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Author Topic: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?  (Read 5159 times)

David Knoles

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2018, 05:06:45 AM »
Tim, everybody knows that Matthew 19:28 speaks of when Christ returns to the land of Israel and sets up his throne to reign 1000 years. It is then that Christ will reign over Israel. This passage is teaching that there will be a future restoration of the nation of Israel, in which the disciples will exercise an important role in an earthly millennial kingdom (Campbell and Townsend, A Case for Premillennialism, Moody, 1992, 176-178).  John Walvoord says that this “is clearly a picture of the millennial earth, not heaven” (Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come, Moody, 1974, 146). So don't listen to things that can't be proven by scripture. Take the bible literally.

Wanda

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2018, 12:54:23 PM »
Tim, everybody knows that Matthew 19:28 speaks of when Christ returns to the land of Israel and sets up his throne to reign 1000 years.

Everybody doesn't know that. I know that's not true.

George

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2018, 02:30:24 PM »

I think he means the majority of Christians. Those who take the bible very seriously, rather than those claiming there are no fallen angels. Ministers like Dr. John Walvoord are the preeminent theologians on eschatology, and no one tops them. You should not cast off their knowledge and scholarship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walvoord

You can deny Dispensationalism if you like, but not the popularity of its scholars by Christians.

Erik Diamond

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2018, 03:07:04 PM »
Quote
You can deny Dispensationalism if you like, but not the popularity of its scholars by Christians.

You are in error thinking that consensus matters. The "popularity" is what brings death to many people.  Truth is not by consensus or agreement with man's or scholars' words, it is by consensus and agreement with God's Word.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2018, 03:13:20 PM »
Quote from: Tim Norton
Are you saying that  Matthew 19:28 is not future, but now? How do you figure that?

Tony Warren explained:

"This is so widely misunderstood, it's difficult to explain. They were appointed to receive this in the "regeneration," which is man's being born from above a child of God. Regeneration is a re-genesis. A rebirth.

Luke 22:29-30
  • "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
  • That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
The table is furniture that holds food and drink, and in the symbolism of scripture represents a gathering place for spiritual nourishment that the Lord provides for His servants. That's why we "give thanks" at the table, because it represents our partaking of what God has provided for the life giving sustenance of Salvation. It is a representation of His care over the believer (Psalms 23:5) not only physically in physical food and drink, but in our spiritual well-being unto salvation.Christ is explaining that the Kingdom of God "is come" and they would sit at the Lord's table and eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood, a "signification" of their provision in salvation as they are spiritually translated into that Kingdom. Spiritually "regenerated!" When Christ said, "that ye may eat and drink at my table, this is what it refers to. The Lord's table.

Matthew 26:26-28
  • And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
  • And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
  • For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

God has appointed to Christ a kingdom already, and Christ is illustrating that He hath also appointed us this kingdom that we "reign with Him." We reign in being regenerated by the spirit. We are appointed, sanctified, or set apart unto the service of God when we become saved, that we are a ruling body in Christ. When we are appointed to His kingdom, that is the regeneration act of the spirit.

Matthew 19:28-29

  • "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
  • And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
When did the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory? It was after his death and resurrection to the throne of God. Christ was put to death, regenerated, ascended to heaven and the throne by God the father, and because of this we also are regenerated and appointed a kingdom. The Greek word for "regeneration" is [paliggenesia], and means "re-birth" or the act of being "born again".Is that not the Christian regeneration?  It is from the two root words [palin], meaning a repetition or to repeat (and by implication, "again"), and [genesis] meaning birth or nativity. ie, re-birth or as Christians say, to be born again. The regeneration is the act of Christians being made alive again or "regenerated" from being dead in trespass and sin. They are regenerated to life and reign as Kings and Priests with Christ (Romans 8:10-11). "This" is the Kingdom Christ has appointed to His people, and this is the principality in which we rule as kings, having been regenerated.

Granted, there are some Theologians that don't understand how this judgment we were given could possibly be fulfilled, but they neglect that we were "clearly" given "judgment" if we understand Christ's First Resurrection. This was at Christ's first advent, when we were given the Spirit of the Word of the living God. As the 12, we were given rule and judgment. And indeed, the Amillennial position would of necessity require this belief if we are going to be faithful and consistent with the context of Revelation chapter 20. Because clearly it says:

Revelation 20:4

  • And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

There is the fulfillment of Christ's words of the regeneration, the kingdom sitting, and judgment of the twelve tribes. Since Amillennialists believe this refers to Christ's first advent, then of necessity the saints have already been given Judgment when they were given the kingdom here (rev. 20:4), and we have already been given the kingdom (Col. 1:13), and we have already been "regenerated" or reborn from the dead (Titus 3:5), and are already kings who sit at the Lord's table. None of these things are things which has not already been fulfilled if we faithfully follow the scriptures.

Revelation 1:5-6

  • "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
  • And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Because Christ is the first resurection from the dead, we also died with Him and in "that" regeneration were given a kingdom, and sit at His table, and eat and drink, and been given judgment.

Titus 3:4-5
  • "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
  • Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
Allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, we see how God defines the geneneration He spoke of to His apostles. This is the exact same Greek word regenerated [paliggenesia] found in Christ's promise in Matthew 19:28-29 of a kingdom and rule for the Apostles, and indeed us. Because it refers to the Spiritual rebirth of salvation, not a future event."
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2018, 03:28:15 PM »
If anyone wanted to know more about how the Saints Can Judge The Angels during the present Millennial Kingdom may read the following link.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

ZeroCool

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2018, 04:32:13 PM »
 )amen( Erik and  &TY

Reformer

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2018, 06:54:39 PM »
Are you saying that  Matthew 19:28 is not future, but now? How do you figure that?

I can answer this Tim,

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It is not future because it is completely fulfilled in all of its points. The regeneration Christ speaks about is when we are regenerated or reborn in christ. The Regeneration is defined in Titus as when the saints are born or washed free of sin by the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The regeneration is when we become saved through the washing of the holy spirit. The next point is fulfilled also when Christ was resurrected and set in the throne of his glory and is reign now, as required  in that verse. That was when he ascended into heaven fulfilling what was prophesied.

 Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

 Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

And finally, Matthew 19 says this takes place when the disciples will reign with him judging Israel. And that was also fulfilled as we read in Revelation 20 in the first resurrection we live and reign during the 1000 years or millennial period.  he millennial period is now.

 Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We are living and reigning with Christ in heavenly places from the moment we were saved by His grace. So in all points, this scripture has been fulfulled.

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Hammerle Labinowic

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2018, 08:07:26 AM »

If that is true, and if Revelation 12 speaks of the messengers of the church being judged and falling, then doesn't Jude ave something to do with this also?

Jude 1:5-6
"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The angels being the messengers that fell from heaven when Christ was born of the women with 12 stars?

ZeroCool

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2018, 11:46:06 AM »
Makes sense but still have questions.

Tony Warren

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2018, 02:21:09 PM »
>>>
I think he means the majority of Christians.
<<<

I think we've long made it clear from Scripture that consensus of those following any doctrine has "never" been the determining factor of its truth. If it were, the Apostles would all still have been following OT Judaism, or we'd all likely be Roman Catholics today. It doesn't matter how many follow a particular doctrine, what matters is does the Bible agree with such doctrine and behavior. That was the determining factor with King Josiah (2nd Kings 22:11-13), it was the determining factor of the more noble Bereans (Acts 17:11), and it is the determining factor of the faithful Christians today. It is knowledge given by God through wisdom that is the determining factor wherein we understand. Often times more than the vaunted teachers and ministers. Holding to God's word over popular consensus is the Spirit of authority that makes us wise and prudent.

Psalms 119:98-100
  • "Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
  • I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
  • I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts."

...understanding because we hold on to His precepts, rather than man's personal interpretations and suppositions.


Quote
>>>
Those who take the bible very seriously, rather than those claiming there are no fallen angels.
<<<

Those who take the Bible very seriously, are those who follow its words rather than be so arrogant as to attempt to lead them. Thus they know that there are "literally" no fallen angels in scripture, only fallen messengers.

James 2:25
  • "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

There's that word again [aggelos], and it is literally messengers (as it should be), and not Angels.  The very same literal word you see in Revelation chapter 12 is the very same literal word there. And why? Because the word very "literally" means messenger, not angel. Proof? Adam, Job, Noah, Jacob, etc., wouldn't know what a Angel was because there was no such word in their vocabulary. Yet you insist that there were angels in the Old Testament because someone anglisized a Greek word and replaced the Hebrew word [malak] with it? This you call taking the Bible very seriously, literally and scholastically? I would disagree.


Quote
>>>
Ministers like Dr. John Walvoord are the preeminent theologians on eschatology and no one tops them...
<<<

Sola Scriptura, the actually word of God alone and in its entirety, is the only "preeminent" authority on eschatology. Anyone bringing the "unadulterated" word of God that contradicts any Minister, Pope, Priest, Pastor or Leader, always tops them all. Ultimately none of them can stand against the authoritative word of God.

Hebrews 4:12-13
  • "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
  • Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

You say no one tops the vaunted men of renown, I say anyone wielding the word of God that reveals any man's contradiction to it, tops them. For as Martin Luther stated:

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture or clear reasoning that I am in error (for popes and councils have often erred and contradicted themselves) I cannot recant, for I am subject to the Scriptures I have quoted; my conscience is captive to the Word of God." -Martin Luther

I concur!


Quote
>>>
..., you should not cast off their scholarship.
<<<

Matthew 5:30
  • "And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

On the contrary, we should cast off "anything" that is contradictory to the word of God, for it is an offense to God--and that includes popular but vain, empty, unsound, uninformed words that pass in some circles as scholarship.


Quote
>>>
You can deny Dispensationalism if you like, but not the popularity of its scholars by Christians.
<<<

Actually we can deny both Dispensationalism, its scholars and their scholarship. The popularity of false teachers we do not deny. But I submit that there is no sound scholarship in Dispensationalism. Rejecting the Kingdom of God in the body of Christ was popular in Israel 2000 years ago also, yet all true Christians today deny that doctrine and the alleged scholarship that was/is used to support it. Yes, the Scribes, Priests, Sadducees and Pharisees were taught by the prominent, learned and scholarly men of that day, and yet their scholarship was vain (empty) and without valid foundation. Their scholarship neglected the one thing of import, which is the Spirit of truth in the absolute authority of the word of God.

Matthew 7:24-25
  • :Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
  • And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

The truth is built upon the foundation of the word of God, not upon the words of men. Popularity doesn't make a foundation sure, education doesn't make a foundation sure, vaunted leaders don't make a foundation sure, the word of God does.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Tony Warren

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Re: How Shall the Saints Judge Angels?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2018, 02:45:03 PM »
>>>
John Walvoord says that this “is clearly a picture of the millennial earth, not heaven” (Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come, Moody, 1974, 146).
<<<

A lot of people say things that are Biblically indefensible or supportable by Scripture, not the least of which is the quote above. All books should be viewed and judged through the lens and in comparison with the word of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:11-12
  • "The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
  • And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

The truth cannot be comprehended in man's writing of books, nor learned and understood by much study of their words, it is comprehended through the instruction of the Spirit through study of the authoritative word of God. It is the Holy Spirit that imparts or coveys wisdom to us. Anyone making the claim that this doctrine is "clearly" of earth and not heaven (as if that is a given) is presumptuous, since if interpreeted by scripture, it is "clearly" fulfilled and Spiritual. Is that presumptuous? No, because in this case Scripture actually "clearly" illustrates that the regeneration has already come with Christ's departure, and that Christ "clearly" already sits in His kingdom on the throne of His Glory (John 17:5), and that the church "clearly" already has been seated and reigns with him in judgement of Israel. Not because I claim it, but because God said it.

1st Corinthians 6:2-3
  • "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
  • Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

Paul says we will judge the messengers of the church, how much more are we able to judge the things that pertain to the world if we judge the messengers of the kingdom of heaven? When was this judgment given to the saints or messengers of God?

Revelation 20:4
  • " And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

The millennial reign of Christ is now, and if that is true then Judgment has already been given God's people in the form of the authority of the power of the Spirit and the word of God. In our witness or testimony, the word is as fire from our mouths to the unfaithful messengers.

Acts 1:8
  • "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Revelation 11:3-5
  • "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth./i]
  • These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
  • And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed."

Jeremiah 5:14
  • "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."

Indeed, we have been given judgment by the power of the Spirit and the word, and it is with this we shall judge messengers. Messengers who will not heed the call when there is the "voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


 


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