagreement with Dispensationalism about many things to do with Israel. But both are in complete agreement over Paulís words in Romans eleven being futuristic and covenantal in terms of Gods promise to Abrahamís physical children. We conclude therefore, that Postmillennialism is just as much in error as Dispensationalism about not only Israel, but about Godís kingdom in general.[9]

This is where the subtlety of the Postmillennial error begins to appear. Dispensationalists tell us they interpret Scripture literally, and therefore, arrive at their literal yet false conclusions accordingly. They are at least consistent in their method of interpretation when it comes to their understanding of Paulís words concerning ďall Israel.Ē If every word spoken to physical Jews in the Old Testament should be interpreted literally now in the present age then this makes sense, even if they are wrong. Going even further, if Dispensationalists are right in their method, then they have won every argument made against them concerning the present state of Israel. While it is true that many problems can be found in the Dispensational interpretation of Scripture, every one of their errors comes from an honest attempt to be consistent.

Postmillennialists on the other hand contradict themselves. They follow the analogy of Scripture properly according to Covenant Theology, by interpreting Old Testament passages such as Isaiah 59:20,21 as pertaining to the church as spiritual Israel. Then they turn around and take the same text quoted by Paul in Romans 11:26,27 and apply it to the nation of Israel in Palestine.[10] This is a complete violation of the Scripture principle of interpretation, which must adhere to the biblical law of logic. If B cannot be A at the same time, and in the same sense according to God (Heb. 6:13-18), how can a single text that is used in reference to Israel have two simultaneously different interpretations? This is Postmodern nonsense at its best. Scripture is always consistent with itself when it makes a distinction between two antithetical concepts. Several examples of this are law and grace, liberty and love, flesh and spirit. If Israel in the Old Testament typifies the church in the New according to Paul everywhere else, he canít possibly mean something different in Romans eleven when he quotes Isaiah. Isaiah means either, physical Israel or spiritual Israel, the same is true for Paul. The two canít be the same thing at the same time.

Dispensationalism rightly points to a number of things in Scripture that Postmillennialists deny. These are the obvious trends spelled out in Scripture toward an eventual apostasy in the church, one that will give rise to the antichrist. This in turn will result in a threefold one world antichristian system. There is now in preparation and will be developed further as time goes by, a one world economic, governmental, and religious system that will try to utterly usurp God. Not only does Scripture point to this, but anyone who examines the United Nations charter and all their subsequent activity since its inception should see this too. We do not make the same mistake as Dispensationalists by saying the U.N. is prophetical fulfillment. We only make the point that it reveals what Scripture shows concerning the spirit of antichrist in the world, and the way things are going as the church age progresses. Dispensationalists take this and incorporate it into their end time scenario of events surrounding Israel.

Postmillennialists say there will be no apostasy, no antichrist, no one world system that follows, but rather a steady advance in the churchís dominion in the world that ends in all nations becoming Christian. Postmillennialists see no future tribulation for Christians as time goes on. Never mind that Revelation twenty (verses 7-9) declares before Jesus returns, an attempt will be made by Satan to eradicate Christianity from the earth. No, everything is rosy in the Postmillennial later day glorious kingdom. Now, Dispensationalists err in saying Christians will escape this tribulation John spoke of in Revelation. This will happen when the church is mysteriously and miraculously raptured from earth. This too, is nonsense because Paul taught that tribulation is the normative experience for Christians in the present age. So Postmillennialists err as well too, by saying that will not happen in the future.

But this presents another problem for the Postmillennial scheme. If all things since the first century have tended toward the advance of Christianity in the world according to their plan, why does history tell another story? To be sure, Christ has built His church and the gates of hell have not prevailed (Matt. 16:18). But this is understood in a certain context. Christ has and always will effectually call and save His people till the last one is secured. And there certainly have been periods of time in history when the church appeared to make great strides. But Scripture teaches that it is substance and not numbers that account for kingdom reality. And history shows us that apostasy from the truth, as well as constant persecution and turmoil in the world are more normative than otherwise. So this begs the question. When will the Postmillennial advance begin? Will it begin when Theonomists have their way, or will something else happen? Is the kingdom to come or is it already here? This is a fuzzy question for the Postmillennialist to answer.

In fact, there are some Postmillennialists who have put forth a theory of how their later day glory is supposed to appear. This comes from a school of Evangelical Reformed men that most Reformed Christians, this writer included would all agree are otherwise sound men. At this point too, we do not want to present new theological matters that require lengthy explanations in reference to this school of thought. So suffice it to say we refer to this school of Postmillennialism, and other related Chiliasm that identity with its exponents, as the revivalist school. This is a school of thought that says the later day glory will be realized by worldwide revival that transforms the church and the world. The current spokesman for this school is Iain Murray who wrote the book we have footnoted on The Puritan Hope. In this book Murray speculates that Paulís words in Romans eleven do indeed call for a literal return of Jews to the land, and for the reasons already stated in regard to Postmillennialism.[11]

There is always a desire on the part of Christians to see the church in any given era or place revived. There is also a desire to see Godís elect called into the kingdom. The sad reality in reference to revivalism is, that Scripture just does not support this theory as a means of advancing the kingdom. At least, not unless one takes the Old Testament word of promise made in reference to the rebuilding and prosperity of the Davidic kingdom to mean the Puritan Hope. But again, there is contradiction in doing this. If the failure of earthly Israel is the fulfillment of spiritual Israel, ie, the church, how is it the church can make any literal claims to the Old Testament kingdom promises? In order to do this, both Dispensationalists and Postmillennialists must bypass the New Testament and the apostles when coming to their kingdom conclusions. We conclude therefore, they are both in error for much of the same reason, which is that both have a desire to see theocratic rule in this present carnal world. Both fail to see how Godís kingdom has become spiritually realized in the church, where no distinction is made between people and nations other than the elect and the reprobate.

We also conclude the only legitimate and biblical explanation for understanding Godís kingdom, and therefore, Paulís words about ďall IsraelĒ are found in the non or Amillennial explanation. We have already shown what the term Amillennial means, so there is no need to backtrack. The problem that exists today among many of those who hold the Amillennial opinion is, they view Paulís words in Romans eleven incorrectly. It is also the very reason we have undertaken to write on the subject. Currently, there are a great many Amillennialists who agree with Dispensationalists and Postmillennialists about the state of Israel, and for similar reasons. We categorically say that this is not an Amillennial position to take. It is a contradiction of historic, biblical, creedal Amillennialism. That being said, one wonders how this has come to be. The answer to this wonderment must lie in the Ecumenical spirit of our day.

Ecumenism is not confined to Liberals. There seems to be an insatiable desire for Evangelicals of all stripes to stand on the same platform together and sing Ďkumbaya.í[12] Christian unity is a doctrine all Christians love. But it is not necessarily thought of today in a right and biblical manner. What we mean by this statement is simply this. The unity of Scripture depends upon doctoral agreement among people. This means there will always be a certain amount of disunity in the church till Christ comes to consummate the kingdom in the new heaven and earth in which righteousness dwells (II Pet. 3:13). In the interest of the gospel, the modern Evangelical is content to reduce the rest of the Bible to its lowest common denominator, in order to include everyone under the sun in a desire for unity. In part, this is something that has come about in reaction to the decline of Christianity in the west. So in a desire to circle the wagons, doctrinal compromise among different sects of the faith has become one approach to maintaining what is agreed upon among them all.[13]


From: https://thechurchessential.wordpress.com/2015/10/31/all-israel-part-10-concluding-remarks-on-contemporary-thought/

Matrix

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2019, 06:26:51 AM »
 Some conservative, Bible-believing Christians believe that before Christ returns the church will experience a Golden Age of unparalleled success, victory, and glory in this world - numerically, spiritually, and culturally. Some Puritans held to this position, as well as some well-known theologians of more recent times. Is there going to be a Golden Age before Christ returns?

http://upper-register.com/papers/golden.html

by B.A., M.Div. Lee Iron

Melanie

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2019, 01:29:39 PM »
Kenneth White and Tony Warren,
   I was googling about Reformed Postmillennial doctrines and unfortunately, it brought me to your website, and ultimately your forum. I strongly object to your use of the term "Jewish Dreams" to describe the beliefs of those of Postmillennial faith. We're not dreamers and neither are the Jews or Dispensationalists.

Hi Kevin, Did you read Tony's response of the key to understanding prophesy? You have to take Scripture as it was written, not the way we have been taught or the way the world would read it or as a promise of physical prosperity or world dominion. Here's his quote if you missed it.

"Most errors in interpretation stem from our seemingly inability to "fully" comprehend that it is the victory and ascendancy of Christ that stands as the focal point of the Gospel. It is not if Christ will bring peace and rule in the midst of His enemies, but how. Most bad interpretations come from the very same mindset that is often manifested in stubbornness and deeply entrenched church tradition. Note that this error of the Postmillennarian is the same error of the Judaizers that went before them, and indeed the same error of the Premillennarians that came after the Judaizers. Namely, they do not earnestly seek to honestly discern between the authority of the word in the Spiritual over the Physical or the figurative over the literal. We must earnestly discern between worldwide, national or international righteousness, and the individual righteousness of particular election. They do not discern the promises that the enemies of God would be defeated, and the 'worldwide' peace and righteousness that Christ would establish, has already been accomplished in the triumph of Christ Jesus. The Judaizers still wait for it, the Premillennialists still wait for it, and many Postmillennialists still wait for it."

Because of how you believe I know you don't think that this idea of earthly peace is a dream, but neither did the Judaizers or the Premillennialists who followed their way of interpretation. And yet it is wishful thinking by both.

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2019, 01:01:01 AM »
Hi Kevin, Did you read Tony's response of the key to understanding prophesy?

In one fell swoop Tony Warren attacks not only Historicists, Premillennialists and Preterists, but now Reformed Postmillennialists too. What makes him so perfect in his understanding that none other has? I stand by my belief that Premillennialism is the correct doctrinal teaching and the Christians on this site that are against all other eschatologies are practicing Isolationism. They stand alone because they don't remember how prophecy is supposed to be understood. As God's people Israel understood it, not as those who want to replace her understand it.

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2019, 03:07:49 PM »
>>>
Kenneth White and Tony Warren,
   I was googling about Reformed Postmillennial doctrines and unfortunately, it brought me to your website, and ultimately your forum. I strongly object to your use of the term "Jewish Dreams" to describe the beliefs of those of Postmillennial faith.
<<<

Ok, but for the record, I didn't coin the phrase. It is from the Reformed Second Helvetic Confession, and no doubt borrowed from the words of Titus 1:14 speaking of "Jewish Fables." It clearly speaks of the fictions of the Jewish people that was wishful thinking rather than truth. A fable is something that is not true, such as a tall tale. In this case it was clearly something the Jewish people taught and longed for, but which was a pipe dream. We can surmise from the Scriptures that this dream or fable was a Kingdom on earth ruled over by Christ, where He would physically defeat their political and physical foes. These were doctrines of men and not God, for God never prophesied of such an earthly kingdom, earthly liberty or earthly dominion over the world. Their beliefs were not the truth that Christ preached, but were fables, dreams that turned from the truth and that would never be realized.

Titus 1:14
  • "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

Jewish dreams is not a bad description of the Premillennial/Postmillennial tales of glorious "earthly" righteousness or kingdoms, nor a glorious golden age of righteousness on earth. Because these beliefs are dreams, or something not a reality. The golden age of the extension of Christ's kingdom on earth is "The Millennial Reign of Christ."  That extended righteousness and reign started at the cross and continues until the Kingdom is completed and it is delivered up to God.

1st Corinthians 15:24
  • "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The kingdom reign is now and it continues until the end when all Israel will have been saved. That's not talking about a earthly or national Israel, nor is it talking about extending righteousness so the whole world is Christianized in a glorious revival. It is talking about the kingdom on earth that is the Israel of God. It transcends nations, earthly kingdoms and physical golden ages.


Quote
>>>
We're not dreamers and neither are the Jews or Dispensationalists.
<<<

I'd say someone who believes in "pie-in-the-sky" would qualify as a dreamer. A dreamer being defined as:
  1. a person who lives outside of reality;
      of ideas conceived apart from fidelity;
      one with a vivid imagination;
      one who believes in fantasy;
      one who is impractical and unrealistic.

So then, if I'm being honest with myself and with all of the Scriptures concerning misconception, misbelief, misconstruction, misinterpretation, fallacy,  mistake, misunderstanding and myth, I would have to say this word defines these groups perfectly. I mean "considering" what they believe and what the Bible actually says and denies.

John 18:36
  • "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

The whole tenor of Christ's life was a portrait that signified, illustrated and exemplified that his kingdom was not a physical/earthly nation or kingdom to be extended throughout the world, but a spiritual nation or kingdom of which a remnant of the world would be saved. There is no worldwide salvation, no time of a golden Kingdom or period on this earth where many would be saved. His kingdom on this earth is the millennial reign of the church throughout these end times where collectively many would be saved. And as this millennial reign of Christ comes to a close, we know from Scripture that this world is not gearing up for a golden revival and righteous rule. On the contrary. I'm sorry, but to say anything less, considering God's whole word of truth, is to be a dreamer.


Quote
>>>
There are many good Christians who believe in all eschatologies.
<<<

I would not deny that, I have no inclination to judge any man's salvation (Romans 14:4) by his eschatology. In any place, who is saved and who is not is God's business and not something I choose to be an arbiter over. Nevertheless, I do judge the doctrines of Premillennialism, Postmillennialism and Preterism as false doctrines that no conscientious and faithful Christian "should" believe in.

2nd Timothy 2:15
  • "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Meaning if we don't, we may be ashamed, and if we do we will be approved of God. For God works through this that those of His Spirit know false doctrine from true doctrine, Jewish fables or Dreams and traditions from the reality which is Christ's spiritual Kingdom. Recognizing that the promised land and glorious reign is Spiritual and eternal, not earthly and temporal.


Quote
>>>
I'm just following the scriptures that clearly teach a postmillennial eschatology.
<<<

Rather than be redundant, let me just ask point blank.   ...Where?


Quote
>>>
The Reformers were clearly postmillennial...
<<<

That's not true either. But even if it were (which it is not), agreement with men or a consensus of belief is irrelevant to what the Scriptures teach. God's people of Israel were clearly in agreement against Christ, but what did that consensus mean? Nothing. It's not good to follow a tradition of any kind if it contradicts God's word.

Matthew 15:3
  • "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

Holding traditions contrary to the word of God is rebellion against God.


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..and so where do you get this idea that we have somehow strayed from the faith.
<<<

From comparing scripture with Scripture, and then comparing it with the words of the Postmillennarian. And if by "faith" you mean Scriptures, then yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. And using the relevant Scriptures to prove it. The whole of Scripture teaches a falling away, a degradation, an apostasy towards His second advent, not a golden age where the world "somehow" is Christianized. It teaches of a faithful remnant, not an end time mass conversion. It speaks of iniquity being unrestrained and Satan being loosed, not the Holy Spirit changing to save men on earth in glorious numbers. That is a "dream," not the reality of Scripture or what God declares.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-5
  • "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
  • Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
  • Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Let no man deceive you, it shall come. Shall Golden righteousness on earth overtake and conquer this unrestrained iniquity? Not according to scriptures taken in context and read as a whole. Shall a Golden age of righteousness come before it where the world will be Christianized? If so, how could there come a falling away? And where is any of this mentioned in Scripture.


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 Reformed Postmillennialism is just as orthodox as Amillennialism.
<<<

No, actually Postmillennialism is not orthodox, it's decidedly unorthodox when compared to all the teachings of Scripture. It may be orthodox with men (as Premillennialism also is said to be), but not with Scripture or with God. It is a unorthodox straying away from the teachings once handed down to the saints.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2019, 04:22:35 PM »
>>>
So in one fell swoop Tony Warren attacks not only Historicists, Premillennialists and Preterists, but now Reformed Postmillennialists too.
<<<

I don't attack Christians, what I do is preach against the false doctrines "posing" as the doctrines of Christ's kingdom and reign. Because one thing is sure, if a doctrine is not of Christ, and is contrary to Him and His kingdom, then it is an adversary to His truth.

Galatians 4:16
  • "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

More often than not, in all walks of life, the answer is Yes!


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What makes him so perfect in his understanding that none other has?
<<<

No man is perfect in understanding but the man Christ, but the Scriptures are perfect. Therefore, when it is contradicted, convoluted and even twisted to suit man's own personal agenda or belief system, then man is going against that which is perfect. Not imperfect Tony, but the word itself.

Psalms 119:98-100
  • "Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
  • I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
  • I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts."

That's a "principle" illustrating correct understanding comes from total reliance upon the infallible word of God. The place where perfect understanding comes from is not in our teachers, but by the Holy Spirit speaking through God's perfect word.


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I stand by my belief that Premillennialism is the correct doctrinal teaching...
<<<

As I'm sure Roman Catholics stand by their belief that the Pope speaks infallibly, but what we believe is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is, does what we believe agree with what God's word actually says or is our belief in earthly fiction, vain genealogies, fables, wishful thinking or corrupt theological teachings. Everyone "believes" in something, but is that belief based "solely" upon the divinely inspired word of God alone. Sola Scriptura. Test what is told you by the fire of God's word.

1st John 4:1
  • "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

How do we "try" or test the Spirits? We prove them by their agreement with the word of God. We compare Scripture with Scripture to see if those things said are in agreement with (Acts 17:11) the word of God. The church to a large degree today isn't doing that. They are simply sitting under teachers and believing what sounds good, feels good or seems good. ...and that is their downfall.


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...and the Christians on this site that are against all other teachings
<<<

So you're saying that a Christian should "not" be against all other doctrines that are contrary to what is written in the Bible? Well, you're wrong! That's exactly what a Christian should be against, and what he should separate himself from.

2nd John 1:10
  • "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:"

Doctrine is not a non-essential. When that Scripture says "if there come any," the Greek is indicative, meaning such professing Christians actually do come. In other words, it's not subjunctive. God doesn't tell us to practice ecumenism among these "diverse" doctrines or beliefs. Christian charity or love (agape) must be combined with a God-fearing renunciation and separation from all persons or doctrines that are false.

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...are practicing Isolationism.
<<<

Your isolationism I see as the "very Biblical" separation from doctrines not only contrary to the doctrines of Christ, but that is an offense to the truth. "At Best" there can really only be two doctrines of the Kingdom. One that is true, consequently making all others false. There is no middle ground. This truth is unpalatable for those who want to include every card-carrying professing Christian in the Kingdom of God. The truth is, there is only a remnant. That's not Isolationism, that's the biblical fact clearly delineated in Scripture. Many are called but few chosen, many on the wide road few on the narrow, many say to Christ Lord, Lord, but are not truly saved. That's not isolationism, that's God's truth that at any time in the world there is only a remnant that are actually followers of Christ.

Proverbs 23:23
  • "Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding."

i.e., the truth is that all that shimmers is not true gold. So beware the leaven of the Pharisees. I cannot apologize for saying Preterism, Premillennialism or Postmillennialism is Not True, because the truth shouldn't be apologized for.


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 They stand alone...
<<<

The faithful never stand alone because Christ is always with them. Even as Elijah thought he was alone, God still had a remnant of 7000 who had not succumbed to bow down to the god of this world. We don't stand alone because we have a comforter who assures we don't fall for disjointed, twisted and inconsistent doctrines, belief systems or pie-in-the-sky fantasies. We don't stand alone because by the grace of God we have been given an open mind and search the Scriptures to see if what is said is actually in agreement with what the Bible says. We never stand alone because it is not of us, but God who is with us and thus moves us to compare Scripture with Scripture to abandon the majority view, which is generally the false view. And because we don't go along with the crowd doesn't mean we stand alone. It means God has bestowed upon us the Spiritual nobility to have an open mind to His word. e.g.:

Acts 17:11-12
  • "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
  • Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

Just as in the episode of the more nobly endowed Bereans, it may have "seemed" they stood alone from among most people of Israel, but they were not alone. By God's grace, they (and we) possess the Spirit that moves us to search the Scriptures. Not to cling blindly to our congregation's traditions and beliefs, but to saving "belief."


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...because they don't remember how prophecy is supposed to be understood.
<<<

We "remember," however the Premillennial church has long forgotten that the concept of a physical rather than spiritual one thousand years earthly reign is a doctrine that was "inherited" from the type of earth-bound Judaism that Christ Himself rejected as error. He plainly taught that He did not come to bring physical earthly peace, nor to reign on this sin-cursed earth. Through all His words, parables and teachings He taught that His kingdom was always to be Spiritual and eternal. Thus Christians should know that the prophesies were of a Spiritual Holy City, a Spiritual Temple, a Spiritual Kingdom and these were all fulfilled just as they were divinely inspired to be fulfilled--Spiritually. From the Promised land, to Elijah's coming, to the house of bondage, to the releasing of prisoners, to making crooked roads made straight, to Jerusalem's warfare ending, to the peace of Jerusalem, to the desolation of Jerusalem, to the rebuilding, to the New Covenant with Israel, etc., etc.  It was "all" prophesied to have a Spiritual fulfillment. Those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth. Not as his enemies did, in carnal expectations of physical armies and war against their oppressors or a physical King ruling on a throne in Physical Jerusalem.
 
...to get back on topic, Postmillennialism in s sense makes the "same mistake" as Judaism, Chiliasm or Premillennialism (Ecclesiastes 1:9) in looking at prophesies predicting spiritual bounty or increase of a nation or nations to a physical world-wide phenomenon. i.e., a time of extended righteousness for God's people that was fulfilled in Revelation chapter 20's millennial reign, as a somehow future physical era of extended righteousness. This is what is termed by Postmillennialists, a "golden age" of world righteousness or revival. Missing totally that that so-called golden age of the nations reigning with Christ on earth started at the cross and ends when we are changed and the kingdom delivered up to the Father in Christ's second advent.

Revelation 20:3
  • "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Here is the age or time of extended righteousness to the Nations/Gentiles, where they come up to Jerusalem to worship and the gospel is extended all over the world unto righteousness as they are brought in to live and reign with Christ. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Kevin Madson

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #114 on: March 30, 2019, 08:56:12 AM »
You say this doctrine of optimism is false, but what if Postmillennials think that your doctrine is false, or Premillennialists believe your doctrine is false? What then?

Dan

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2019, 09:48:32 AM »
Ok, yes post millennialism is not true, Premillennialism is the bible doctrine. But that doesn't mean it gives other Christians the right to condemn them or to call thir views false doctrines.  All christians should show respect for other great theologians and church fathers opinions. That's how we learn. Most churches do that, but Tony Warren and company chooses to forego the charitable approach to theological debate in favor of condemnation and judgment. Big surprise.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2019, 03:34:38 PM »
>>>
Ok, yes post-millennialism is not true
<<<

Which undeniably means it is false, so you're talking out of both sides of your mouth in saying that I shouldn't call it false. Because "not true" equals false.

Proverbs 20:10
  • "Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD."

What is false cannot be true, and what is unbalanced cannot be balanced, and what is just for Peter has to be just for Paul. Otherwise, we have confusion.


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Premillennialism is the bible doctrine.
<<<

But that would mean that this doctrine could be found on the pages of the Bible, which Premillennialism cannot. No matter how vociferously someone proclaims it can. As stated before, this doctrine was constructed from the remnants of the earth-bound Judaism where the Jewish people dreamed about earthly rules, kingdoms and liberties. The same doctrines that Christ Himself rejected as error concerning those who were blinded.

Matthew 12:28-30
  • "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  • Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
  • He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

Those who speak against this are not with Christ, but against Him. The Kingdom of God had come to Israel and they have been set at liberty, but first Satan had to be bound by Christ. Your inability to understand this is "rooted" in your denial of the Spiritual in favor of the carnal. Israel has already been set at liberty to reign with Christ in His kingdom. That is the Bible doctrine and it is not called Premillennialism. We call it Amillennialism--but by any other name, it would smell as sweet. an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God as of "His" Kingdom.


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But that doesn't mean it gives other Christians the right to condemn them...
<<<

Condemning unbiblical doctrines is a duty. We don't condemn anyone personally, it is the word of God that condemns and judges man. And it is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Perhaps that's what you fear most. The reason you insist God's word of truth is my words.

John 12:48
  • "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Those who reject God's word don't need me to condemn them, they carry their own condemnation with them in rejecting God's word. Mankind's own words that he has spoken will be remembered and testified as witness to condemn him.


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...or to call thir views false doctrines.
<<<

You just said that Postmillennialism is not true. So you've just called it false yourself, while at the same time condemning someone else for calling it false. Is that not hypocrisy? What are we to think of that? Really, what is wrong with this picture?

The fact is, their views "are indeed" false, and your objections to my saying it rings hollow by your own testimony. Christ is my witness and my salvation, not the praise, pretense or respect of agreement by men.

Job 13:16
  • "He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him."

I ask you, what should the faithful Christian call doctrines that are not true but false?

Isaiah 29:24
  • "They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine."

How shall those who err come to understanding? Through patting them on the back and saying well done? No, by reproof and correction. Not by some osmosis or effusion of knowledge or a self-governing assimilation of man-made ideas or interpretations. God has designed it so that His word is a rod of correction, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. And that all of grace.


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All christians should show respect for other great theologians and church fathers opinions.
<<<

Respect means to show high regard; to have deep admiration; to reverence; to honor; to esteem; show deference. So no, Christians should "not" have respect for doctrines that are not true. Or theologians and church fathers who teach them.

Psalms 119:6
  • "Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments."

There is where respect belongs, to God's words, nort the words of men.


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That's how we learn.
<<<

That is not how we learn, that is how we are deceived and turned away from the truth. We learn by correction and reproof to not blindly accept emopty dream and fables, but proving these doctrines by comparing Scripture with Scripture. We do this so that we are not turned away from the infallible words of God to these fables. Fables such as visions of a future golden age that is good for no one, and only serves those propagating those dreams not delineated in Scripture.

2nd Timothy 4:4
  • " And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Why? Was it because they loved the truth and earnestly sought it out? No, God tells us it was because they would not endure (forbear or suffer) sound doctrine. They didn't want it and they wouldn't receive it. They went after their own lusts where they desired their teachers have ears that are pricked for that which is not God's word. That's not a recipe for learning the truth, that's a recipe for not "hearing" the truth. We don't learn from false doctrines, we are deceived by them.


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 Most churches do that
<<<

That "may" be true, but it really is not relevant what most churches do. What matters is our doing the right thing, not our doing what most churches do, or our doing what is convenient, or our doing the expedient thing. I'm not here to venerate the vaunted theologians, churches or Ministers, I'm here to be a witness to what the Bible (the word of God) says. Not a witness to consensus, but to God's word alone. If most churches don't believe truth, does that make God's truth null and void? I think not.

Romans 3:3-4
  • "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?/i]
  • God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

God's word is perfect and true, not man's word. Most churches say they believe that, but in practice they deny it. That doesn't make the word false, it makes their belief false.


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...but Tony Warren and company chooses to forego the charitable approach to theological debate in favor of condemnation and judgment. Big surprise.
<<<

There is no "charity" in showing respect for false doctrines, nor in condoning them for convenience or expediency. The old, "go along to get along" credo is not my philosophy, it is a philosophy and ontology that has brought the local churches to ruin. In fact, that is an example of lack of charity (agape) in taking this, "it doesn't matter" philosophy. You say we practice condemnation and judgment, and I retort that contrary to that, there is no condemnation and judgment in the church today. And there should be...

Job 19:7
  • "Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment."
Isaiah 59:8
  • "The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace."
Isaiah 59:15
  • "Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment."

Indeed, those faithful few who stand up for law and judgment are reviled, persecuted and ultimately become prey to those of the church who want only smooth things. Truth is, it has always been that the faithful who will not fall in line with the prevailing iniquity in the church exposes themselves to be a prey for the ravening wolves in sheep's clothing (Psalms 10:8-9). No Big Surprise there.

  I would there "were" condemnation and judgment, but alas, the silence is deafening. Thus the reason that Christianity is declining.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2019, 03:58:37 PM »
>>>
You say this doctrine of optimism is false,
<<<

On the contrary, I say no doctrine of optimism is false. I say Postmillennialism is false, which is not a doctrine of optimism, but one of an illusion of hope, idealism, and quixotism. To not put too fine a point on it, it is Pie-in-the-sky dreams of an end time earthly grandeur that cannot be Biblically validated. Thus this doctrine is not optimism, it is a continuation of the same unproven fantasy of world righteousness on earth. True optimism is gleaned from the word of God and validated in its confidence of the totally successful church in that "all Israel shall be saved."

Revelation 7:3
  • "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

"This" is our optimism for the hope of Israel, and it's not as earthly man decides it, but as God had always intended that a great bounty of souls would be saved through the kingdom of God Christ established on earth. That golden age has already come and His Kingdom is expanding as a giant tree expands her branches. But this has nothing to do with dreams of a future golden age on earth, but how Christ is restoring Israel now. This refreshing and Kingdom reign and rule, has already been established. Through the coming of Christ and His kingdom being extended through the gospel to all the nations. Optimism is knowing that the future of the true Israel of God is secure because it is sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13) that no man can thwart. The sealing by the Spirit in the church age is the hope of Israel, and true optimism is knowing God will finish what He started. And then, true to His word, after the sealing there is no golden age, there is the loosing to hurt the earth and sea in His judgment. Am I optimistic that God will save every single soul that He intends in His millennial reign? Absolutely.


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>>>
...but what if Postmillennials think that your doctrine is false, or Premillennialists believe your doctrine is false? What then?
<<<

We could just as easily ask, but what if the Pharisees thought Christ's doctrine was false? Or what if the Roman Catholics think my doctrine is false? Of what if the Premillennialists think your doctrine is false? The answer is always the same. Then the word of the living God will judge between sheep and goat, at the last day. One will be verified as the witness of God written on the pages of the Holy Bible and testified of faithfully, and the rest recognized as presumptions, assumptions, speculations and things read "into" Scripture from the vain imaginations of men.

Ezekiel 34:17
  • "And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats."

I'm comfortable with the Lord judging because unlike man, He judges righteously.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Stan Pat

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2019, 06:28:47 PM »
>>>
...but what if Postmillennials think that your doctrine is false, or Premillennialists believe your doctrine is false? What then?
<<<

We could just as easily ask, but what if the Pharisees thought Christ's doctrine was false? Or what if the Roman Catholics think my doctrine is false? Of what if the Premillennialists think your doctrine is false? The answer is always the same. Then the word of the living God will judge between sheep and goat, at the last day.

Always the "what if" isn't it?  My friend asked me the other day, what if God isn't real?  ???

I agree with you Tony, asking what if proves nothing. It certainly doesn't prove whether Postmillennialism is true or not. We prove that by studying scripture compared with scripture.

I Thess. 5:20-21
"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

It's our duty to "prove" all things, not use what if as a justification not to.

Melanie

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Re: The Doctrine of Postmillennialism
« Reply #119 on: April 02, 2019, 12:30:59 AM »
Kenneth White and Tony Warren,
   I was googling about Reformed Postmillennial doctrines and unfortunately, it brought me to your website, and ultimately your forum. I strongly object to your use of the term "Jewish Dreams" to describe the beliefs of those of Postmillennial faith.

Please read Jewish Dreams

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/jewish_dreams.html

and the rebuttal, A Letter and Response to Jewish Dreams

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/a-letter-in-response-to-jewish-dreams.html

Both are by Professor David Engelsma,  A.B., B.D., Th.M.



 


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